Bug#907199: weboob, Gratuitous sexual references

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Bug#907199: weboob, Gratuitous sexual references

Chris Lamb -2
Marc,

> > I would be very interested if you could briefly elaborate on why
> > you believe the AH team is not a credible voice or otherwise are
> > unsuitable / unempowered to make such decisions?
> >
> > (Is this "just" a constitutional question?)
>
> Whoua, I cannot convey how bad it feels that every little thing you say
> seem to be scrutinized for some dark meaning…
[…]
> I think I will refrain to talk publicly on this subject for some time or
> until some real necessity, this is really getting me down. If you still
> wish to discuss this _kindly_, then contact me privately.

My terse post was really a genuine and straightforward query
requesting a clarification on your position so I could understand
it better. As you imply, the discussion has been lengthy and tiring
and I cannot admit to have yet read every word written on it, hence
erring on the side of being clear.

Indeed, I am somewhat at a loss to understand how I have given you
the impression of reading "dark" or otherwise incorrect meanings
into what you say. :(

I hope you feel you can rejoin the discussion soon. Again, it was
(genuinely) just a question so we did not exert more brain cycles
not knowing each other's position.


Best wishes

--
      ,''`.
     : :'  :     Chris Lamb
     `. `'`      [hidden email] / chris-lamb.co.uk
       `-

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Bug#906119: Should the weboob package stay in Debian?

Chris Lamb -2
In reply to this post by Martina Ferrari
block 914179 by 907199
thanks

Martín Ferrari wrote:

> If this dispute cannot be resolved amicably and timely, we believe the
> FTP-master team can -and should- unilaterally remove the package from
> the archive.

This has been filed as #914179.


Regards,

--
      ,''`.
     : :'  :     Chris Lamb
     `. `'`      [hidden email] / chris-lamb.co.uk
       `-

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Bug#907199: Should the weboob package stay in Debian?

Juan Jiménez
In reply to this post by Ian Jackson-2
Pandering to the monkeys is hardly a way to run your organization. Have you checked how many OTHER packages are named with the letters "boob" in your repo? Please. The correct decision is to tell the monkeys to get a life.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 01:02:34 +0100 =?UTF-8?Q?Mart=c3=adn_Ferrari?= <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am writing on behalf of the Anti-Harassment team, as our input has
> been requested on this issue.
>
> Our understanding, after reading the mail threads and bug reports, is
> that the package in its current shape is against the Debian CoC ("be
> respectful") -- while it's not a "flagrant" violation,
>
> As Gregor Herrmann eloquently[1] put it, it's "not ok to use the boobs
> theme for a web scraper or other software unrelated to boobs [sic]
> themselves, where its only function is to make a small group of users
> giggle while objectifying, offending or boring the rest of the world."
>
> We appreciate uploading a new version without the insults (and thank
> Jonathan Dowland for his efforts[2][3] on this front). Please note that
> the insults and homophobic language *is* a flagrant violation of
> Debian's CoC and in our opinion, Debian should not ship new software
> including them.
>
> We believe the next release should not contain the package in question
> in its current state; our recommendation would be to either work with
> upstream on correcting these issues, forking and/or patching it, or just
> removing the package. There is still enough time to find a solution that
> respects our users and our community while keeping a useful piece of
> software in the archive. We would also encourage all parties to be
> respectful, and to observe the community needs for a healthy environment
> where such puerile humour taken at the expense of other people is not
> acceptable any more.
>
> If this dispute cannot be resolved amicably and timely, we believe the
> FTP-master team can -and should- unilaterally remove the package from
> the archive. We think that invoking the CTTE or calling a GR would
> unnecessarily cause more disruption and draw energy from the community.
>
>
> Martín Ferrari, on behalf of the Anti-Harassment team.
>
>
> [1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00428.html
> [2]: https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/228
> [3]: https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/issues/154
>
> --
> Martín Ferrari (Tincho)
>
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Bug#907199: Should the weboob package stay in Debian?

