Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Matthew Vernon-2
Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[hidden email]> writes:

> Not to pile on, but i wonder whether Lamby's diligence, and his clear
> documentation of the workload (via Bits from the DPL at least) hasn't
> scared off some prospective candidates, who might now be realizing that
> they don't have the bandwidth to handle all of the minutae that Chris
> has dealt with over the last two years :)

Maybe this is the time to try and reduce the workload? The DPL has quite
a workload set by the constitution, but seems to do quite a lot of other
stuff that maybe could be delegated further?

> Thanks, Chris!

+1 to this. I don't mean to criticise the dilligence of past DPLs in any
way :)

Regards,

Matthew

--
"At least you know where you are with Microsoft."
"True. I just wish I'd brought a paddle."
http://www.debian.org

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Mehdi Dogguy-5
In reply to this post by Paulo Henrique Santana-3
(Dropping Chris from CC: as he is subscribed to -vote)

On 2019-03-12 16:55, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana wrote:
>
> Mehdi, would you like to run again?
> I saw you run in 2017 and you have experience as DPL.
>

I am really not sure what people are expecting from the DPL. My past
experience showed me that expectations varied a lot between different
groups/team/persons. Having a DPL elected doesn't mean people agree
with his/her program.

I am not sure what kind of governance the project needs today. We should
collectively think about this before rushing someone to invest all his
emotional and physical energy for one year.

--
Mehdi

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Iustin Pop-3
On 2019-03-13 15:13:33, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:

> (Dropping Chris from CC: as he is subscribed to -vote)
>
> On 2019-03-12 16:55, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana wrote:
> >
> > Mehdi, would you like to run again?
> > I saw you run in 2017 and you have experience as DPL.
> >
>
> I am really not sure what people are expecting from the DPL. My past
> experience showed me that expectations varied a lot between different
> groups/team/persons. Having a DPL elected doesn't mean people agree
> with his/her program.
>
> I am not sure what kind of governance the project needs today. We should
> collectively think about this before rushing someone to invest all his
> emotional and physical energy for one year.
From my reading of the DPL bits, and if I remember correctly, there are
a few of what seems to be separate areas:

- delegations
- finances (approving BSPs, hardware, sponsoring people with visas,
  etc.)
- dealing with external organisations (although not sure exactly what,
  but press/articles, discussions about copyrights sometimes, maybe
  conferences?, etc.)
- dealing with internal escalations/de-escalating issues

Now, I don't follow debian lists very consistently, but I try to read
the bits and what surprised me was the reasonable consistency of at
least these areas over the past ~year or so I restarted keeping up with
things.

If this is the case, then I don't see how, for example, the first two
areas couldn't be delegated to some committees, maybe the third one as
well, and only keep the DPL role as ultimate arbiter/deadlock breaker.

Apologies if I'm wildly off-track, but that's the pattern that I saw in
the notes :)

iustin

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Lucas Nussbaum-4
Hi,

Disclaimer: I was the DPL between 2013 and 2015. My recollection of that
time might not be entirely correct, and Debian might have changed quite
a bit since then. I must admit that I haven't followed Debian closely
enough to know some details!

(And I hope that other former DPLs will post their own views)

On 13/03/19 at 20:35 +0100, Iustin Pop wrote:

> From my reading of the DPL bits, and if I remember correctly, there are
> a few of what seems to be separate areas:
>
> - delegations
> - finances (approving BSPs, hardware, sponsoring people with visas,
>   etc.)
> - dealing with external organisations (although not sure exactly what,
>   but press/articles, discussions about copyrights sometimes, maybe
>   conferences?, etc.)
> - dealing with internal escalations/de-escalating issues
So, let's try to describe how I see the DPL's various roles and
responsibilities, and also how those could be transformed (in the
"Debian without a DPL" scenario, or in the "Debian with a DPL-team").

