Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

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Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Felix Geyer-3
clamz [1] has been rejected from Debian NEW [2] some time ago.
The FTP assistent that processed the package was of the
opinion that it belongs to contrib instead of main because it's
only useful to download non-free content.

The purpose of clamz is to download MP3 files after buying them
from Amazon. You can download MP3s with every browser though
and Debian even has many MP3 decoders in main.
I don't see why this is a problem.

There is another package in main that is similar in this
respect: youtube-dl.

So what is the reason that clamz can't be in main?

- Felix

[1] http://code.google.com/p/clamz/
[2] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=545717#52


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Ben Hutchings-3
On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 21:14 +0200, Felix Geyer wrote:

> clamz [1] has been rejected from Debian NEW [2] some time ago.
> The FTP assistent that processed the package was of the
> opinion that it belongs to contrib instead of main because it's
> only useful to download non-free content.
>
> The purpose of clamz is to download MP3 files after buying them
> from Amazon. You can download MP3s with every browser though
> and Debian even has many MP3 decoders in main.
> I don't see why this is a problem.
>
> There is another package in main that is similar in this
> respect: youtube-dl.
Some material on YouTube may be under a free licence, e.g.
<http://www.youtube.com/fosdemtalks> (though this isn't explicitly
stated there).

> So what is the reason that clamz can't be in main?

There aren't any clearly DFSG-free tracks on the Amazon MP3 store.

This may be under CC BY-SA but it's not explicitly stated which licence
is used:
<http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Commons-Muse-Me/dp/B002FAQTSA/>
<http://www.thestrongestwhisper.com/cc.html>
"These songs are creative commons protected; they are royalty-free
songs. So I encourage musicians to play, record, and sell your
performances of these songs, and send me mp3 files of them."

Ben.

--
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Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse.

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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Ron Johnson
On 05/29/2010 03:28 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 21:14 +0200, Felix Geyer wrote:
>> clamz [1] has been rejected from Debian NEW [2] some time ago.
>> The FTP assistent that processed the package was of the
>> opinion that it belongs to contrib instead of main because it's
>> only useful to download non-free content.
>>
>> The purpose of clamz is to download MP3 files after buying them
>> from Amazon. You can download MP3s with every browser though
>> and Debian even has many MP3 decoders in main.
>> I don't see why this is a problem.
>>
>> There is another package in main that is similar in this
>> respect: youtube-dl.
>
> Some material on YouTube may be under a free licence, e.g.
> <http://www.youtube.com/fosdemtalks>  (though this isn't explicitly
> stated there).
>

So to get in main, an app isn't allowed to *touch* non-free data?

--
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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Ben Hutchings-3
On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 19:33 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 05/29/2010 03:28 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 21:14 +0200, Felix Geyer wrote:
> >> clamz [1] has been rejected from Debian NEW [2] some time ago.
> >> The FTP assistent that processed the package was of the
> >> opinion that it belongs to contrib instead of main because it's
> >> only useful to download non-free content.
> >>
> >> The purpose of clamz is to download MP3 files after buying them
> >> from Amazon. You can download MP3s with every browser though
> >> and Debian even has many MP3 decoders in main.
> >> I don't see why this is a problem.
> >>
> >> There is another package in main that is similar in this
> >> respect: youtube-dl.
> >
> > Some material on YouTube may be under a free licence, e.g.
> > <http://www.youtube.com/fosdemtalks>  (though this isn't explicitly
> > stated there).
> >
>
> So to get in main, an app isn't allowed to *touch* non-free data?
I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
depends on some non-free library).

Ben.

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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Paul Wise via nm
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Ben Hutchings <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
> conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
> depends on some non-free library).

Should I move libwww-topica-perl to contrib?

Personally I think clamz belongs in main.

--
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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Kartik Mistry
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Paul Wise <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
>> conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
>> depends on some non-free library).
>
> Should I move libwww-topica-perl to contrib?
> Personally I think clamz belongs in main.

I'm also agree here. clamz is not depending on any non-free library to
build or work. We have not exact defination that data/content should
be always dfsg free to use with application in main. (disclaimer: IANL
clause apply.)

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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ben Hutchings-3
On 05/29/2010 09:47 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:

> On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 19:33 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/29/2010 03:28 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2010-05-29 at 21:14 +0200, Felix Geyer wrote:
>>>> clamz [1] has been rejected from Debian NEW [2] some time ago.
>>>> The FTP assistent that processed the package was of the
>>>> opinion that it belongs to contrib instead of main because it's
>>>> only useful to download non-free content.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of clamz is to download MP3 files after buying them
>>>> from Amazon. You can download MP3s with every browser though
>>>> and Debian even has many MP3 decoders in main.
>>>> I don't see why this is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> There is another package in main that is similar in this
>>>> respect: youtube-dl.
>>>
>>> Some material on YouTube may be under a free licence, e.g.
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/fosdemtalks>   (though this isn't explicitly
>>> stated there).
>>>
>>
>> So to get in main, an app isn't allowed to *touch* non-free data?
>
> I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
> conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
> depends on some non-free library).
>

Thanks for the clarification.

