Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Juliusz Chroboczek-4
Package: hplip
Version: 3.17.10+repack0-2

My systems are configured to avoid installing systemd.  This makes it
impossible to install hplip:

  hplip depends on policykit-1
  policykit-1 depends on libpam-systemd
  libpam-systemd depends on systemd

If you believe this is an issue with libpam-systemd, please reassign this
bug.  Thanks.

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Juliusz Chroboczek-4
>> My systems are configured to avoid installing systemd.  This makes it
>> impossible to install hplip:

> The 'systemd' package doesn't switch your init system,

I understad that.  However, I try, to the extent possible, to avoid
installing software that I don't understand on the machines that
I maintain, and I do not understand systemd.

I find it surprising that I cannot install the hpps binary without
installing systemd.

> This is not a bug in hplip, nor in any other package down the dependency
> chain; hereby closing then.

I most respectfully disagree -- I should be able to install the hpps
binary without installing systemd.

Please reopen this bug.

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud-5
Le samedi, 3 mars 2018, 15.24:48 h CET Juliusz Chroboczek a écrit :
> I find it surprising that I cannot install the hpps binary without
> installing systemd.
>
> > This is not a bug in hplip, nor in any other package down the dependency
> > chain; hereby closing then.
>
> I most respectfully disagree -- I should be able to install the hpps
> binary without installing systemd.

There are non-Debian distributions which allow you to do that; alternatively
you can recompile src:hplip yourself. Debian does not support avoiding
'*systemd*' packages, as much as it doesn't support avoiding '*selinux*'
packages for instance.

> Please reopen this bug.

Bugs of whishlist severity and tagged wontfix are useless. I am not going to
remove policykit support from Debian's hplip, sorry.

Regards,
    OdyX

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Juliusz Chroboczek-4
>> I most respectfully disagree -- I should be able to install the hpps
>> binary without installing systemd.

> There are non-Debian distributions which allow you to do that;

Are you seriously suggesting that whoever disagrees with you should switch
to a different distribution?

Look, Didier, this is clearly a spurious dependency.  There is no reason
why I should need to install systemd just so I get install a binary.

This can be achieved in many ways, including splitting the package, or
replacing a Depends with a Recommends somewhere.  Please be so kind as to
think about it rather than try to kick me out.

-- Juliusz

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud-5
Le dimanche, 4 mars 2018, 01.10:33 h CET Juliusz Chroboczek a écrit :
> >> I most respectfully disagree -- I should be able to install the hpps
> >> binary without installing systemd.
> >
> > There are non-Debian distributions which allow you to do that;
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that whoever disagrees with you should switch
> to a different distribution?

No. I'm making it clear to you that Debian isn't a distribution that supports
avoiding the systemd binary package, as doing so doesn't make any technical
sense. As mentionned already, the only thing that Debian supports along these
lines is making sure that your init system is not switched unexpectedly to
systemd.

This has been decided multiple times by the Debian Technical Committee:

* https://bugs.debian.org/727708 
        Decide which init system to default to in Debian.
* https://bugs.debian.org/762194
        Automatic switch to systemd on wheezy->jessie upgrades
* https://bugs.debian.org/835507
        Please clarify that sysvinit support decision is not going to expire
* https://bugs.debian.org/883573
        libpam-systemd systemd-sysv ordering
* https://bugs.debian.org/889493
        Review if systemd is reliable enough to be the default

There is _wide_ consensus in the Debian development community that merely
avoiding 'systemd' doesn't make sense and *is not supported*. If that's a
requirement for you, you need to change distribution (or come to understand
systemd).

> Look, Didier, this is clearly a spurious dependency.  There is no reason
> why I should need to install systemd just so I get install a binary.

At the risk of repeating myself: hplip depends on policykit-1, which requires
systemd-login, which needs either systemd-shim (which is _NOT_ systemd, but a
systemd compatibility layer) OR systemd-sysv (which replaces your init system
with systemd). You _can_ install and use hplip in Debian without systemd as
init system.

> This can be achieved in many ways, including splitting the package, or
> replacing a Depends with a Recommends somewhere.  Please be so kind as to
> think about it rather than try to kick me out.

I thought about it, and my definitive answer is no. PolicyKit is important for
software like hplip, and it needs the 'systemd' package. Point.

This is my last message on this subject/bug. If you still disagree with my
evaluation of this bug, you can of course refer this question to the Technical
Committee, following the steps outlined in:
        https://www.debian.org/devel/tech-ctte.en.html#referquestions

That said, it would be mean from me to send you to the Technical Committee
with false hopes.  As mentionned above, my understanding is that there is wide
consensus, also underlined by successive Technical Committee decisions, that
"Debian needs to allow avoiding the 'systemd' package altogether" is _not_
something supported by Debian.  Also, at the risk of using an authority
argument, just be aware that I am currently a member of the TC (see
https://www.debian.org/intro/organization#officers for the current list), and
that I think the responses I have given here are pretty inline with what other
members of the TC would have written.  (Would you submit this question to the
TC, I would obviously stay off the discussion.)