Responsibility #0: Keep Debian fun and functional
-------------------------------------------------
First, I think that the most important responsibility for the DPL is to
make sure that Debian remains fun and functional. That requires making
sure that the most important teams are functional (by actively
monitoring them, talking to people, etc.) and by making sure that all
important areas of responsibility are covered. The
"monitoring/detection" part of it is mostly an invisible task, but it
takes a lot of time (mostly reading stuff, talking to people, etc.) When
I was the DPL, I think I had some kind of "Debian health checklist", and
also custom munin plugins to monitor specific parts of the project (like
various queues).

The "monitoring/detection" part can easily be distributed. The most
basic way to contribute to that is to complain to the DPL about
something that looks broken, to ensure that the DPL is aware of it.

But then, there's the "fixing" part.

Technical problems (or problems that are quite technical) are usually
not the DPL problem, and are covered by the Technical Committee, which
has been functional for quite some time. So that's easy (for the DPL).

What remains are mostly "people issues". Again, the Anti-harassment team
covers some of them, but not all them (and, this is still a shared
responsibility between A-H and the DPL). DAM covers some other cases.
What's mainly left for the DPL alone is core teams that become
dysfunctional because of MIA members or bad atmosphere or ...
Those issues are very time-consuming and very difficult, and very
damaging for the project.

The DPL's toolset for those issues is: social/communication/negociation
skills, the authority associated to the position, and the nuclear weapon
(delegations).

Delegations are just the tip of the iceberg. And most of the time,
updating delegations is very easy: a functional team comes to the DPL
and says "A is not active anymore and would like to leave the team. And
we recruited B and C." You review the current delegation's description
of roles and responsibility (which was probably written very well by a
former DPL), maybe discuss some adjustments with the team, and you are
done.

Making new delegations is a bit harder, but you have to to-be-delegated
team to work with you. The hard part is generally to understand what
should be the exact (delegated) powers of the team, to make it fit
properly within Debian. This is usually quite subtle, and where the
problems arise later on.


The "fixing" part is hard to distribute for the difficult cases, and
would require a DPL team that works very closely together. I doubt that
it would work with a board of individually elected people, for example.
What could work is a clear leader for the DPL team that would "delegate"
a case to another team member.

Also, without the DPL as a safeguard, I don't know what would happen.
Debian has been getting more and more "professional", and most teams
have been able to take care of themselves for a long time now (or maybe
the DPLs have gotten better at detecting problems earlier ;) ).
So it's likely that Debian would survive for quite some time. But the
fact of not having any last resort solution is a bit scary.


Responsibility #1: Garbage collection
-------------------------------------
The constitution says that the DPL may "Make any decision for whom noone
else has responsibility." (5.1.4). It means that the DPL ends up being
in charge of various tasks. They are often in relation with the "outside
world", because we are pretty good at identifying recurring issues
inside Debian, and creating teams to address them.

Something closely in relation is the "point of contact" role. We have
the press team (the publicity team nowadays) that deals with press
inquiries, but the DPL is usually the point of contact for the outside
world, especially for non-technical stuff.

For simple inquiries, we could imagine sharing the load by having a
frontdesk that receives requests that don't require secrecy. But in my
experience, the requests that take a lot of time are those that really
need to go to the DPL anyway.

For the various little projects that the DPL catches as the garbage
collector, we could also imagine a better way to distribute them. In
the worst case, better prioritization could also help: not everything
that arrives in the DPL mailbox needs to be addressed.


Responsibility #2: Handling finances
------------------------------------
The DPL is in charge of Debian assets. In practice, it means approving
expenses and handling the relations with the Trusted Organizations.
This is generally fairly easy because:
- we don't have that many expenses
- people are usually very conservative about spending Debian money, so
  requests that need to be discussed in depth or even denied are rare
- we have (or at least used to have) a steady stream of donations that
  cover our needs
- our Trusted Organizations are quite functional
- the budget of the largest annual expense (DebConf) is supposed to
  get a review by the DebConf committee before DPL approval, and again,
  people tend to be reasonable

Things could be improved though. There's a Treasurer team according to
[1] but I don't know if it is active (I couldn't find a "bits" email on
d-d-a). Also, from the DPL POV, it would be very useful to have an annual
report on Debian finances. I don't know if this exists nowadays.

