Buster without systemd?

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Buster without systemd?

Marc Shapiro-3
Supposedly, one can install/upgrade to Buster while maintaining sysv as
init.  Or has this changed.  Over the past several months I have been
attempting to upgrade to Buster, but I have been completely unsuccessful.

Has anyone managed to upgrade to Buster without installing systemd, or
jumping through hoops that would drive a lion tamer mad?

I made a copy of all of my partitions so that I could do the upgrade
while maintaining Stretch in case something went wrong. I'm glad that I did!

The first time that I tried this, I actually managed to upgrade to
Buster and have everything appear to work.  Then I realized that I had
only done an "upgrade" but not a "full-upgrade".  After that, X would
not start.  I have, as I said, spent several months trying to get X
working on Buster without systemd.  I have not been successful.  None of
my later attempts ever got a working Buster with X, at all.

Is it possible to do what I want?  Or, after 21 to 22 years of using
Debian (since Bo), do I have to switch to another linux distro?  I would
rather not have to switch, but you choose the distro that suits your
needs, and if Debian no longer suits my needs then I may have to.


Marc



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Re: Buster without systemd?

The Wanderer
On 2020-03-22 at 21:21, Marc Shapiro wrote:

> Supposedly, one can install/upgrade to Buster while maintaining sysv
> as init.  Or has this changed.  Over the past several months I have
> been attempting to upgrade to Buster, but I have been completely
> unsuccessful.
>
> Has anyone managed to upgrade to Buster without installing systemd,
> or jumping through hoops that would drive a lion tamer mad?
>
> I made a copy of all of my partitions so that I could do the upgrade
>  while maintaining Stretch in case something went wrong. I'm glad
> that I did!
>
> The first time that I tried this, I actually managed to upgrade to
> Buster and have everything appear to work.  Then I realized that I
> had only done an "upgrade" but not a "full-upgrade".  After that, X
> would not start.  I have, as I said, spent several months trying to
> get X working on Buster without systemd.  I have not been successful.
> None of my later attempts ever got a working Buster with X, at all.
How are you starting X?

I start it manually from the console via startx, and in order for that
to work, I've needed the xserver-xorg-legacy package and some matching
settings configured locally.

IIRC that around the time of the systemd switchover (not necessarily
tied to systemd itself), there were changes made in the way X is to be
launched, such that with the right configuration it can be run without
root rights - but that if you don't have that configuration, and you're
not launching X as root directly, you need this "legacy" setup. Last
time I was looking at it, I don't think I found any practical way to do
that configuration without systemd or some replication of part of its
functionality.


For what it's worth, I track current testing, and the only
systemd-related packages on my system that I know of are libsystemd0 and
udev. I certainly don't have any problems with starting X.

I did the initial upgrade around the time of the original init-systems
GR, and have been tracking testing in this way ever since; the most I've
had to do is wrangle some package pins to avoid having some dependency
attempt to install libpam-systemd (and therefore switch the init system
to systemd) on package install or dist-upgrade, and that hasn't been
particularly hard for quite some time now.

--
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw


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Re: Buster without systemd?

Sven Joachim
On 2020-03-22 21:57 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2020-03-22 at 21:21, Marc Shapiro wrote:
>
>> Supposedly, one can install/upgrade to Buster while maintaining sysv
>> as init.  Or has this changed.  Over the past several months I have
>> been attempting to upgrade to Buster, but I have been completely
>> unsuccessful.
>>
>> Has anyone managed to upgrade to Buster without installing systemd,
>> or jumping through hoops that would drive a lion tamer mad?
>>
>> I made a copy of all of my partitions so that I could do the upgrade
>>  while maintaining Stretch in case something went wrong. I'm glad
>> that I did!
>>
>> The first time that I tried this, I actually managed to upgrade to
>> Buster and have everything appear to work.  Then I realized that I
>> had only done an "upgrade" but not a "full-upgrade".  After that, X
>> would not start.  I have, as I said, spent several months trying to
>> get X working on Buster without systemd.  I have not been successful.
>> None of my later attempts ever got a working Buster with X, at all.
>
> How are you starting X?
>
> I start it manually from the console via startx, and in order for that
> to work, I've needed the xserver-xorg-legacy package and some matching
> settings configured locally.
>
> IIRC that around the time of the systemd switchover (not necessarily
> tied to systemd itself), there were changes made in the way X is to be
> launched, such that with the right configuration it can be run without
> root rights - but that if you don't have that configuration, and you're
> not launching X as root directly, you need this "legacy" setup. Last
> time I was looking at it, I don't think I found any practical way to do
> that configuration without systemd or some replication of part of its
> functionality.

It should be possible to run X without root rights if you install
elogind.  What the X server needs is access to your input devices, and
logind provides that to locally logged in users.

With systemd-logind startx works out of the box, no configuration
necessary.  Since elogind is a fork of systemd-logind, I suspect the
same holds for it, but I cannot easily test that.

Cheers,
       Sven

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Marc Shapiro-3
Marc Shapiro composed on 2020-03-22 18:21 (UTC-0700):

> after 21 to 22 years of using
> Debian (since Bo), do I have to switch to another linux distro?

