Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

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Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Frans Pop-3
Package: virtualbox-ose-source
Version: 1.5.2-dfsg2-5
Severity: normal

I wonder what the rationale behind this change was:
  [ Daniel Baumann ]
  * Upgrading virtualbox-ose-modules recommends to depends.

Are people no longer allowed to build kernel modules and copy them
into /lib/modules/... manually?

The reason I currently do that is that I run self-compiled upstream
kernels and vboxdrv source for 1.5.2 does not compile against those.
I have some simple changes that make the compilation succeed (see [1]),
but that means that it is extremely inconvenient to have to use
module-assistant.

Please consider reverting. Recommends should be enough in practice now
that apt/aptitude install recommends by default.

[1] http://vbox.innotek.de/pipermail/vbox-users/2007-October/002372.html

-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.24-rc5 (SMP w/2 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash



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Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Daniel Baumann-4
Frans Pop wrote:
> I wonder what the rationale behind this change was:
>   [ Daniel Baumann ]
>   * Upgrading virtualbox-ose-modules recommends to depends.

if you are wondering, why are you submitting a bug report rather than
asking on the mailinglist?

> Are people no longer allowed to build kernel modules and copy them
> into /lib/modules/... manually?

once you start doing things manually (by neither using m-a nor
l-m-e-2.6), you should also manually fulfil the depends (equis)

> Please consider reverting. Recommends should be enough in practice now
> that apt/aptitude install recommends by default.

virtualbox needs the module, it is useless and doesn't work without it.
that's why it is a depends.

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Internet:       http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/



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Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Frans Pop-3
On Tuesday 18 December 2007, Daniel Baumann wrote:
> if you are wondering, why are you submitting a bug report rather than
> asking on the mailinglist?

Because I think I gave good arguments for a reversal but wanted to give the
opportunity to explain the reasons in case I'd missed something.

> once you start doing things manually (by neither using m-a nor
> l-m-e-2.6), you should also manually fulfil the depends (equis)

That is a rather gross mis-characterization of building out-of-tree modules.
I'd hold the standpoint that _manually_ building out-of-tree modules is the
*normal* case and that _providing_ them pre-packaged is a service.
The use of a tool like module-assistant to build out-of-tree modules is
*optional*.

> > Please consider reverting. Recommends should be enough in practice now
> > that apt/aptitude install recommends by default.
>
> virtualbox needs the module, it is useless and doesn't work without it.
> that's why it is a depends.

But there are completely valid other ways to create/provide a module than
through a package. The packaging system has never been intended to force
users to a certain way of doing things.

As I explained, a Recommends should do _exactly_ what you want: install the
package by default for most users, but allow users who build the module
themselves to do without a package.

IMO the old relationship was correct and sufficient; the new one is too
tight.

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Bug#456989: [Pkg-virtualbox-devel] Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Patrick Winnertz-6
In reply to this post by Daniel Baumann-4
Am Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2007 23:19:53 schrieb Daniel Baumann:

> Frans Pop wrote:
> > I wonder what the rationale behind this change was:
> >   [ Daniel Baumann ]
> >   * Upgrading virtualbox-ose-modules recommends to depends.
>
> if you are wondering, why are you submitting a bug report rather than
> asking on the mailinglist?
>
> > Are people no longer allowed to build kernel modules and copy them
> > into /lib/modules/... manually?
>
> once you start doing things manually (by neither using m-a nor
> l-m-e-2.6), you should also manually fulfil the depends (equis)
>
> > Please consider reverting. Recommends should be enough in practice now
> > that apt/aptitude install recommends by default.
>
> virtualbox needs the module, it is useless and doesn't work without it.
That's not true.
vbox starts up and you are able to modify the machines without the
module...  
should i search for the zitate?
A depends is are packages with are necessary to run the app. This is here
not the case. so a recommends will do the job.

Furthermore we should discuss to raise the -source package to Recommends:
too, since this package is necessary to compile the modules.
> that's why it is a depends.



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 .''`.   Patrick Winnertz <[hidden email]>
:  :' :  GNU/Linux Debian Developer
`. `'`   http://www.der-winnie.de http://d.skolelinux.org/~winnie
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Bug#456989: [Pkg-virtualbox-devel] Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Patrick Winnertz-4
In reply to this post by Frans Pop-3
tag 456989 + pending
thanks

> As I explained, a Recommends should do _exactly_ what you want: install
> the package by default for most users, but allow users who build the
> module themselves to do without a package.
Yes, and that's why i've revert it to a Recommends of
virtualbox-ose-modules. This will be fixed within the next upload of
virtualbox-ose.

Greetings
Winnie


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 .''`.   Patrick Winnertz <[hidden email]>
:  :' :  GNU/Linux Debian Developer
`. `'`   http://www.der-winnie.de http://d.skolelinux.org/~winnie
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

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Bug#456989: [Pkg-virtualbox-devel] Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Hilko Bengen
In reply to this post by Daniel Baumann-4
Daniel Baumann <[hidden email]> writes:

> once you start doing things manually (by neither using m-a nor
> l-m-e-2.6), you should also manually fulfil the depends (equis)

Following the same rationale, one could argue that every user who
wants to build his own kernel should use equivis, too.

Home-built kernels and kernel components are quite common (for
whatever reasons), we should not place restrictions on what our users
can easily achive, in a futile attempt to protect users from
themselves.

> virtualbox needs the module, it is useless and doesn't work without
> it. that's why it is a depends.

It won't start a VM, but you can surely manage VM settings without the
module.

A "Depends:" won't even be of much help to the user who has a -modules
package installed if that package doesn't match his currently running
kernel version. Let's face it: Our dependency system, as good as it
may be, is okay for application software but of limited use for the OS
kernel ant its components.

Cheers,
-Hilko



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Bug#456989: [Pkg-virtualbox-devel] Bug#456989: virtualbox-ose-source: Please change dependency on -ose-modules back to Recommends

Daniel Baumann-4
In reply to this post by Patrick Winnertz-4
Patrick Winnertz wrote:
> Yes, and that's why i've revert it to a Recommends of
> virtualbox-ose-modules. This will be fixed within the next upload of
> virtualbox-ose.

oh dear...

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