Debian Programming languages

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Debian Programming languages

Paul Sutton-2
Hi

As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
languages are mostly used?  I am asking as it helps to give people an
idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.

I am guessing as the default command line interface is bash, then bash
and bash scripting would be useful to learn but on top of that what
would people suggest I try and promote.

Not just on the coding side of things as we have markdown / html / css
perhaps LaTeX for documentation.


Thanks

Paul

--
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-05-24 17:08:44)

> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian, what programming
> languages are mostly used?  I am asking as it helps to give people an
> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
>
> I am guessing as the default command line interface is bash, then bash
> and bash scripting would be useful to learn but on top of that what
> would people suggest I try and promote.
>
> Not just on the coding side of things as we have markdown / html / css
> perhaps LaTeX for documentation.
Debian excells in not being a monoculture.  Therefore I think it is
doing Debian a disservice to try emphasize which has "majority" use.

 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Debian Programming languages

ghe-2
In reply to this post by Paul Sutton-2
On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:

> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
> languages are mostly used?  

C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)

> I am asking as it helps to give people an
> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.

The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.

I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
stuff.

Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.

Bash reminds one of the syntax of the 1950s. The pits, but necessary.
And it's often the best way to make something happen right now.

Python rules, this week (it's written in C too).

They all do things differently. Knowing several of them (and investing
in a pile of O'Reilly books) is a big help.

--
Glenn English

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Re: Debian Programming languages

john doe-6
On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:

> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
>
>> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
>> languages are mostly used?
>
> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
>
>> I am asking as it helps to give people an
>> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
>
> The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
> C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
> they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.
>
> I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
> stuff.
>
> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.
>
> Bash reminds one of the syntax of the 1950s. The pits, but necessary.
> And it's often the best way to make something happen right now.
>

'/bin/sh' on Debian is Dash.

So I would say, general shell scripting ability and POSIX compliance
(Dash/Posh).

Avoiding Bashism if Bash is to be used.

--
John Doe

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Re: Debian Programming languages

mick crane
In reply to this post by ghe-2
On 2019-05-24 17:14, ghe wrote:
> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
>
>> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
>> languages are mostly used?
>
> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)

> Perl is happily off on it's own.

What goes on with Perl ?
There is Perl6 but development is stalled ?

mick


--
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Christian Groessler
In reply to this post by john doe-6
On 5/24/19 6:51 PM, john doe wrote:
> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.


I'm typically referring to perl as a "write-only" language. :-)

But don't get me wrong, I like it...

regards,
chris

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Paul Sutton-2
In reply to this post by john doe-6

On 24/05/2019 17:51, john doe wrote:

> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
>>
>>> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
>>> languages are mostly used?
>> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
>> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
>>
>>> I am asking as it helps to give people an
>>> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
>> The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
>> C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
>> they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.
>>
>> I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
>> stuff.
>>
>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.
>>
>> Bash reminds one of the syntax of the 1950s. The pits, but necessary.
>> And it's often the best way to make something happen right now.
>>
> '/bin/sh' on Debian is Dash.
>
> So I would say, general shell scripting ability and POSIX compliance
> (Dash/Posh).
>
> Avoiding Bashism if Bash is to be used.
>
> --
> John Doe
>

Thank you for this, very helpful and useful information, I (well others
too) hopefully have something to go on when trying to tell people about
contributing to Debian. 

Granted not everyone (including me) is at developer level or may want to
get that far.

Question now is how to turn all this in to something that will hopefully
attract people to help with Debian or other free software projects that
are related.

Thanks again


Paul


Paul


--
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by ghe-2
Quoting ghe (2019-05-24 18:14:42)

> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
>
> > As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
> > languages are mostly used?  
>
> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
>
> > I am asking as it helps to give people an
> > idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
>
> The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
> C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
> they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.
>
> I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
> stuff.
>
> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.
That's plain wrong: Debian has perl at its core, and Python not.

Also, your simplification of Perl is common among folks ignorant about
Perl but is wrong as well: You _can_ write difficult-to-read code in
Perl by by no means do you need to, and most Perl code in Debian - i.e.
the thousands of CPAN modules, does not use a difficult-to-read coding
style.

You don't need to learn _any_ specific language in order to help out
with Debian: https://www.debian.org/intro/help


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Thomas Schmitt
In reply to this post by ghe-2
Hi,

ghe wrote:
> I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)

1,122 lines of code in Buster.
See
  https://sources.debian.org/stats/#sloc_current


(Astounding how few languages are mentioned there.
 No Piet ? http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html
)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by mick crane
Quoting mick crane (2019-05-24 19:21:33)

> On 2019-05-24 17:14, ghe wrote:
> > On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
> >
> >> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
> >> languages are mostly used?
> >
> > C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> > others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
>
> > Perl is happily off on it's own.
>
> What goes on with Perl ?
> There is Perl6 but development is stalled ?
Perl is alive and well.

