Bug#837606: general: system freeze

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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Rouven-Matthias Müller
Package: general
Severity: important

Dear Maintainer,

the system freezes after a random amount of time. the mouse is still moving but
anything else is frozen. what i consider to be a very big bug is the fact, that
a program can cause this effect. it does not matter if that problem is related
to a other program. the problem is that programs can freeze the entire system!

thank you for your attention.
rouven



-- System Information:
Debian Release: 8.5
  APT prefers stable-updates
  APT policy: (500, 'stable-updates'), (500, 'stable')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
Foreign Architectures: i386

Kernel: Linux 3.16.0-4-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system)

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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Ben Caradoc-Davies-3
Rouven,

you have provided very little information so it will be hard for anyone
to reproduce this problem.

- What causes the problem? Are you running any program in particular?

- What is your hardware? Desktop, laptop? Models? Video cards and
drivers can cause of hangs.

- What do you mean by "freezes"? Can you ssh into the machine? Can you
suspend/resume? If you press the power button what happens?

- Does your keyboard work? Are you able to switch to a console with
Ctrl-Alt-F1? Back with Ctrl-F7?

- Any indication of hardware problems such as failing storage or memory
errors? Overheating?

- Wireless keyboard low battery or lost connection?

In any case, the Debian Bug Tracking System is not the most suitable
forum for general support unless you can determine specific steps to
reproduce this problem.

Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies <[hidden email]>
Director
Transient Software Limited <http://transient.nz/>
New Zealand

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Bug#837606: marked as done (general: system freeze)

Debian Bug Tracking System
In reply to this post by Rouven-Matthias Müller
Your message dated Mon, 12 Sep 2016 22:23:14 +0100
with message-id <[hidden email]>
and subject line Re: Bug#837606: additional infromation
has caused the Debian Bug report #837606,
regarding general: system freeze
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
Bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact [hidden email]
immediately.)


--
837606: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=837606
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact [hidden email] with problems

Package: general
Severity: important

Dear Maintainer,

the system freezes after a random amount of time. the mouse is still moving but
anything else is frozen. what i consider to be a very big bug is the fact, that
a program can cause this effect. it does not matter if that problem is related
to a other program. the problem is that programs can freeze the entire system!

thank you for your attention.
rouven



-- System Information:
Debian Release: 8.5
  APT prefers stable-updates
  APT policy: (500, 'stable-updates'), (500, 'stable')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)
Foreign Architectures: i386

Kernel: Linux 3.16.0-4-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=de_DE.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system)

On Mon, 2016-09-12 at 23:07 +0200, Rouven-Matthias Müller wrote:
> it seems very much that you do not understand that it is not applicable for 
> the operating system to be blocked by a other program. the system controlles 
> the programs!!! not the programs the system!!!!
> it does not matter what you think about that subject. it is a fact!
>
> it happened months ago with libre office running on my second laptop. nobody 
> fixed the operating system, they changed something on libre office and so the 
> problem is still there. it does not matter wich program causes it. get that 
> into your smallminded head!

Closing, this is not a useful bug report.

(#837178 is, and that might be the same problem.)

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
Klipstein's 4th Law of Prototyping and Production:
                                    A fail-safe circuit will destroy
others.

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Bug#837606: closed by Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> (Re: Bug#837606: additional infromation)

Rouven-Matthias Müller
In reply to this post by Rouven-Matthias Müller
thanks ben
this was the last time i tried to help debian
i think you have succeded


have a nice day


Am Montag, 12. September 2016, 21:27:04 schrieben Sie:

> This is an automatic notification regarding your Bug report
> which was filed against the general package:
>
> #837606: general: system freeze
>
> It has been closed by Ben Hutchings <[hidden email]>.
>
> Their explanation is attached below along with your original report.
> If this explanation is unsatisfactory and you have not received a
> better one in a separate message then please contact Ben Hutchings
> <[hidden email]> by replying to this email.

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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Abou Al Montacir
In reply to this post by Ben Caradoc-Davies-3
Control: reopen -1

Sorry, I don't think that the best way to solve this issue is to close the bug.