[1] https://www.debian.org/intro/organization


Responsibility #3: Providing a vision, talking/writing about Debian
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In the distant past, we used to have DPL elections where visions about
the project were the subject of hot discussions (we even had DPL debates
on IRC!)[1]. It was the annual discussion where the state of the project
was discussed. This was fun and interesting. With the decrease in DPL
candidates, this has been lost and probably replaced somehow by mailing
list discussions or blog posts (or maybe disappeared entirely, which is
probably a very bad thing).

[1] For example, look at
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/threads.html and notice
that it says "Page 1 of 2"!

I think that the project has grown to adulthood, and that we don't need
the DPL to tell us what to do. It's important to realize that, other
than having a larger floor to advertise your ideas and possibly recruit
people to help you, the DPL role doesn't bring any super-powers that
help with implementing them.
Also, given that many people in Debian are of the "talk is cheap, show
me the code" mindset, it's probably better, if you really have
super-cool ideas for Debian, that you don't run for DPL and instead work
on your ideas and advertise them when there's something to show and get
others to join you to maintain PPAs.

So, that part of the role is really easy to reduce. We just need to
decide that it's possible to give it up, and reduce our expectations
about the DPL.

In my experience, the "give talks" part is not that time-consuming,
because there aren't that many events that either are interesting enough
for Debian to spend money on getting the DPL to travel to them to give a
talk, or are willing to pay travel costs. Also for more local events,
I've always thought that it made more sense to have local DDs give
talks, because that provides more opportunity for create durable links.


Responsibility #4: "Debian Monthly News"
----------------------------------------
Over time, the DPL somehow has grown the responsibility of distributing
news that are sometimes very loosely related to the DPL role.  That's
probably a bad habit created by the pressure associated with the
position that encourages to write lengthy emails to d-d-a even where
there isn't that much visible stuff to report on, because lots of things
are happening behind the scenes. If we elect another DPL, I would
recommend that the next DPL limits those monthly reports strictly to DPL
stuff (and leave the rest to the publicity team). The frequency could
also be decreased a bit.


Fallacy: being the DPL takes a lot of time
------------------------------------------
I don't think that's true. Or at least, I don't think that it's worse
than being an active member of a core team. The main differences with
such a role are:
- it's a position where you are often alone, and lack feedback
- the stress level is (I think) much higher than in technical core
  teams. After the end of my terms, I remember thinking about how good
  it felt to be able to spend a week-end without reading  email, and
  to open my mailbox without the fear of finding a big flamewar or a
  super-difficult email.



So where should we go from here?
================================
First, I think that we need someone in charge of the "garbage
collector" and "point of contact" roles, and in charge of activating a
last resort solution when core teams are severely dysfunctional (which
also means making the necessary efforts to solve the problems
beforehand).

But I think that we should deflate the expectations around the DPL and
re-focus the role on responsibilities #0, #1, #2 above. That's already a
lot of work. It could help to change the title to something that sounds
a bit more "management" (something like Debian Executive Director?)

Other than the name change, the constitution is still pretty sane. We
could drop:

> 5.1.2 Lend authority to other Developers.
> The Project Leader may make statements of support for points of view or
> for other members of the project, when asked or otherwise; these
> statements have force if and only if the Leader would be empowered to
> make the decision in question.

maybe also:

> 5.1.5 Propose draft General Resolutions and amendments.

and probably:

> 5.1.9 Lead discussions amongst Developers.
> The Project Leader should attempt to participate in discussions amongst
> the Developers in a helpful way which seeks to bring the discussion to
> bear on the key issues at hand. The Project Leader should not use the
> Leadership position to promote their own personal views.


I'm really not sure about all ideas that involve teams/committees.