However, I just read http://www.debian.org/social_contract and it
says nothing about the kind of *data* that programs can touch; only
software, source code and the licensing of that source code is
mentioned.

--
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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Luca Niccoli
In reply to this post by Ben Hutchings-3
On 30 May 2010 04:47, Ben Hutchings <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
> conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
> depends on some non-free library).

I see a potential problem with this policy:
say I write a DFSG-compliant media player, and I want to add the
ability to download songs from Amazon; I then depend on clamz.
But clamz is in contrib, so my media player must go into contrib, even
though it's free and depends only on free programs, and it's not
useful only in combination with non-free data.
I guess the example would work better with a library, but I think it's
clear enough.

Cheers,

Luca


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Martin Wuertele
* Luca Niccoli <[hidden email]> [2010-05-30 14:31]:

> I see a potential problem with this policy:
> say I write a DFSG-compliant media player, and I want to add the
> ability to download songs from Amazon; I then depend on clamz.
> But clamz is in contrib, so my media player must go into contrib, even
> though it's free and depends only on free programs, and it's not
> useful only in combination with non-free data.
> I guess the example would work better with a library, but I think it's
> clear enough.

You could suggest clamz und detect runtime if it is present. That would
allow your package to go in main and still use the funtionality of clamz
in case it was installed.

Yours
Martin


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Luca Niccoli
On 30 May 2010 16:56, Martin Wuertele <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could suggest clamz und detect runtime if it is present. That would
> allow your package to go in main and still use the funtionality of clamz
> in case it was installed.

Sure; what I wanted to point out (and I probably wasn't clear about
it) is that the dependency relation is transitive, so the policy
assumes that a package depending on one in contrib must be in contrib
too.
On the other hand, the property of "being useful only with non-free
data" it's not carried along with a dependency relation (i.e. a
package depending on an other that is useful only with non-free data
doesn't have to be useful only with non-free data itself), so if this
becomes a criterion to put a package in contrib that assumption is not
grounded any more.
One can surely devise some technical tricks to avoid dependencies, but
it's really the semantics of Depends: and contrib that have become
broken.

Cheers,

Luca


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Felix Geyer-3
In reply to this post by Ben Hutchings-3
On 30.05.2010 04:47, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
> conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
> depends on some non-free library).
>  

Many applications use downloaded non-free content.
For example applications that display weather information,
lyrics or album covers.
Should they all be moved to contrib?

A very similar software is already in Debian main:
Amarok contains two plugins that are able to download/stream
music from Magnatune and MP3tunes; both are music stores.

Also I don't think Amazon has a policy to not allow dfsg-free albums.
So I fail to see how clamz depends on/is only useful with non-free
content.


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Brian M. Carlson
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 08:09:52PM +0200, Felix Geyer wrote:

> On 30.05.2010 04:47, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
> > conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
> > depends on some non-free library).
> >  
>
> Many applications use downloaded non-free content.
> For example applications that display weather information,
> lyrics or album covers.
> Should they all be moved to contrib?
The difference is that those tools provide a reasonable level of
functionality with free data.  Weather information is in the public
domain because there's no originality to it.  Most programs that display
lyrics or album covers are music players, and there is free music
(available in our archive, no less) that they can usefully play.

> A very similar software is already in Debian main:
> Amarok contains two plugins that are able to download/stream
> music from Magnatune and MP3tunes; both are music stores.

Amarok also plays music quite well without those.  I never use Magnatune
or MP3tunes.  Also, there are free Ogg Vorbis files in our archive that
can be played with Amarok.  It is irrelevant that all *I* use it for is
playing music that I've bought on CD; there is a significant amount of
free material that can be used instead.

--
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+1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only
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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Ron Johnson
On 05/30/2010 04:40 PM, brian m. carlson wrote:

> On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 08:09:52PM +0200, Felix Geyer wrote:
>> On 30.05.2010 04:47, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>>> I think the policy being applied is that if a package is only useful in
>>> conjunction with non-free data, it belongs in contrib (just as if it
>>> depends on some non-free library).
>>>
>>
>> Many applications use downloaded non-free content.
>> For example applications that display weather information,
>> lyrics or album covers.
>> Should they all be moved to contrib?
>
> The difference is that those tools provide a reasonable level of
> functionality with free data.

So what?

Clamz just moves some bits from Point A to Point B.