AFAIK, no one has ever died as a consequence of using an OS with systemd. So, no,
you don't "have to" switch to another distro. You can do as most have done, fondly
or not so fondly remember sysvinit, and accept the change, whether for better or
worse.

OTOH, would switching to Devuan really be "switching" to another distro? That's
like "switching" to any of the zillion distros based on Debian that include Debian
repos in sources.list. They're mostly Debian but with different defaults,
different far more the interface than the guts that make Debian debian.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Renato Gallo

linux without systemd = race condition risks = why in hell anyone would want to do it ?

----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "Felix Miata" <[hidden email]>
A: "debian-user" <[hidden email]>
Inviato: Lunedì, 23 marzo 2020 8:08:28
Oggetto: Re: Buster without systemd?

Marc Shapiro composed on 2020-03-22 18:21 (UTC-0700):

> after 21 to 22 years of using
> Debian (since Bo), do I have to switch to another linux distro?

AFAIK, no one has ever died as a consequence of using an OS with systemd. So, no,
you don't "have to" switch to another distro. You can do as most have done, fondly
or not so fondly remember sysvinit, and accept the change, whether for better or
worse.

OTOH, would switching to Devuan really be "switching" to another distro? That's
like "switching" to any of the zillion distros based on Debian that include Debian
repos in sources.list. They're mostly Debian but with different defaults,
different far more the interface than the guts that make Debian debian.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Buster without systemd?

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Marc Shapiro-3
On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 06:21:56PM -0700, Marc Shapiro wrote:
> Supposedly, one can install/upgrade to Buster while maintaining sysv
> as init.  Or has this changed.  Over the past several months I have
> been attempting to upgrade to Buster, but I have been completely
> unsuccessful.
>
> Has anyone managed to upgrade to Buster without installing systemd,
> or jumping through hoops that would drive a lion tamer mad?

I'm currently running Buster, upgraded from Stretch. It makes sense
to either raise sysv-rc or to lower systemd in your apt preferences:
some more advanced installers tend to come up with creative solutions
to dependency problems. Nothing that can't be managed, but...

Note that if you expect some "advanced desktop stuff" things might
become more difficult.

> Is it possible to do what I want?  Or, after 21 to 22 years of using
> Debian (since Bo), do I have to switch to another linux distro?  I
> would rather not have to switch, but you choose the distro that
> suits your needs, and if Debian no longer suits my needs then I may
> have to.

Less drama and more helping hands would be appreciated. There is a
Debian sysvinit maintainers group who maintain the sysv-rc package.

Devuan could use some help too. Drama unnecessarily burns up CPU
cycles.

Cheers
-- tomás
>
>
> Marc
>
>
>

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Re: Buster without systemd?

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by The Wanderer
On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 09:57:36PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2020-03-22 at 21:21, Marc Shapiro wrote:
>
> > [...]  Then I realized that I
> > had only done an "upgrade" but not a "full-upgrade".  After that, X
> > would not start [...]

> How are you starting X?
>
> I start it manually from the console via startx, and in order for that
> to work, I've needed the xserver-xorg-legacy package and some matching
> settings configured locally.

Oh, yes, forgot about that one (since it came up with Stretch). I'm
running xserver-xorg-legacy too.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Buster without systemd?

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Renato Gallo
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 08:48:57AM +0100, Renato Gallo wrote:
>
> linux without systemd = race condition risks = why in hell anyone would want to do it ?

I think we've had enough of this already.

See, Marc?

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Reco
In reply to this post by Renato Gallo
        Hi.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 08:48:57AM +0100, Renato Gallo wrote:
>
> linux without systemd = race condition risks = why in hell anyone would want to do it ?

<Carefully looks at openwrt, Debian 10 and android>.
Rly?

Reco

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Renato Gallo


Rly, systemd is, between things, a way to be sure when and after what something starts isn't it ?

----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "Reco" <[hidden email]>
A: "debian-user" <[hidden email]>
Inviato: Lunedì, 23 marzo 2020 9:27:29
Oggetto: Re: Buster without systemd?

Hi.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 08:48:57AM +0100, Renato Gallo wrote:
>
> linux without systemd = race condition risks = why in hell anyone would want to do it ?

<Carefully looks at openwrt, Debian 10 and android>.
Rly?

Reco

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Reco
Please do not top post. Reply to the list.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 09:59:25AM +0100, Renato Gallo wrote:
>
>
> Rly, systemd is, between things, a way to be sure when and after what something starts isn't it ?

Does not make it any special, in comparing to any other init system in
existence.

Reco

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Jude DaShiell-3
In reply to this post by Marc Shapiro-3
There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
That system maintained sysv and still has support.