I personally encounter the very same issue when using epiphany browser with lindedIn. Imagine yourself sowing to your colleague something, you are enthusiast, and the unique  Linux user in the company, and proud to do it, but then it hangs. Awful, especially when they tackle you about all the says you did about an well known operating system whith blue screen!

Now back to your request:

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 08:42:59 +1200 Ben Caradoc-Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Rouven,
> 
> you have provided very little information so it will be hard for anyone 
> to reproduce this problem.
Yes, this is true, but not a reason to trash the bug report.
> 
> - What causes the problem? Are you running any program in particular?
The cause is that the system starts swapping on a laptop with 16GiB RAM and 32GiB swap on a 5200R/mn
OK, my hard drive is slow but I don't see why it should hang the system.
> 
> - What is your hardware? Desktop, laptop? Models? Video cards and 
> drivers can cause of hangs.
A Dell pressario series 5500. Intel video card.
> 
> - What do you mean by "freezes"? Can you ssh into the machine? Can you 
> suspend/resume? If you press the power button what happens?
The only thing I can do is hit the power button for more than 4s. Otherwise, nothing works. I have a statical image, mouse can not move anymore, the clock stops updating on gnome panel and lid close dos not react any more. System does not enter sleep mode when I press power button, and even Verr/num led does not react anymore.
> 
> - Does your keyboard work? Are you able to switch to a console with 
> Ctrl-Alt-F1? Back with Ctrl-F7?
No, absolutely no.
> 
> - Any indication of hardware problems such as failing storage or memory 
> errors? Overheating?
No, it happens only when using the browser. It is clear that the browser have a bug but the system is not expected to freeze.
> 
> - Wireless keyboard low battery or lost connection?
No
> 
> In any case, the Debian Bug Tracking System is not the most suitable 
> forum for general support unless you can determine specific steps to 
> reproduce this problem.
However it is not a matter of discussion, it is a matter of tracking a real issue!
> 
> Kind regards,

Thanks for your effort

-- 
Abou Al Montacir


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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Joël Krähemann-2
Hi

I experienced the same as developing GSequencer probably a concurrency
issue. I had to fix it.
This can happen may be with unintialized mutices or conditional locks.

Bests,
Joël


On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Abou Al Montacir
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Control: reopen -1
>
>
> Sorry, I don't think that the best way to solve this issue is to close the
> bug.
>
> I personally encounter the very same issue when using epiphany browser with
> lindedIn. Imagine yourself sowing to your colleague something, you are
> enthusiast, and the unique  Linux user in the company, and proud to do it,
> but then it hangs. Awful, especially when they tackle you about all the says
> you did about an well known operating system whith blue screen!
>
> Now back to your request:
>
>
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2016 08:42:59 +1200 Ben Caradoc-Davies <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Rouven,
>>
>> you have provided very little information so it will be hard for anyone
>> to reproduce this problem.
>
> Yes, this is true, but not a reason to trash the bug report.
>
>>
>> - What causes the problem? Are you running any program in particular?
>
> The cause is that the system starts swapping on a laptop with 16GiB RAM and
> 32GiB swap on a 5200R/mn
> OK, my hard drive is slow but I don't see why it should hang the system.
>
>>
>> - What is your hardware? Desktop, laptop? Models? Video cards and
>> drivers can cause of hangs.
>
> A Dell pressario series 5500. Intel video card.
>
>>
>> - What do you mean by "freezes"? Can you ssh into the machine? Can you
>> suspend/resume? If you press the power button what happens?
>
> The only thing I can do is hit the power button for more than 4s. Otherwise,
> nothing works. I have a statical image, mouse can not move anymore, the
> clock stops updating on gnome panel and lid close dos not react any more.
> System does not enter sleep mode when I press power button, and even
> Verr/num led does not react anymore.
>
>>
>> - Does your keyboard work? Are you able to switch to a console with
>> Ctrl-Alt-F1? Back with Ctrl-F7?
>
> No, absolutely no.
>
>>
>> - Any indication of hardware problems such as failing storage or memory
>> errors? Overheating?
>
> No, it happens only when using the browser. It is clear that the browser
> have a bug but the system is not expected to freeze.
>
>>
>> - Wireless keyboard low battery or lost connection?
>
> No
>
>>
>> In any case, the Debian Bug Tracking System is not the most suitable
>> forum for general support unless you can determine specific steps to
>> reproduce this problem.
>
> Tried forums: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/10/msg01329.html
> However it is not a matter of discussion, it is a matter of tracking a real
> issue!
>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>
>
> Thanks for your effort
>
> --
> Abou Al Montacir
>

