Debian Etch Stable.

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Debian Etch Stable.

João Henrique Furtado
Hi, would like to know which day of December will be launched and version of the Debian Etch Stable.

Tank's.

João Henrique Furtado. São Paulo - Brazil.


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Russ Allbery-2
João Henrique Furtado <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi, would like to know which day of December will be launched and
> version of the Debian Etch Stable.

So would we.  :)

The only answer we can give you is "when it's ready," which may or may not
be in December.

--
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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Alexis Sukrieh
Russ Allbery a écrit :
>> Hi, would like to know which day of December will be launched and
>> version of the Debian Etch Stable.
>
> So would we.  :)
>
> The only answer we can give you is "when it's ready," which may or may not
> be in December.

If I were a troll-feeder, I would say that you can wait peacefully as
we have paid-release-managers working hard on it.

But I ain't that kind of guy. ;)

--
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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Anthony Towns
On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 03:13:15PM +0100, Alexis Sukrieh wrote:
> Russ Allbery a ?crit :
> >>Hi, would like to know which day of December will be launched and
> >>version of the Debian Etch Stable.
> >So would we.  :)
> >The only answer we can give you is "when it's ready," which may or may not
> >be in December.
> If I were a troll-feeder, I would say that you can wait peacefully as
> we have paid-release-managers working hard on it.

Well, that's not really accurate in the first place -- Steve's contracted
period's already up, and Andi's has only a few more days left.

Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
effort can be mustered just by having a good idea and good people and
putting them together to get a goal achieved. It might be that many of
the anti-payment people are actually also just not that interested in
getting the release out (or are even opposed to it), though. And I've
been told they're probably too cynical to try something like the above
anyway, so it's probably unlikely. In the context of an experiment to
find out whether paying people to do Debian work can be useful, it'd
certainly provide some useful information as to whether there are better
alternatives for encouraging contributions and getting things done.

Cheers,
aj


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Mohammed Adnène Trojette-4
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006, Anthony Towns wrote:
> Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> effort can be mustered just by having a good idea and good people and
> putting them together to get a goal achieved. It might be that many of
> the anti-payment people are actually also just not that interested in
> getting the release out (or are even opposed to it), though.

There is no cabal.

--
Mohammed Adnène Trojette


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Alexis Sukrieh
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
Anthony Towns a écrit :
> Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> effort can be mustered just by having a good idea and good people and
> putting them together to get a goal achieved.

As the DPL who set up the experiment we are talking about, I understand
your anger against the so called "anti-payment" people, but please take
into consideration the following:

   1. Paying Debian Developers seems to make (some of) them completely
humorless, everything is taken a hundred percent seriously, as if the
dollars in their pockets droped their fun hability. That's a pitty.

   2. You can pay DDs to boost up the wonderful project that is Debian,
but you definitely cannot blame other DDs for not being as much involved
as you'd like. Remember that a vast majority of us are people who
contribute in their free time, most of them doing the best they can
given their free time.

   3. You seem to forget that the Debian Social Contract cleary defines
two priorities for DDs: The users and the free software. I personnaly
don't read "Our priority is to release quickly". To me releasing when
"it's ready" is clearly better than setting up some
"pretty-useful-etch-ignore" tags and stuff like that so the release can
be out in time. Did we ever spoke about the overall quality of the
resulting boosted-release?

   4. Given that, be aware that I don't blame neither Andi nor Steve for
trying the experiment, but I hope they can understand that beyond
themselves, the whole experiment changed the game. That matters, that
triggers reactions, and to me that is definitely understandable.


        debian/rules

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Alexis Sukrieh


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Anthony Towns
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 08:38:05AM +0100, Alexis Sukrieh wrote:
> Anthony Towns a ?crit :
> >Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> >people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> >up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> >effort can be mustered just by having a good idea and good people and
> >putting them together to get a goal achieved.
> As the DPL who set up the experiment we are talking about, I understand
> your anger against the so called "anti-payment" people, but please take
> into consideration the following:

I'm not angry. I just think now's the perfect opportunity for people
who think paying people isn't or shouldn't be what Debian's about
to demonstrate that there's an alternative that better achieves this
particular goal. In particular starting now has the benefit that while
there's still a lot to do, the licensing arguments are already dealt with,
the dunc-tank work's already been done, the freeze is already in place,
and it's not very likely that anyone's going to try working against
you. Doing that while Dunc-Tank was actively doing stuff probably would
have just been confusing, doing it now means we can clearly track the
different efforts (paid and unpaid) via rc bug graphs, upload volume,
mailing list posts and whatever else.