What could work is a group of people that are elected together, agree
beforehand on how to share the various areas of responsibility, and
synchronize very frequently to align their views. But it's probably hard
to be efficient in the typical Debian setup, and to determine a split of
responsibilities that would work.

If people want to experiment in that direction, a group of people should
probably come forward, choose one of them as the DPL candidate, and
experiment after they get elected. It will always be time to write
things in stone^Hthe constitution when we have an organization that seem
to work and could be generalized.

Lucas

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Sam Hartman-3
How much of the DPL's financial role can be delegated?
I understand that for example absent instructions otherwise the DPL is
our expendature approval point for SPI (and presumably the other trusted
organizations).

Would the governing procedures/bilaws/whatever of our trusted
organizations permit a DPL to delegate some or all of this?

To be clear, I think a DPL would have to be careful of this and for
example arrange things so they were ultimately accountable for Debian
assets.
I'm just curious about the procedural limitations on the DPL from our
constitution and the rules of organizations who hold our money.

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Bdale Garbee
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
Lucas Nussbaum <[hidden email]> writes:

> - it's a position where you are often alone, and lack feedback

This is true in the limit, but I, and a number of other former DPLs,
have often made ourselves available to the acting DPL to act as a
"sounding board".  In fact, I think I've personally provided advice and
guidance at least once to *every* DPL going all the way to Ian Murdock.
So a DPL isn't *completely* alone... but obviously, they are the final
decision maker on anything the constitution leaves to them.

> - the stress level is (I think) much higher than in technical core
>   teams.

I agree.

Bdale, who among other things was DPL in 2002-2003

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Bdale Garbee
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
Sam Hartman <[hidden email]> writes:

> How much of the DPL's financial role can be delegated?

Unclear.

> Would the governing procedures/bilaws/whatever of our trusted
> organizations permit a DPL to delegate some or all of this?

I think so.

However, I suspect this would not feel like a significant reduction in
workload, compared to the energy that goes in to listening to people
dealing with some form of interpersonal issue, and trying to help
resolve such situations?

Bdale

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Paul Wise via nm
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:05 AM Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

> Also, from the DPL POV, it would be very useful to have an annual
> report on Debian finances. I don't know if this exists nowadays.

Some of the TOs have annual reports, the SPI one includes some details
of Debian & DebConf money at SPI, including income, expenses and
balance.

https://spi-inc.org/corporate/annual-reports/2018.pdf

I figure one covering all of Debian's finances would have to come from
Debian's treasurers but I don't know if they have enough data from the
TOs yet.

https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Treasurer

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Paul Wise via nm
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:05 AM Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

> Responsibility #4: "Debian Monthly News"
> ----------------------------------------
> Over time, the DPL somehow has grown the responsibility of distributing
> news that are sometimes very loosely related to the DPL role.  That's
> probably a bad habit created by the pressure associated with the
> position that encourages to write lengthy emails to d-d-a even where
> there isn't that much visible stuff to report on, because lots of things
> are happening behind the scenes. If we elect another DPL, I would
> recommend that the next DPL limits those monthly reports strictly to DPL
> stuff (and leave the rest to the publicity team). The frequency could
> also be decreased a bit.

The misc dev news probably could increase in frequency and cover these
things, I think it would need more contributors though.

https://wiki.debian.org/DeveloperNews

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Martin Michlmayr
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
* Lucas Nussbaum <[hidden email]> [2019-03-14 00:05]:
> Also, from the DPL POV, it would be very useful to have an annual
> report on Debian finances. I don't know if this exists nowadays.

It doesn't.  I wanted to do something like that a few years ago but it
wasn't possible because we couldn't get the needed data from SPI at
that time.