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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Abou Al Montacir
Hi Joël,

On Tue, 2016-09-13 at 16:26 +0200, Joël Krähemann wrote:
Hi

I experienced the same as developing GSequencer probably a concurrency
issue. I had to fix it.
This can happen may be with unintialized mutices or conditional locks.
I fully agree there is a bug in epiphany browser, but still think that Linux shall be able to handle correctly such a use case.

In the very old days, the kernel would killed the process, today the swap daemon hangs du to a faulty program. This I can not call improvement over time.
-- 
Cheers, Abou Al Montacir

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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Mathieu Malaterre-4
In reply to this post by Abou Al Montacir
> > - What is your hardware? Desktop, laptop? Models? Video cards and
> > drivers can cause of hangs.
>
> A Dell pressario series 5500. Intel video card.

Could you please check:

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Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Abou Al Montacir
Hi Mathieu

On Tue, 2016-09-13 at 16:36 +0200, Mathieu Malaterre wrote:
> > - What is your hardware? Desktop, laptop? Models? Video cards and
> > drivers can cause of hangs.
>
> A Dell pressario series 5500. Intel video card.

Could you please check:

This seems another issue that I'm experiencing too, but not the same as here.

The current issue is a freeze caused by a buggy program that makes the system unable to recover.

The one you pointed to is a system crash, I do experience too from time to time when waking up my laptop.
However I feel some kernel versions are better than others. Some of them do not almost hang. The latest one hangs frequently.
But this is not related to this bug report.
-- 
Cheers,
Abou Al Montacir

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Abou Al Montacir
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 04:15:54PM +0200, Abou Al Montacir wrote:
> Control: reopen -1
> Sorry, I don't think that the best way to solve this issue is to close the bug.

it seems you haven't realized two things:
- the "general" pseudo package is mostly useless
- when Ben closed this bug he gave a pointer to another bug which
  basically is the same issue *and* a much better bug report. You
  completly failed to reply to *that*.

I'd close this bug again, but I gave up on caring about bugs in the "general"
pseudo package…


--
cheers,
        Holger

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Russ Allbery-2
Holger Levsen <[hidden email]> writes:

> it seems you haven't realized two things:
> - the "general" pseudo package is mostly useless
> - when Ben closed this bug he gave a pointer to another bug which
>   basically is the same issue *and* a much better bug report. You
>   completly failed to reply to *that*.

> I'd close this bug again, but I gave up on caring about bugs in the
> "general" pseudo package…

Should we just disable the general pseudo-package?  Is it serving a
sufficient useful purpose to warrant the constant (if somewhat slow)
stream of misdirected bug reports?

I feel like every bug report that's come into general would have been
better as an email message to debian-user (assuming the reporter wasn't
able to do a more detailed diagnosis and figure out which package was
actually the cuase).

People always get frustrated when we close bugs to general as
unactionable.  Maybe we're just creating an attractive nuisance and should
shut it down entirely to avoid that frustration?

--
Russ Allbery ([hidden email])               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Holger Levsen-2
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 02:27:58PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Should we just disable the general pseudo-package?  Is it serving a
> sufficient useful purpose to warrant the constant (if somewhat slow)
> stream of misdirected bug reports?

no, I think "general" is still useful, there are some valid bugs in it.

"base" OTOH and as previously discussed, can go.
 
> I feel like every bug report that's come into general would have been
> better as an email message to debian-user (assuming the reporter wasn't
> able to do a more detailed diagnosis and figure out which package was
> actually the cuase).

yeah, thats probably also true, but that doesnt change the fact that its
good to have some place for general bugs in Debian.