Whether anyone'll take up that opportunity to promote an alternative
approach is another question though. It's a lot easier to sit back and
comment on your blog, or a mailing list or irc, after all.

Cheers,
aj


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Russ Allbery-2
In reply to this post by Alexis Sukrieh
Alexis Sukrieh <[hidden email]> writes:
> Anthony Towns a écrit :

>> Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
>> people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and
>> make up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy
>> and effort can be mustered just by having a good idea and good people
>> and putting them together to get a goal achieved.

Er, this makes little sense to me.  Much of the hard work for the etch
release has now been done.  Comparing actions taken at this stage to
actions taken at an earlier stage doesn't make a tremendous amount of
sense.  I don't think you'd be able to prove anything interesting either
way with that.

>   1. Paying Debian Developers seems to make (some of) them completely
> humorless, everything is taken a hundred percent seriously, as if the
> dollars in their pockets droped their fun hability. That's a pitty.

Huh, I didn't notice that.  Maybe I'm normally humorless anyway.  :)

>   2. You can pay DDs to boost up the wonderful project that is Debian,
> but you definitely cannot blame other DDs for not being as much involved
> as you'd like. Remember that a vast majority of us are people who
> contribute in their free time, most of them doing the best they can
> given their free time.

Yup.  I would hope that everyone realizes this.  Also, one thing that
should be totally clear, if it wasn't already, is that the very most that
anyone would ever be able to do with monetary contributions to Debian is
perhaps provide additional resources in very targetted areas, not even
fund a complete core task.  There's a ton of unfunded release work going
on, just like always.

>   3. You seem to forget that the Debian Social Contract cleary defines
> two priorities for DDs: The users and the free software. I personnaly
> don't read "Our priority is to release quickly". To me releasing when
> "it's ready" is clearly better than setting up some
> "pretty-useful-etch-ignore" tags and stuff like that so the release can
> be out in time. Did we ever spoke about the overall quality of the
> resulting boosted-release?

etch feels to me (having been running it for quite a while now) as a bit
more release-ready than sarge was at this point.  (Note that I cannot
comment on d-i at all; I only use the installer when I bootstrap a
completely new piece of personal equipment.  I don't even use it at work,
since we use FAI for everything.)

Once you reach a particular size in a free software project, you can't
*purely* release when it's bug-free or you'll never release.  I've seen
that time and time again in free software projects.  Some of them die
because of that sort of perfectionism.  Others devolve into an endless
cycle of betas and CVS snapshots.  There are quite a few of those packaged
in Debian.

As soon as your project reaches a size where you will never be able to fix
all of the bugs (and it doesn't have to be very large for that), releasing
is *always* a tradeoff between fixing more bugs and calling it good enough
and kicking it out the door.  *Both* actions help users -- fixing bugs
helps, as does establishing a new stable baseline.

It will *never* be completely ready.

>   4. Given that, be aware that I don't blame neither Andi nor Steve for
> trying the experiment, but I hope they can understand that beyond
> themselves, the whole experiment changed the game. That matters, that
> triggers reactions, and to me that is definitely understandable.

Yes, I think it's important to factor into the judgement of how this
experiment went the fact that it changes the game.  It's not *only* a
question of how much work the people paid managed to get done.

So, we missed the release deadline.  I'm not horribly surprised; paying
two people to work on it is helpful but not enough to actually release,
and I'm not sure that the schedule is that variable through adding more
manpower.  Paying two people to work on the release full-time probably
sped up the release by a bit, though.  Now, I'm curious whether the
funders behind dunc-tank (who are the people who actually get to make this
decision -- it's their private money, unaffiliated with the project, and
they can spend it however they want) felt like what was achieved was worth
the price.

Personally, I would go back to my feeling at the start of this whole
conversation and say that release management, while an important thing for
the project as a whole, is not an obvious thing to spend money on because
it's a repeating need.  We need infrastructural improvements there, not a
regular infusion of manpower, because the latter doesn't help with the
scaling problem.  I think dunc-tank would get more bang for its buck by
funding specific targetted development in large areas that would make
Debian better, such as dpkg 2.0, or a replacement init system with better
dependency management and faster boot times, or some sort of comprehensive
work on the shared library dependency problem that would make library
transitions less painful.  I think that sort of specific contribution from
a third-party funding source would also be less controversial, leading to
less time lost in debate.

