Cinnamon environment now available in testing

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Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Margarita Manterola
Hi all!

After quite a few months of polishing packages, fixing issues, and
making sure that everything builds where it's supposed to build,
cinnamon is now fully available in testing.

If you already have a desktop environment, you can install the
packages needed by cinnamon by doing: apt-get install cinnamon-core.

There's also cinnamon-desktop-environment, that pulls in usually
needed packages, for the users that don't have another desktop
environment installed.

There are likely quite a number of bugs that we haven't found yet, we
will welcome bug reports.

If you are interested in helping us out, we work through the
pkg-cinnamon project in alioth, which also includes it's own mailing
list, and you can contact us through #debian-cinnamon in OFTC.

--
Cheers,
Marga


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RE: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Noel David Torres Taño
Does this Cinnamon for Debian include systemd ?


Enviado de Samsung Mobile


-------- Mensaje original --------
De: Margarita Manterola
Fecha:04/09/2014 7:52 (GMT+00:00)
Para: Debian Development
Asunto: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Hi all!

After quite a few months of polishing packages, fixing issues, and
making sure that everything builds where it's supposed to build,
cinnamon is now fully available in testing.

If you already have a desktop environment, you can install the
packages needed by cinnamon by doing: apt-get install cinnamon-core.

There's also cinnamon-desktop-environment, that pulls in usually
needed packages, for the users that don't have another desktop
environment installed.

There are likely quite a number of bugs that we haven't found yet, we
will welcome bug reports.

If you are interested in helping us out, we work through the
pkg-cinnamon project in alioth, which also includes it's own mailing
list, and you can contact us through #debian-cinnamon in OFTC.

--
Cheers,
Marga


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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Margarita Manterola
Hi,

On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM, envite <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Does this Cinnamon for Debian include systemd ?

Yes, for Linux it includes systemd.  For kFreeBSD it should be able to
work without systemd, but some packages haven't compiled yet due to
missing dependencies.


--
Besos,
Marga


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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Steve McIntyre
In reply to this post by Margarita Manterola
Marga wrote:

>Hi all!
>
>After quite a few months of polishing packages, fixing issues, and
>making sure that everything builds where it's supposed to build,
>cinnamon is now fully available in testing.
>
>If you already have a desktop environment, you can install the
>packages needed by cinnamon by doing: apt-get install cinnamon-core.
>
>There's also cinnamon-desktop-environment, that pulls in usually
>needed packages, for the users that don't have another desktop
>environment installed.
>
>There are likely quite a number of bugs that we haven't found yet, we
>will welcome bug reports.
>
>If you are interested in helping us out, we work through the
>pkg-cinnamon project in alioth, which also includes it's own mailing
>list, and you can contact us through #debian-cinnamon in OFTC.

Hi Marga!

If you're ready for it already, could you set up tasks for Cinnamon
too? If you do that, we could make it easier for d-i and CDs to set
Cinnamon up as a desktop option using tasksel.

--
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You raise the blade, you make the change... You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane...


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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Adam Borowski-3
In reply to this post by Margarita Manterola
On Thu, Sep 04, 2014 at 02:57:16PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM, envite <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Does this Cinnamon for Debian include systemd ?
>
> Yes, for Linux it includes systemd.  For kFreeBSD it should be able to
> work without systemd, but some packages haven't compiled yet due to
> missing dependencies.

If Cinnamon can work without systemd, why is it a hard dependency?

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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Cameron Norman
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Adam Borowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 04, 2014 at 02:57:16PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM, envite <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Does this Cinnamon for Debian include systemd ?
>>
>> Yes, for Linux it includes systemd.  For kFreeBSD it should be able to
>> work without systemd, but some packages haven't compiled yet due to
>> missing dependencies.
>
> If Cinnamon can work without systemd, why is it a hard dependency?

TL;DR `sudo apt-get install systemd-shim`

You are mistaken, it is not. What I suspect happened is that something
depended on logind (libpam-systemd) and libpam-systemd depends on
"systemd-sysv | systemd-shim". This means that systems will have their
init system switched even if unneeded unless they predict the issue or
track down the dependency tree, then learn they have to install
systemd-shim (which does not exist on Wheezy, so you will have to
install systemd-sysv then another init after the upgrade). This bug
has been reported and marked as WONTFIX for reasons that have not been
fully explained (it is claimed people with init=/lib/systemd/systemd
in their kcmdline will experience breakage due to systemd-shim
conflicting with systemd-sysv, however this is actually not likely at
all according to the shim maintainer).