#!/usr/bin/env bash
# file: getdevuan.sh - get devuan iso.
wget -bc http://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/minimal-live/devuan_ascii_2.1_amd64_minimal-live.iso
On Sun, 22 Mar 2020,
Marc Shapiro wrote:

> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:21:56
> From: Marc Shapiro <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Buster without systemd?
> Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 01:39:10 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: [hidden email]
>
> Supposedly, one can install/upgrade to Buster while maintaining sysv as init.?
> Or has this changed.? Over the past several months I have been attempting to
> upgrade to Buster, but I have been completely unsuccessful.
>
> Has anyone managed to upgrade to Buster without installing systemd, or jumping
> through hoops that would drive a lion tamer mad?
>
> I made a copy of all of my partitions so that I could do the upgrade while
> maintaining Stretch in case something went wrong. I'm glad that I did!
>
> The first time that I tried this, I actually managed to upgrade to Buster and
> have everything appear to work.? Then I realized that I had only done an
> "upgrade" but not a "full-upgrade".? After that, X would not start.? I have,
> as I said, spent several months trying to get X working on Buster without
> systemd.? I have not been successful.? None of my later attempts ever got a
> working Buster with X, at all.
>
> Is it possible to do what I want?? Or, after 21 to 22 years of using Debian
> (since Bo), do I have to switch to another linux distro?? I would rather not
> have to switch, but you choose the distro that suits your needs, and if Debian
> no longer suits my needs then I may have to.
>
>
> Marc
>
>
>
>

--

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Re: Buster without systemd?

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 08:37:47AM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
> That system maintained sysv and still has support.

Going by [1], I'd guess Devuan ASCII is roughly Debian Stretch. More
knowledgeable statements always welcome, of course.

Cheers
[1] https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt
-- tomás

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by Jude DaShiell-3
On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
> That system maintained sysv and still has support.

ASCII is Stretch without systemd or any of the dependencies.  Devuan
hasn't release its "Buster" version yet.

B

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Re: Buster without systemd?

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 07:28:25AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
> Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
> > That system maintained sysv and still has support.
>
> ASCII is Stretch without systemd or any of the dependencies.  Devuan
> hasn't release its "Buster" version yet.

Thanks for confirming :-)

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Michael Howard
In reply to this post by Patrick Bartek-2
On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
> Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
>> That system maintained sysv and still has support.
> ASCII is Stretch without systemd or any of the dependencies.  Devuan
> hasn't release its "Buster" version yet.
>
> B
>
It can be upgraded to 'beowulf' using apt of course.

--
Michael Howard

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Tony van der Hoff-7
On 23/03/2020 15:15, Michael Howard wrote:
> On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
>> Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
<snip>

I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the
list, there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so
afraid of systemd?

I have  used it since the beginning of jessie, through stretch, and now
buster, and have had no problems with it.

I ask the question in all innocence, purely to understand whypeople seem
to want to jump through hoops to avoid it.

--
Tony van der Hoff        | mailto:[hidden email]
Buckinghamshire, England |

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Re: Buster without systemd?

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 04:31:33PM +0000, Tony van der Hoff wrote:

> On 23/03/2020 15:15, Michael Howard wrote:
> >On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >>On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
> >>Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> <snip>
>
> I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset
> the list, there's been enough of that already, but why are some
> people so afraid of systemd?
>
> I have  used it since the beginning of jessie, through stretch, and
> now buster, and have had no problems with it.
>
> I ask the question in all innocence, purely to understand whypeople
> seem to want to jump through hoops to avoid it.
I think you'll get as many answers as people out there. In my case,
I'd like to keep alternatives to systemd viable. At the same time,
I want the discussion to stay civil and don't want to see anyone
denigrated over it. Proponents and opponents likewise.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Michael Howard
In reply to this post by Tony van der Hoff-7
On 23/03/2020 16:31, Tony van der Hoff wrote:

> On 23/03/2020 15:15, Michael Howard wrote:
>> On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
>>> Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
> <snip>
>
> I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the
> list, there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so
> afraid of systemd?
Afraid?

--
Michael Howard

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Re: Buster without systemd?

Dan Ritter-4
In reply to this post by Tony van der Hoff-7
Tony van der Hoff wrote:

> On 23/03/2020 15:15, Michael Howard wrote:
> > On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
> > > Jude DaShiell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> <snip>
>
> I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the list,
> there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so afraid of
> systemd?
 
Nobody, to a first approximation, is afraid of systemd.

> I ask the question in all innocence, purely to understand whypeople seem to
> want to jump through hoops to avoid it.


systemd started with a good idea: let's make an init system that solves
the problems of sysvinit. They then proceeded to ignore the long
history of people writing software to do that, and chose:

- a heavyweight implementation
- written as a series of executables that interlock with each
- which try to handle:

    - process 0 init existence
    - system startup and shutdown
    - daemon start, status check and stop

Everything above this line is generally agreed to be the
province of an init system. Systemd also wants to take over:

    - system logging
    - network interface configuration, including DHCP
    - DNS resolver selection
    - network time protocol
    - cron
    - login management and authentication/authorization
    - setup of virtual machines
    - package management

I see the attitude of most people as being "I don't care, as
long as it works."  That's a sane attitude.

The problem is that for me -- and many other people -- there is
a long history of not wanting to change a working system unless
the benefits of that change are clear and worthwhile. I judge
that systemd is less reliable than existing systems, causes
needless chaos, and does not deliver benefits that are not
available from other, less disruptive systems.

Not only does it have to work, it has to work well.

-dsr-

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