--
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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Julien Danjou
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
At 1165909673 time_t, Anthony Towns wrote:
> I'm not angry. I just think now's the perfect opportunity for people
> who think paying people isn't or shouldn't be what Debian's about
> to demonstrate that there's an alternative that better achieves this
> particular goal. In particular starting now has the benefit that while
> there's still a lot to do, the licensing arguments are already dealt with,
> the dunc-tank work's already been done, the freeze is already in place,

I won't do that, I'm sure it'll help you to claim in some weeks that the
experimente was "not so bad" after all.

> and it's not very likely that anyone's going to try working against
> you.

You bet!

Cheers,
--
Julien Danjou
.''`.  Debian Developer
: :' : http://julien.danjou.info
`. `'  http://people.debian.org/~acid
  `-   9A0D 5FD9 EB42 22F6 8974  C95C A462 B51E C2FE E5CD

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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Julien BLACHE
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
Anthony Towns <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and

Now if only you could understand that we don't give a shit about the
release date, that would be a great step forward.

Only quality matters.

JB.

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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Anthony Towns
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 09:11:31AM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> Anthony Towns <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> > people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> > up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> Now if only you could understand that we don't give a shit about the
> release date, that would be a great step forward.
> Only quality matters.

Quality is not, and has never been, the question.

The question is whether we can hit our quality target without forcing our
users to put up with obsolete software -- either the previous release's
because we keep delaying the release date, or the forthcoming release's
because we have an overly extended freeze.

Cheers,
aj


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Joey Schulze
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
Anthony Towns wrote:
> Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and

I hereby set December 6th 2007 as release date.  With help of many
volunteers the Debian project may be able to release earlier, though.

Regards,

        Joey

--
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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Julien BLACHE
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
Anthony Towns <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Now if only you could understand that we don't give a shit about the
>> release date, that would be a great step forward.
>> Only quality matters.
>
> Quality is not, and has never been, the question.

Given how one of the two release managers treated some of the RC bugs,
quality is the question.

JB.

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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Marc Haber-5
In reply to this post by Alexis Sukrieh
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 08:38:05AM +0100, Alexis Sukrieh wrote:
>   1. Paying Debian Developers seems to make (some of) them completely
> humorless, everything is taken a hundred percent seriously, as if the
> dollars in their pockets droped their fun hability. That's a pitty.

Considering that there were exactly two (2) DDs paid for release
management, I find the wording "some of them" rather strange. It's
either zero, one or two. and I don't find Andi any humorless than he
is usually, and I see that he has fun working on Debian. Which is a
feature. Isn't it beautiful? Being paid for work that is fun! And not
having to do some unfunny work just to get the bills paid.

Otoh, I see a truckload of unpaid DDs vituperating and spreading bad
mood around the project. _That's_ the real harm that was caused - very
indirectly - by dunctank.

Greetings
Marc

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Mannheim, Germany  |  lose things."    Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834
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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Sven Luther
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 05:47:53PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 08:38:05AM +0100, Alexis Sukrieh wrote:
> > Anthony Towns a ?crit :
> > >Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> > >people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> > >up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> > >effort can be mustered just by having a good idea and good people and
> > >putting them together to get a goal achieved.
> > As the DPL who set up the experiment we are talking about, I understand
> > your anger against the so called "anti-payment" people, but please take
> > into consideration the following:
>
> I'm not angry. I just think now's the perfect opportunity for people
> who think paying people isn't or shouldn't be what Debian's about
> to demonstrate that there's an alternative that better achieves this
> particular goal. In particular starting now has the benefit that while
> there's still a lot to do, the licensing arguments are already dealt with,

The licensing arguments has not been dealt with, due to a set of circumstances
you where also partly responsible for, we are now in a worse mess than in
august, and the vote resulted in a situation where the voters where deluded
about what they voted, and the RMs where forced to give out a statement where
they directly contradict the text of the vote, and nobody is really interested
in ever hearing about non-free firmware anymore.

Consider the lost oportunity, we could have had a good resolution, which we
could have used as a basis to approach upstream of problematic firmwares, but
instead we have a mess, which punishes those vendors who did act on our
contact last fall, and favours those who did nothing. I was personally going
to lead that effort, but given how i was handled, and how i was insulted on
irc for trying to find a good resolution, and negotiating with all parties,
trying to find a middle ground between those of the kernel team who said they
would have left if the non-free firmware was removed, and those strong
non-free removal proponents. And all this to end in this mess, and being
repeteadly insulted by my fellow DDs, there is no way you will get me involved
in this kind of stuff anymore.