Perl6 (a different thing derived from perl) is progressing, not stalled.

 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Debian Programming languages

ghe-2
In reply to this post by mick crane
On 5/24/19 11:21 AM, mick crane wrote:


>> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:

> What goes on with Perl ?

Can you say "Python"?

Perl was great a while back, but it leaves something to be desired today.

--
Glenn English

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Re: Debian Programming languages

ghe-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
On 5/24/19 11:42 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> That's plain wrong: Debian has perl at its core, and Python not.

Please note the word "creeping." Perl is used a lot -- it's a very
powerful language, but its syntax and data structures are less than optimal.

I've written a lot of Perl, but I've become a Python convert. Python has
its warts too, but it sure is easier to live with than Perl is.

--
Glenn English

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Re: Debian Programming languages

James H. H. Lampert
Just out of morbid curiosity: what about a full ANSI PL/I?

--
JHHL
(And the mere fact that I'm asking ages me.)

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Tom Browder
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 12:43 Jonas Smedegaard <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
That's plain wrong: Debian has perl at its core, and Python not.

Also, your simplification of Perl is common among folks ignorant about
Perl but is wrong as well: You _can_ write difficult-to-read code in
Perl by by no means do you need to, and most Perl code in Debian - i.e.
the thousands of CPAN modules, does not use a difficult-to-read coding
style.

To add support to Jonas' reply:

Perl 6 development is definitely NOT stalled. We have four GSoC students working on serious projects for the Perl 6 community. We welcome all to visit <https://perl6.org> and join the fun! (We did have some server problems recently which may have led you to think development has stalled.)

Warmest regards,

-Tom

#perl6, #perl6-dev alias: tbrowder
github: tbrowder


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Re: Debian Programming languages

ghe-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Schmitt
On 5/24/19 11:45 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> 1,122 lines of code in Buster.

Oh. So that's what's wrong with Buster :-)

> (Astounding how few languages are mentioned there.
>  No Piet ? http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html

I forgot about LISP too. LISP was the first high level language I
learned. Thought I was going to die...

--
Glenn English

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Re: Debian Programming languages

James H. H. Lampert
On 5/24/19, 11:00 AM, ghe wrote:
> I forgot about LISP too. LISP was the first high level language I
> learned. Thought I was going to die...

(CLUTTER CLUTTER (CDR CLUTTER)) is probably the only s-expression I
still remember from over half a lifetime ago. (It's a line of code from
the "Blocks World" exercise in my old (LISP) textbook).

--
JHHL

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Thomas Schmitt
In reply to this post by ghe-2
Hi,

Glenn English wrote:
> LISP was the first high level language I
> learned. Thought I was going to die...

Yeah. Why ain't there no Debian package with Guile ?
  https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/

  https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=guile
yields (after choosing a package)

  https://sources.debian.org/src/supertux/0.6.0-1/tools/levelconverter-0.1.3_0.2.0.scm/?hl=1#L1
  #!/usr/bin/guile -s

Probably Guile and Scheme are counted as Lisp.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Joe Rowan
On Fri, 24 May 2019 20:28:04 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Glenn English wrote:
> > LISP was the first high level language I
> > learned. Thought I was going to die...  
>
> Yeah. Why ain't there no Debian package with Guile ?
>   https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
>
>
geda-gschem and related electronics tools rely on Guile. I have Guile
libraries 1.8, 2.0 and 2.2 installed, and they increase in size from
2.6MB to 11.8MB to 45MB. So something must still be going on...

--
Joe

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Joe Rowan
In reply to this post by Paul Sutton-2
On Fri, 24 May 2019 16:08:44 +0100
Paul Sutton <[hidden email]> wrote:


>
> Not just on the coding side of things as we have markdown / html / css
> perhaps LaTeX for documentation.
>

I've done practically all my coding for the last ten years in php. With
a disparate collection of computing devices, web applications make
sense for me. But I'm a hobbyist, not a professional, and have never
done any system programming.

--
Joe

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Re: Debian Programming languages

Alex Mestiashvili-4
In reply to this post by Christian Groessler
On 5/24/19 7:28 PM, Christian Groessler wrote:

> On 5/24/19 6:51 PM, john doe wrote:
>> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace
>>> it.
>
>
> I'm typically referring to perl as a "write-only" language. :-)
>
> But don't get me wrong, I like it...
>
> regards,
> chris
>

That is not true. The freedom to write unreadable code doesn't mean that
the language is bad.

Just as an example, look on Perl Dancer[0] framework. It's so damn easy
and clear, one can start using it just after going through the tutorial.

Best,
Alex

[0] https://metacpan.org/pod/Dancer2::Tutorial

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