--
cheers,
        Holger

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Bug#837723: Removing/Disabling the general psuedo package; refering to debian-user@lists.debian.org

Don Armstrong
In reply to this post by Russ Allbery-2
Package: bugs.debian.org
Severity: minor
Control: affects -1 general


On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Holger Levsen <[hidden email]> writes:
> > I'd close this bug again, but I gave up on caring about bugs in the
> > "general" pseudo package…
>
> Should we just disable the general pseudo-package? Is it serving a
> sufficient useful purpose to warrant the constant (if somewhat slow)
> stream of misdirected bug reports?

I personally don't have a problem with disabling it or turning it into
an auto responder which tells the submitter to communicate with
debian-user or another mailing list to figure out the appropriate
package and/or pseudopackage.

Does anyone have a strong objection to this?

--
Don Armstrong                      https://www.donarmstrong.com

"A one-question geek test. If you get the joke, you're a geek: Seen on
a California license plate on a VW Beetle: 'FEATURE'..."
 -- Joshua D. Wachs - Natural Intelligence, Inc.

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Josh Triplett-9
In reply to this post by Russ Allbery-2
Russ Allbery wrote:
> Should we just disable the general pseudo-package?  Is it serving a
> sufficient useful purpose to warrant the constant (if somewhat slow)
> stream of misdirected bug reports?

I don't think so, no.  Seems better for reportbug in the "I don't know
where the bug is" case to just direct the user to debian-user, and
perhaps provide some generally useful information for them to paste into
the mail.

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Re: Bug#837723: Removing/Disabling the general psuedo package; refering to debian-user@lists.debian.org

Don Armstrong
In reply to this post by Don Armstrong
Control: affects -1 reportbug

On Tue, 13 Sep 2016, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 03:24:49PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> > Package: bugs.debian.org
>
> I think this is the wrong package and should rather be handled by
> reportbug…

bugs.debian.org controls whether pseudopackage exist at all; reportbug
is responsible for what reportbug outputs as possible pseudopackages.

> > Does anyone have a strong objection to this?
>  
> I think I have a strong opinion on it, but not a strong objection ;p
>
> also as said already: src:general has some useful bugs, which we cant really
> sensibly reassign.

That's true. There are some bugs which affect lots of packages, but
don't really belong to a single one of them. general is as good a place
as any to coordinate those bugs.

Maybe just changing this text:

   Please enter the name of the package in which you have found a
   problem, or type 'other' to report a more general problem. If you
   don't know what package the bug is in, please contact
   [hidden email] for assistance.

To something like:

   Please enter the name of the package in which you have found a
   problem, If you don't know what package the bug is in, please contact
   [hidden email] for assistance. Type 'other' to report a
   problem in a pseudopackage.

would help address this problem?

--
Don Armstrong                      https://www.donarmstrong.com

They say when you embark on a journey
of revenge
dig two graves.
They underestimate me.
 -- a softer world #560
    http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=560

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Re: Bug#837723: Removing/Disabling the general psuedo package; refering to debian-user@lists.debian.org

Holger Levsen-2
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 04:11:21PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> bugs.debian.org controls whether pseudopackage exist at all; reportbug
> is responsible for what reportbug outputs as possible pseudopackages.

I'm well aware of that…
 
> That's true. There are some bugs which affect lots of packages, but
> don't really belong to a single one of them. general is as good a place
> as any to coordinate those bugs.

agreed. we just need *a* place in the BTS for those…

> Maybe just changing this text:
>
>    Please enter the name of the package in which you have found a
>    problem, or type 'other' to report a more general problem. If you
>    don't know what package the bug is in, please contact
>    [hidden email] for assistance.
>
> To something like:
>
>    Please enter the name of the package in which you have found a
>    problem, If you don't know what package the bug is in, please contact
>    [hidden email] for assistance. Type 'other' to report a
>    problem in a pseudopackage.
>
> would help address this problem?
sounds good/better to me!


--
cheers,
        Holger

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Abou Al Montacir
In reply to this post by Holger Levsen-2
Hi Holger,

On Tue, 2016-09-13 at 17:08 +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 04:15:54PM +0200, Abou Al Montacir wrote:
Control: reopen -1 Sorry, I don't think that the best way to solve this issue is to close the bug.
it seems you haven't realized two things: - the "general" pseudo package is mostly useless
Yes really? I don't agree here. It just pops issues that users can't affect, but there are real issues

- when Ben closed this bug he gave a pointer to another bug which
  basically is the same issue *and* a much better bug report. You
  completly failed to reply to *that*.
Yes that seems very close to the current problem, but is concerning a particular linux image that I'm not using.
Also here the freeze is almost immediate, I cant even type anything when it happens.
I'd close this bug again, but I gave up on caring about bugs in the "general"
pseudo package…
Do you think that closing this bug will help improving user experience? I don't.
I never close bugs on my packages because I think only few users are bothered.