Best,
--
Cameron Norman


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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Noel David Torres Taño
On Friday, 5 de September de 2014 02:37:18 Cameron Norman escribió:

> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Adam Borowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 04, 2014 at 02:57:16PM +0200, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM, envite <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > Does this Cinnamon for Debian include systemd ?
> >>
> >> Yes, for Linux it includes systemd.  For kFreeBSD it should be able to
> >> work without systemd, but some packages haven't compiled yet due to
> >> missing dependencies.
> >
> > If Cinnamon can work without systemd, why is it a hard dependency?
>
> TL;DR `sudo apt-get install systemd-shim`
>
> You are mistaken, it is not. What I suspect happened is that something
> depended on logind (libpam-systemd) and libpam-systemd depends on
> "systemd-sysv | systemd-shim". This means that systems will have their
> init system switched even if unneeded unless they predict the issue or
> track down the dependency tree, then learn they have to install
> systemd-shim (which does not exist on Wheezy, so you will have to
> install systemd-sysv then another init after the upgrade). This bug
> has been reported and marked as WONTFIX for reasons that have not been
> fully explained (it is claimed people with init=/lib/systemd/systemd
> in their kcmdline will experience breakage due to systemd-shim
> conflicting with systemd-sysv, however this is actually not likely at
> all according to the shim maintainer).
>
> Best,
> --
> Cameron Norman
So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user) path.

Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?

Regards

Noel
er Envite

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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Josselin Mouette
Noel Torres wrote:
> So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user) path.
>
> Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?

No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies should
reflect that.

And from a purely functional point of view, it makes more sense to bring
by default the standard, upstream-supported, well-tested solution, than
the Debuntu-specific hack to use it with an inferior init system.

Cheers,
--
 .''`.        Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
  `-



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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Noel David Torres Taño
On Friday, 5 de September de 2014 09:57:34 Josselin Mouette escribió:

> Noel Torres wrote:
> > So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user)
> > path.
> >
> > Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?
>
> No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies should
> reflect that.
>
> And from a purely functional point of view, it makes more sense to bring
> by default the standard, upstream-supported, well-tested solution, than
> the Debuntu-specific hack to use it with an inferior init system.
>
> Cheers,
"Inferior" is your personal (and others) opinion. I do not think systemd being
clearly superior. It has better points that sysvinit but also worse points
(already extensively discussed). So that is not a reason to force users
install systemd when they are just upgrading their currently working systems.

So:
* standard: we chose so (against the opinion of a lot of people), nothing more
to discuss about that
* upstream-supported: not exclusive to systemd
* well-tested: not true. sysvinit is the well tested, and well known one
(including its quircks and lacks)
* superior: plain no

Regards

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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

The Wanderer
In reply to this post by Josselin Mouette
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 09/05/2014 at 04:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote:

> Noel Torres wrote:
>
>> So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the
>> user) path.
>>
>> Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?
>
> No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies
> should reflect that.

Is there any clear consensus on what it means to be the "default" in
this context?

There are multiple possible meanings, and I think some of the disputes
which have arisen may be rooted at least partly in disagreement about
which of those meanings applies.

One possible meaning would be "the init system which will be installed
as active by the default debian-installer, unless the user explicitly
selects otherwise". By itself, that would not mean that package
dependencies should necessarily prefer systemd over any other init
system, though there might be reasons in some cases for doing them
differently anyway - such as, in the case at hand, avoiding causing
people to switch from one init system to the other without realizing
what they're doing or how to avoid doing it.

Another possible meaning would be "the init system which is recommended
to be used unless there is active reason to do otherwise", which is a
stronger statement. That would indeed more support the idea that package
dependencies should prefer systemd over other init systems, though
again, there might be reasons in any given case for doing them
differently.

There may well be other potential meanings - I think I've run across at
least one more in the past - but that should serve as examples, at
least.