Regards,
    OdyX

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting Didier 'OdyX' Raboud (2018-03-04 11:36:21)
> Le dimanche, 4 mars 2018, 01.10:33 h CET Juliusz Chroboczek a écrit :
> > > > I most respectfully disagree -- I should be able to install the
> > > > hpps binary without installing systemd.
[...]
> > This can be achieved in many ways, including splitting the package,
> > or replacing a Depends with a Recommends somewhere.  Please be so
> > kind as to think about it rather than try to kick me out.
>
> I thought about it, and my definitive answer is no. PolicyKit is
> important for software like hplip, and it needs the 'systemd' package.
> Point.

Is PolicyKit _required_ for _all_ uses of hplip?

Otherwise I believe hplip should only recommend policykit: The purpose
of "Recommends" is to permit "exotic" uses, which I believe this is -
unless hplip *cannot* work *at* *all* wothout PolicyKit in place.


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud-5
Le dimanche, 4 mars 2018, 13.54:27 h CET Jonas Smedegaard a écrit :
> Is PolicyKit _required_ for _all_ uses of hplip?

Good question. I'll admit I was put off my the (exhausting) 'systemd'
argument, and hadn't checked what exactly was done with PolicyKit.

My reading is that PolicyKit is used to grant privilege to run `hp-plugin` for
plugin download, thereby avoiding the need for sudo.

So no, definitely not _required_.

> Otherwise I believe hplip should only recommend policykit: The purpose
> of "Recommends" is to permit "exotic" uses, which I believe this is -
> unless hplip *cannot* work *at* *all* wothout PolicyKit in place.

We don't agree on what constitutes "exotic" use of hplip. Oh well… I suspect a
Recommends is good enough. I'll upload that demotion later today. Just don't
expect that demotion to withhold too many "I can't run hp-plugin" bugs. :)

Cheers,
    OdyX

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting Didier 'OdyX' Raboud (2018-03-04 15:44:12)
> Le dimanche, 4 mars 2018, 13.54:27 h CET Jonas Smedegaard a écrit :
> > Is PolicyKit _required_ for _all_ uses of hplip?
>
> Good question. I'll admit I was put off my the (exhausting) 'systemd'
> argument, and hadn't checked what exactly was done with PolicyKit.

Perfectly understandable.  I admired how long you kept calm!


> > Otherwise I believe hplip should only recommend policykit: The
> > purpose of "Recommends" is to permit "exotic" uses, which I believe
> > this is - unless hplip *cannot* work *at* *all* wothout PolicyKit in
> > place.
>
> We don't agree on what constitutes "exotic" use of hplip. Oh well… I
> suspect a Recommends is good enough. I'll upload that demotion later
> today.

Thanks.


> Just don't expect that demotion to withhold too many "I can't run
> hp-plugin" bugs. :)

I suspect such bugs can be closed with a simple "Please install
policykit (and no, avoiding recommendations is no bug in this package)"
message, but let's see if it comes to that :-)


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Bug#891810: hplip not installable without systemd

Brian Potkin-2
In reply to this post by Didier 'OdyX' Raboud-5
On Sun 04 Mar 2018 at 15:44:12 +0100, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:

> Le dimanche, 4 mars 2018, 13.54:27 h CET Jonas Smedegaard a écrit :
> > Is PolicyKit _required_ for _all_ uses of hplip?
>
> Good question. I'll admit I was put off my the (exhausting) 'systemd'
> argument, and hadn't checked what exactly was done with PolicyKit.
>
> My reading is that PolicyKit is used to grant privilege to run `hp-plugin` for
> plugin download, thereby avoiding the need for sudo.
>
> So no, definitely not _required_.
>
> > Otherwise I believe hplip should only recommend policykit: The purpose
> > of "Recommends" is to permit "exotic" uses, which I believe this is -
> > unless hplip *cannot* work *at* *all* wothout PolicyKit in place.
>
> We don't agree on what constitutes "exotic" use of hplip. Oh well… I suspect a
> Recommends is good enough. I'll upload that demotion later today. Just don't
> expect that demotion to withhold too many "I can't run hp-plugin" bugs. :)

Most users install recommended packages. Those that don't (like me)
have to face the consequences.

Moving to something else brought up in this report: is it really
necessary for the hpps filter to be in hplip? Could it not be put
in printer-driver-postscript-hp as is done for the filter hpcups
in printer-driver-hpcups. (And - if you are in an energetic mood :)
there is #890930 too).

Regards,

Brian.