 I do care about any user as I care about myself. This is for me the real meaning of "Debian is the universal operating system". Here universal means all kind of users.
--
Cheers, Abou Al Montacir

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Abou Al Montacir
In reply to this post by Russ Allbery-2
On Tue, 2016-09-13 at 14:27 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Holger Levsen <[hidden email]> writes:

it seems you haven't realized two things: - the "general" pseudo package is mostly useless - when Ben closed this bug he gave a pointer to another bug which basically is the same issue *and* a much better bug report. You completly failed to reply to *that*.
I'd close this bug again, but I gave up on caring about bugs in the "general" pseudo package…
Should we just disable the general pseudo-package? Is it serving a sufficient useful purpose to warrant the constant (if somewhat slow) stream of misdirected bug reports? I feel like every bug report that's come into general would have been better as an email message to debian-user (assuming the reporter wasn't able to do a more detailed diagnosis and figure out which package was actually the cuase). People always get frustrated when we close bugs to general as unactionable. Maybe we're just creating an attractive nuisance and should shut it down entirely to avoid that frustration?
Because you think people will not be frustrated if they experience a bug and that we prevent them to raise bugs? Hiding reality is always bad?. Look at the original reporter last message. He seems quite disappointed by the project reaction. He should feel as we don't care about our users. I personally sometimes feel the same.
--
Cheers, Abou Al Montacir

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Re: Bug#837606: general: system freeze

Abou Al Montacir
In reply to this post by Josh Triplett-9
On Tue, 2016-09-13 at 15:51 -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
Russ Allbery wrote:
Should we just disable the general pseudo-package? Is it serving a sufficient useful purpose to warrant the constant (if somewhat slow) stream of misdirected bug reports?
I don't think so, no. Seems better for reportbug in the "I don't know where the bug is" case to just direct the user to debian-user, and perhaps provide some generally useful information for them to paste into the mail.
And the most probable answer will be we don't experience this bug, we can't help!

We are here facing a bug that appears only on some devices. The issue is tricky and the user does not have the skills to debug. The duty of the project is to help him investigating the right way so that the bug get solved. Not saying ask the community.

I would be in favor that general get forwarded to debian-user, but then it will become a forum and many noise will raise. If developers will be lost there, then what to say for lambda user?

I think warning that general bugs should be first discussed in debian-user is the best option we can afford. But what ever is the option, the result is that a bug does not get solved by just making reporting it more difficult.
-- 
Cheers, Abou Al Montacir

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Re: Bug#837723: Removing/Disabling the general psuedo package; refering to debian-user@lists.debian.org

Abou Al Montacir
In reply to this post by Holger Levsen-2
I'm quite disappointed that instead of trying to fix the bug you are just trying to discuss how to make user life more complicated.
What is the difference between Debian and any commercial SW? Just that it becomes less user friendly with less support despite it is cost free.
-- 
Cheers, Abou Al Montacir

On Wed, 2016-09-14 at 09:10 +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 04:11:21PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
bugs.debian.org controls whether pseudopackage exist at all; reportbug is responsible for what reportbug outputs as possible pseudopackages.
I'm well aware of that…
That's true. There are some bugs which affect lots of packages, but don't really belong to a single one of them. general is as good a place as any to coordinate those bugs.
agreed. we just need *a* place in the BTS for those…
Maybe just changing this text: Please enter the name of the package in which you have found a problem, or type 'other' to report a more general problem. If you don't know what package the bug is in, please contact [hidden email] for assistance. To something like: Please enter the name of the package in which you have found a problem, If you don't know what package the bug is in, please contact [hidden email] for assistance. Type 'other' to report a problem in a pseudopackage. would help address this problem?
sounds good/better to me!

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