Would it be worth clarifying what the participants in this discussion
(and possibly similar ones) understand "default" as meaning in the
context of "default init system for jessie", and possibly clarifying
that more officially on a broader scale for future reference?

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

The Wanderer
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 09/05/2014 at 07:26 AM, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 09/05/2014 at 04:57 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote:
>
>> Noel Torres wrote:
>
>>> So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for
>>> the user) path.
>>>
>>> Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv
>>> instead?
>
>> No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies
>> should reflect that.
>
> Is there any clear consensus on what it means to be the "default"
> in this context?
>
> There are multiple possible meanings, and I think some of the
> disputes which have arisen may be rooted at least partly in
> disagreement about which of those meanings applies.
>
> One possible meaning would be "the init system which will be
> installed as active by the default debian-installer, unless the
> user explicitly selects otherwise". By itself, that would not mean
> that package dependencies should necessarily prefer systemd over
> any other init system, though there might be reasons in some cases
> for doing them differently anyway - such as, in the case at hand,
> avoiding causing people to switch from one init system to the
> other without realizing what they're doing or how to avoid doing
> it.

I attached this "such as" section to the wrong paragraph, in editing
before send; it belongs on the other given possible meaning, below. My
apologies for any confusion this may cause.

> Another possible meaning would be "the init system which is
> recommended to be used unless there is active reason to do
> otherwise", which is a stronger statement. That would indeed more
> support the idea that package dependencies should prefer systemd
> over other init systems, though again, there might be reasons in
> any given case for doing them differently.
>
> There may well be other potential meanings - I think I've run
> across at least one more in the past - but that should serve as
> examples, at least.
>
> Would it be worth clarifying what the participants in this
> discussion (and possibly similar ones) understand "default" as
> meaning in the context of "default init system for jessie", and
> possibly clarifying that more officially on a broader scale for
> future reference?

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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systemd, again (Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing)

Matthias Urlichs-3
In reply to this post by Noel David Torres Taño
Hi,

Noel Torres:
> * superior: plain no
>
Your opinion. Mine is "hell yes". Both opinions are completely worthless,
absent any reasoning.
Could we please stop the "systemd is good" vs. "systemd is bad" bashing?

In any case, IMHO a system that's been installed with wheezy, and
then upgraded to jessie, should be identical to a system installed with
jessie in the first place.

Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
am not at all interested in), a dist-upgrade should do so.

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Re: systemd, again (Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing)

Svante Signell-2
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Hi,

> Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
> to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
> am not at all interested in), a dist-upgrade should do so.

How? All efforts so far and bugs reported are being brought down
actively.



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Re: systemd, again (Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing)

Matthias Klumpp
2014-09-05 15:12 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell <[hidden email]>:
> On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>> Hi,
>
>> Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
>> to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
>> am not at all interested in), a dist-upgrade should do so.
>
> How? All efforts so far and bugs reported are being brought down
> actively.
Install systemd-shim + sysvinit-core, or simply pin systemd-sysv will
be enough to install the shim and don't get systemd.
So yes, this is possible, and the systemd maintainers are doing a
great job in creating a seamless transition without blocking anyone
who doesn't want to use systemd for whatever reason.

Cheers,
    Matthias

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Re: systemd, again (Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing)

Svante Signell-2
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 16:07 +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> 2014-09-05 15:12 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell <[hidden email]>:
> > On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

> > How? All efforts so far and bugs reported are being brought down
> > actively.
> Install systemd-shim + sysvinit-core, or simply pin systemd-sysv will
> be enough to install the shim and don't get systemd.
> So yes, this is possible, and the systemd maintainers are doing a
> great job in creating a seamless transition without blocking anyone
> who doesn't want to use systemd for whatever reason.

And proposing a solution for a systemd-free (advanced) menu item in the
installer will be accepted too?



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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Steve Langasek
In reply to this post by Josselin Mouette
On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 10:57:34AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Noel Torres wrote:
> > So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user) path.

> > Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?

> No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies should
> reflect that.

No, the default dependencies should reflect the *principle of least
surprise*.  Installation of logind causing your init system to be changed if
you have already selected a non-default init system in jessie is failing
this principle.

The selection of default init system should be done via the Essential
packages *only*.