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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

sean finney
In reply to this post by Brian M. Carlson
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 09:40:48PM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> The difference is that those tools provide a reasonable level of
> functionality with free data.  Weather information is in the public
> domain because there's no originality to it.  Most programs that display
> lyrics or album covers are music players, and there is free music
> (available in our archive, no less) that they can usefully play.

so should amavis and spamassassin go to contrib because there aren't
any documented DFSG-free virus and spam going through our mailservers?

better yet, tell me which item in the DFSG says that a program can't be
Free unless all the purpose or data handled by the software is also Free.
hint: there isn't one.

in fact, DFSG #6 (No discrimination against fields of endeavor) could even
be applied to the exact opposite argument.

ftp-master has the final say in what goes into the archive, but this
really sounds like an over-zealous misinterpretation of the DFSG.
i'd hope that this were a miscommunication and/or not the position
of the entire team, because otherwise it would take a GR to overturn
their position.


        sean

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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Yves-Alexis Perez-2
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On dim., 2010-05-30 at 21:18 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> Clamz just moves some bits from Point A to Point B.

I hope you don't use this as a definition of dfsg-free?

Cheers,
--
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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Philipp Kern-4
In reply to this post by Brian M. Carlson
On 2010-05-30, brian m. carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The difference is that those tools provide a reasonable level of
> functionality with free data.  Weather information is in the public
> domain because there's no originality to it.  Most programs that display
> lyrics or album covers are music players, and there is free music
> (available in our archive, no less) that they can usefully play.

Console emulators like zsnes are in main, I think because there used to be
at least one free ROM it can be used with (be it useful or not).

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Fernando Lemos-3
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 5:24 AM, Philipp Kern <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2010-05-30, brian m. carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The difference is that those tools provide a reasonable level of
>> functionality with free data.  Weather information is in the public
>> domain because there's no originality to it.  Most programs that display
>> lyrics or album covers are music players, and there is free music
>> (available in our archive, no less) that they can usefully play.
>
> Console emulators like zsnes are in main, I think because there used to be
> at least one free ROM it can be used with (be it useful or not).

xmame-sdl is in contrib, though. I find it hard to draw the line
between main and contrib unless there's non-free depends, it's all
very subjective.

Regards,


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Christian Surchi
Il giorno lun, 31/05/2010 alle 09.27 -0300, Fernando Lemos ha scritto:
> xmame-sdl is in contrib, though. I find it hard to draw the line
> between main and contrib unless there's non-free depends, it's all
> very subjective.

xmame-sdl is in non-free, IIRC.




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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Yves-Alexis Perez-2
On 05/31/2010 12:54 AM, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> On dim., 2010-05-30 at 21:18 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Clamz just moves some bits from Point A to Point B.
>
> I hope you don't use this as a definition of dfsg-free?
>

Hardly.

My (possibly flawed) thinking was originally raised here:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/05/msg01136.html
> I just read http://www.debian.org/social_contract and it says nothing
 > about the kind of *data* that programs can touch; only software,
 > source code and the licensing of that source code is mentioned.


Sean Finney seems to think the same way I do:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/05/msg01168.html
> better yet, tell me which item in the DFSG says that a program can't be
> Free unless all the purpose or data handled by the software is also Free.
> hint: there isn't one.


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Re: Archive area for clamz (Amazon MP3 downloader)

Brian M. Carlson
In reply to this post by sean finney
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 07:03:16AM +0200, sean finney wrote:
> On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 09:40:48PM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> > The difference is that those tools provide a reasonable level of
> > functionality with free data.  Weather information is in the public
> > domain because there's no originality to it.  Most programs that display
> > lyrics or album covers are music players, and there is free music
> > (available in our archive, no less) that they can usefully play.
>
> so should amavis and spamassassin go to contrib because there aren't
> any documented DFSG-free virus and spam going through our mailservers?

I'll bite.  amavis and spamassassin handle emails, and there are in fact
emails that are free.  CVS commit emails for free software projects are
a great example of this.

> better yet, tell me which item in the DFSG says that a program can't be
> Free unless all the purpose or data handled by the software is also Free.
> hint: there isn't one.
>
> in fact, DFSG #6 (No discrimination against fields of endeavor) could even
> be applied to the exact opposite argument.
>
> ftp-master has the final say in what goes into the archive, but this
> really sounds like an over-zealous misinterpretation of the DFSG.
> i'd hope that this were a miscommunication and/or not the position
> of the entire team, because otherwise it would take a GR to overturn
> their position.
I'm not arguing the DFSG here.  Packages in both main and contrib must
comply with the DFSG, so any non-compliance with the DFSG makes the
entire argument moot since the packages in question then must go to
non-free.

What I *am* arguing is Felix's response to Ben.  What I said was
basically clarifying what Ben said, with respect to Felix's response. My
point was that Amarok in fact does not, under any interpretation, belong
in contrib.  It has useful extensions that involve non-free data, but it
is functional without those.  Therefore, Amarok belongs in main even
under the strictest interpretations of the main/contrib divide.

In retrospect, I probably could have used a better word than
"difference".  What I meant is that the package in question (clamz) is
not in the same category as amarok.  There can be legitimate debate on
the issue for one, and no reasonable disagreement on the other.

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