Hector was going to put something together more recently but I haven't
seen it.
--
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Jose Miguel Parrella
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
lucas wrote:

> What could work is a group of people that are elected together, agree
> beforehand on how to share the various areas of responsibility, and
> synchronize very frequently to align their views. But it's probably hard
> to be efficient in the typical Debian setup, and to determine a split of
> responsibilities that would work.
>
> If people want to experiment in that direction, a group of people should
> probably come forward, choose one of them as the DPL candidate, and
> experiment after they get elected. It will always be time to write
> things in stone^Hthe constitution when we have an organization that seem
> to work and could be generalized.

I would strongly consider offering help to a DPL team structured this
way and chartered with offloading as many of the current delegations
plus the financial, spokesperson, conflict resolution and front desk
responsibilities from the DPL role as reasonable, including through
additional votes within the year.

Lucas, you also wrote:

        Responsibility #0: Keep Debian fun and functional

I guess many anecdotes about this can't be told via Bits from the DPL
but since Bdale seems to imply [0] that the people aspect is actually
the least avoidable and the most energy consuming of the role, can you
and/or other former DPLs provide some insights on why can't this be
handled by petit comite?

You allude to "the authority associated to the position" as part of the
DPL toolset. Do we think a DPLTeam would "lose" that? Conversely, if we
were to lighten the load on the DPL so that they could focus on people,
do we truly see the DPLite as Chief Mentor for the Project?

[0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2019/03/msg00026.html

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Lucas Nussbaum-4
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
On 13/03/19 at 21:04 -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

> How much of the DPL's financial role can be delegated?
> I understand that for example absent instructions otherwise the DPL is
> our expendature approval point for SPI (and presumably the other trusted
> organizations).
>
> Would the governing procedures/bilaws/whatever of our trusted
> organizations permit a DPL to delegate some or all of this?
>
> To be clear, I think a DPL would have to be careful of this and for
> example arrange things so they were ultimately accountable for Debian
> assets.
> I'm just curious about the procedural limitations on the DPL from our
> constitution and the rules of organizations who hold our money.
Internally in Debian, it would probably be possible to identify specific
areas of expenses (sprints, BSPs, travel to other events, DSA
infrastructure, other hardware, DebConf) and delegate approval in each
of those areas to a specific person. 5.1.10 might be a small issue, but
I don't think that we should feel constrained by the constitution if
what we are trying to achieve makes sense.

Our TOs[1] each have their own bylaws, and a review would be needed to
understand if delegating approval works for them. But surely that could
be solved. (As an example, for Debian France, the "règlement
intérieur"[2] requires the DPL to make the decisions).

Another schema could be to have a two-phases approval, with the
Treasurer team reviewing the requests and giving a first ACK, and the
DPL giving a second ACK. That could be easily organized using a ticket
system such as RT.

We also already have a system in place to simplify expenses made by
DSA[3].

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Treasurer/Organizations
[2] https://france.debian.net/documents/RI_debian_france.pdf
[3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/10/msg00001.html

Lucas

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Lucas Nussbaum-4
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm
On 14/03/19 at 12:21 +0800, Paul Wise wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:05 AM Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>
> > Also, from the DPL POV, it would be very useful to have an annual
> > report on Debian finances. I don't know if this exists nowadays.
>
> Some of the TOs have annual reports, the SPI one includes some details
> of Debian & DebConf money at SPI, including income, expenses and
> balance.
>
> https://spi-inc.org/corporate/annual-reports/2018.pdf

Yeah, but it's not very useful, because it's really far from providing
an annual breakdown such as:

Income
  Donations
    Individuals
    Companies
Expenses
  Sprints
  BSPs
  DebConf
  ...

> I figure one covering all of Debian's finances would have to come from
> Debian's treasurers but I don't know if they have enough data from the
> TOs yet.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Treasurer

One thing I realized quite late during my terms was that there are
actually two possible strategies here.

The first one is to trust TOs, request detailed accounting from them,
and then aggregate that to build a report. The problem with that is that
TOs have different QoS, and not all of them are able (AFAIK) to provide
sufficiently detailed information.