And there is a parallel in this "experiment" thingy. It resulted in such a
motivation killer that it was more destructive than any other possible path,
and will have long term consequences. You cannot engage in such actions, and
then act as if nothing happened, and say : now it is your turn to prove it was
a bad idea, and so to cleverly get everyone to work on the goal you have
fixed.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Marc Haber-5
In reply to this post by Julien BLACHE
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 09:11:31AM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> Anthony Towns <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> > people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> > up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
>
> Now if only you could understand that we don't give a shit about the
> release date, that would be a great step forward.
>
> Only quality matters.

Kindly speak for yourself. I happen to give a shit about the release
date, since not releasing on time, and releasing with outdated
software is one of the last points that our critics have left. I like
the idea of being able to tell them to shut up with this point.

The other critics' point that we have successfully disabled is our
unfriendly installer. The new Debian installer positively rocks. Now,
people need to notice that.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Sven Luther
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 06:15:03PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 09:11:31AM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > Anthony Towns <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> > > people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> > > up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> > Now if only you could understand that we don't give a shit about the
> > release date, that would be a great step forward.
> > Only quality matters.
>
> Quality is not, and has never been, the question.
>
> The question is whether we can hit our quality target without forcing our
> users to put up with obsolete software -- either the previous release's
> because we keep delaying the release date, or the forthcoming release's
> because we have an overly extended freeze.

One way to help on this, would have been for example to have Steve Langasek to
actually cooperate with the kernel team when it was drafting the non-free
resolution back in august, instead of going its own inflamatory way, ignoring
everyone, and ensuring a month long flamewar which resulted in a mess, thus
echoing a preceding such event, with Steve's disastrous communication about
the vancouver event.

You where part of the vancouver discussion, and well, the methodology that
failed back then, is strangely repeated in how you handled this "experiment",
with obvious similar effect (months of flamewar, and demotivation of core
DDs).

Maybe you should take time to reflect on what you did, and learn something
from it. If you manage to do that, the "experiment" would indeed have served
something :). I would be, and i guess others would be too, very interested in
your self-analysis of how you handled this problem, and what you learned from
it.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Alexis Sukrieh
In reply to this post by Marc Haber-5
Marc Haber a écrit :
> Otoh, I see a truckload of unpaid DDs vituperating and spreading bad
> mood around the project. _That's_ the real harm that was caused - very
> indirectly - by dunctank.

Ok, so you want to count bad-mood seeds?

Telling what is an appropriate behaviour or not - just as if getting
paid gives you more authority - does not spread good mood neither.


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

MJ Ray-2
In reply to this post by Anthony Towns
Anthony Towns <[hidden email]> wrote: [...]
> It might be that many of
> the anti-payment people are actually also just not that interested in
> getting the release out (or are even opposed to it), though. And I've
> been told they're probably too cynical to try something like the above
> anyway, so it's probably unlikely.

And what's more, I've been told that they're probably made of straw!

> In the context of an experiment to
> find out whether paying people to do Debian work can be useful, it'd
> certainly provide some useful information as to whether there are better
> alternatives for encouraging contributions and getting things done.

The release was the only metric put forward for the experiment,
despite various requests.

The experiment failed to do the release.

Hope that explains,
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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

Anthony Towns
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 09:56:33AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > In the context of an experiment to
> > find out whether paying people to do Debian work can be useful, it'd
> > certainly provide some useful information as to whether there are better
> > alternatives for encouraging contributions and getting things done.
> The release was the only metric put forward for the experiment,
> despite various requests.

Actually, I believe you'll find that that wasn't even put forward as a
metric for the experiment. As per [0], it wasn't even the primary goal
of the payments.

One of the major arguments against "changing the rules of the game"
is that paying some people and not paying others will discourage (some
of) the people who don't get paid from contributing. When people are
reviewing this experiment and working out whether to try similar things
in the future, whether within Debian or elsewhere, I'd expect one of the
things they'll consider is whether the people who claim to be demotivated
now were really going to contribute much more otherwise. This is, IMO,
a fairly unique opportunity to demonstrate just how much contribution
is being lost due to jealousy or unfairness or whathaveyou.

Obviously, there's no requirement for anyone to take advantage of that
opportunity, but if I thought paying people was a bad idea even in
principle, I'd be making the most of this opportunity to prove that I
was right. Actions speak louder than words and all that.

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/10/msg00027.html


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