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Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Transition handling in Debian (was: systemd, again)

Daniel Leidert
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
Matthias Urlichs wrote:

>In any case, IMHO a system that's been installed with wheezy, and
>then upgraded to jessie, should be identical to a system installed with
>jessie in the first place.

That is nothing but wrong. A system upgraded will (very probably) have a
different configuration - because we don't touch configuration files altered
by the user - and it can also have a different MTA, GCC, Kernel etc.pp. either
by updated-alternatives or by not having dependency-packages installed or ....
Your argument is only reasonable for a plain standard system, which a user
did not alter. IIRC we do require this upgrade path by policy for such system.
However, this is *well* less then 1 percent of all systems?

The discussion e.g. about switching between default desktop environments has AFAIK
NOT come to the conclusion, that we begin to touch the users system and change
his/hers decision of which DE to use. If a user wants that, IMO we should provide a
dependency package like gcc or linux-image, because the DE or the kernel is vital
in many cases. If there is no such package, how do you come to the conclusion,
that you can force e.g. the default kernel or DE shipped with Jessie to be in
place on the upgraded system? Thus the decision to transition a system to a different
default has to be a sensitive one, because most systems won't be plain standard systems.

Otherwise you behave nothing better then Microsoft: installing updates even if
the user has chosen to download them only.

>Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
>to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
>am not at all interested in), a dist-upgrade should do so.

If the project decides to transition the default init system, that has to be
expected, yes, like it was with apache1.4->2.0, many library transitions ...
AFAIK it has also been suggested to handle the init system transition via
dependency packages (IIRC called init? not sure). IMO this could be a sensitive
technical decision for all those, who would like to keep things working as
they are or those who prefer a different init system.

Regards, Daniel


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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Ben Hutchings-3
In reply to this post by Steve Langasek
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 08:47 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 10:57:34AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > Noel Torres wrote:
> > > So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user) path.
>
> > > Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?
>
> > No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies should
> > reflect that.
>
> No, the default dependencies should reflect the *principle of least
> surprise*.  Installation of logind causing your init system to be changed if
> you have already selected a non-default init system in jessie is failing
> this principle.
>
> The selection of default init system should be done via the Essential
> packages *only*.
In that case, perhaps the alternate init systems should Recommend
systemd-shim?

Ben.

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Ben Hutchings
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Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing

Steve Langasek
On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 05:05:31PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 08:47 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 10:57:34AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > > Noel Torres wrote:
> > > > So we are clearly failing to follow the least surprise (for the user) path.

> > > > Should not logind depend on systemd-shim | systemd-sysv instead?

> > > No. Systemd is the default init system. The default dependencies should
> > > reflect that.

> > No, the default dependencies should reflect the *principle of least
> > surprise*.  Installation of logind causing your init system to be changed if
> > you have already selected a non-default init system in jessie is failing
> > this principle.

> > The selection of default init system should be done via the Essential
> > packages *only*.

> In that case, perhaps the alternate init systems should Recommend
> systemd-shim?

No, that's not the true package relationship.  There's no reason that you
should always get this added service by default when you install a system
with non-systemd init that doesn't need logind.  Making this a recommends
would be a workaround for bad metadata in the libpam-systemd package; we
should fix that problem at its source the right way.

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Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Re: systemd, again (Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing)

Matthias Klumpp
In reply to this post by Svante Signell-2
2014-09-05 17:23 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 16:07 +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
>> 2014-09-05 15:12 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell <[hidden email]>:
>> > On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>
>> > How? All efforts so far and bugs reported are being brought down
>> > actively.
>> Install systemd-shim + sysvinit-core, or simply pin systemd-sysv will
>> be enough to install the shim and don't get systemd.
>> So yes, this is possible, and the systemd maintainers are doing a
>> great job in creating a seamless transition without blocking anyone
>> who doesn't want to use systemd for whatever reason.
>
> And proposing a solution for a systemd-free (advanced) menu item in the
> installer will be accepted too?
If someone stands up and does the work, I guess so - but doing that is
a non-trivial task, since systemd is seeded by debootstrap at a very
early stage.
It would probably be much less pain to simply swap systemd-sysv with
sysvinit-core as soon as the system is installed.
Cheers,
    Matthias

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