Juan Jiménez
In reply to this post by Ian Jackson-2
The Anti Harassment Team must be disbanded immediately and without recourse as its name is offensive. It contains the word "ass."  Unless of course it is a reference to the intelligence of its members.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 01:02:34 +0100 =?UTF-8?Q?Mart=c3=adn_Ferrari?= <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am writing on behalf of the Anti-Harassment team, as our input has
> been requested on this issue.
>
> Our understanding, after reading the mail threads and bug reports, is
> that the package in its current shape is against the Debian CoC ("be
> respectful") -- while it's not a "flagrant" violation,
>
> As Gregor Herrmann eloquently[1] put it, it's "not ok to use the boobs
> theme for a web scraper or other software unrelated to boobs [sic]
> themselves, where its only function is to make a small group of users
> giggle while objectifying, offending or boring the rest of the world."
>
> We appreciate uploading a new version without the insults (and thank
> Jonathan Dowland for his efforts[2][3] on this front). Please note that
> the insults and homophobic language *is* a flagrant violation of
> Debian's CoC and in our opinion, Debian should not ship new software
> including them.
>
> We believe the next release should not contain the package in question
> in its current state; our recommendation would be to either work with
> upstream on correcting these issues, forking and/or patching it, or just
> removing the package. There is still enough time to find a solution that
> respects our users and our community while keeping a useful piece of
> software in the archive. We would also encourage all parties to be
> respectful, and to observe the community needs for a healthy environment
> where such puerile humour taken at the expense of other people is not
> acceptable any more.
>
> If this dispute cannot be resolved amicably and timely, we believe the
> FTP-master team can -and should- unilaterally remove the package from
> the archive. We think that invoking the CTTE or calling a GR would
> unnecessarily cause more disruption and draw energy from the community.
>
>
> Martín Ferrari, on behalf of the Anti-Harassment team.
>
>
> [1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00428.html
> [2]: https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/228
> [3]: https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/issues/154
>
> --
> Martín Ferrari (Tincho)
>
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Bug#907199: weboob, Gratuitous sexual references

Marc Dequènes (Duck)
In reply to this post by Ian Jackson-2
Quack,

So be it.

Now as a last word I'd like to express how I deeply disagree with how
this was conducted. Despite Chris' good words I still feel I had to
justify myself and my opinion, which already feels bad, but I had no
reply to my suggestion to extend the Anti-Harassment team's scope (which
would not have changed the outcome). Filing a removal bug was clearly a
threat. There was no consensus in the FTPmasters team (according to
threads on the MLs), Chris did not use his position as DPL either.
*Unilaterally* taking decisions in a project is a clear disrespect for
all contributors and the structures we established to work together
despite our disagreements. As a DPL you can settle this stalled dispute
but this power is limited in time and can be revoked by GR. As much as I
understand your wish to "make things right", enforcing your opinion no
matter what hurts people in the way and that's not gonna make them
change opinion.

Sometimes it really feels bad to be in Debian…
\_o<

--
Marc Dequènes

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Bug#907199: weboob, Gratuitous sexual references

Ian Jackson-2
Marc Dequènes (duck) writes ("Re: weboob, Gratuitous sexual references"):
> *Unilaterally* taking decisions in a project

I feel I need to set the record straight.  This decision was not taken
unilaterally.

The process was:

  * We had a conversation involving you as maintainer; you
    decided that unless upstream were convinced to change[1],
    the package should stay in Debian in its current form.

  * I disagreed with your decision as maintainer and raised the
    matter with various project officials to ask the correct
    route to address my concerns.

  * After discussion (including opinions from DPL, the release team,
    and others), the antiharassment team concluded that this was
    within their remit, discussed it amongst themselves, and
    recommended that the package, in its current form, should not be
    included in Debian.

  * That recommendation from AH was forwarded (via this bug) to the
    ftpmasters, who are actually finally responsible for such
    decisions.

  * Upstream were not convinced to change.  ftpmaster decided to
    follow AH's recommendation.

So ultimately, this decision was taken by the ftpmaster team, on
recommendation from the AH team, with advice on process from the DPL.

I think if you disagree, you may escalate to the TC or to a GR.

> Sometimes it really feels bad to be in Debian…

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I don't think it was possible to resolve
this disagreement without making someone feel like that.

Ian.

--
Ian Jackson <[hidden email]>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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Bug#907199: Need alternative

Bardot Jérôme
In reply to this post by Ian Jackson-2
Hello,


Disclamer: i did not read all bug posts.


I just see you removed weboob from repositories. Well, do you will
provide an alternative ?

I don’t care about my software names' while it does the job.

If i remember well  the name is a word game. The weboob team had remove
insults in their code no ?

They do a great job with their piece of software why should not respect
their touch of humor ? (people who don’t like it, will not install it by
the way)


Back to my concern i use mostly the bank part for custom dashboards. If
you can provide an alternative it would be cool. I’m sure a lot of
Debian users use weboob and are like me.




Jérôme




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