The second one (which requires more work on the Debian side) is to do
our own double-accounting, track all expenses, and track how they are
taken into account by TOs. Then for expenses the annual report could be
generated only from Debian data. Of course, there's still a problem with
income when it goes directly to the TO (e.g. donations using credit card
to SPI).

Ideally, the Treasurer team would do all the work of tracking expenses,
income, and generating such reports.

Lucas

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Lucas Nussbaum-4
In reply to this post by Jose Miguel Parrella
On 14/03/19 at 00:01 -0700, Jose Miguel Parrella wrote:

> lucas wrote:
> > What could work is a group of people that are elected together, agree
> > beforehand on how to share the various areas of responsibility, and
> > synchronize very frequently to align their views. But it's probably hard
> > to be efficient in the typical Debian setup, and to determine a split of
> > responsibilities that would work.
> >
> > If people want to experiment in that direction, a group of people should
> > probably come forward, choose one of them as the DPL candidate, and
> > experiment after they get elected. It will always be time to write
> > things in stone^Hthe constitution when we have an organization that seem
> > to work and could be generalized.
>
> I would strongly consider offering help to a DPL team structured this
> way and chartered with offloading as many of the current delegations
> plus the financial, spokesperson, conflict resolution and front desk
> responsibilities from the DPL role as reasonable, including through
> additional votes within the year.
>
> Lucas, you also wrote:
>
> Responsibility #0: Keep Debian fun and functional
>
> I guess many anecdotes about this can't be told via Bits from the DPL
> but since Bdale seems to imply [0] that the people aspect is actually
> the least avoidable and the most energy consuming of the role, can you
> and/or other former DPLs provide some insights on why can't this be
> handled by petit comite?

Well it could be handled by a team, and to some extend it's already the
case (with the team being DPL + A-H + DAM. A setting, for example, could
be a lead negociator for each case that seeks advice from other members
of the team. But that requires quite a lot of
coordination/synchronization (which is difficult in Debian due to its
distributed/asynchronous nature). Also, in the most difficult cases,
this does not really take away much load from the "lead negociator" that
is still very exposed.

> You allude to "the authority associated to the position" as part of the
> DPL toolset. Do we think a DPLTeam would "lose" that? Conversely, if we
> were to lighten the load on the DPL so that they could focus on people,
> do we truly see the DPLite as Chief Mentor for the Project?

A DPL team would, by design, dillute the authority, and open the door to
play people against each other. I suspect that this would be a problem
in the most difficult cases, but each case is different.

Lucas

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Lucas Nussbaum-4
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
On 14/03/19 at 00:05 +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> What could work is a group of people that are elected together, agree
> beforehand on how to share the various areas of responsibility, and
> synchronize very frequently to align their views. But it's probably hard
> to be efficient in the typical Debian setup, and to determine a split of
> responsibilities that would work.

So, thinking a bit more about that, and using
https://www.debian.org/intro/organization.en.html as a basis, a split
that could maybe work is:

1/ a deputy DPL in charge of overseeing the teams that work on the core
business of Debian (producing the distribution), and dealing with the
questions in that area. That includes monitoring the teams and detecting
inter-team issues, ensuring that each team is properly staffed, etc. So
it's the subset of #0 and #1 that deals with that area.  Teams covered:
FTP Archive, Backports, Release, CD Images, wanna-build, buildd, ports,
security, LTS, Policy, ... and probably the interactions with the Technical
Committee
[ that role covers a lot of things, but is not that hard because most of
those teams are pretty functional ]

2/ a deputy DPL in charge of social/people stuff.
Teams covered: DAM, Anti-Harassment, Keyring, data protection, Outreach,
NM, ...
[ that role is difficult for the obvious reasons ]

3/ a deputy DPL in charge of legal and financial matters.
Teams covered: Treasurer, Trademark, interactions with TOs and
organizations offering legal advice to Debian, approving expenses
[ that role is difficult because those teams are generally understaffed ]

4/ a deputy DPL in charge of Debian infrastructure
Teams covered: DSA, mirrors, maybe QA, Salsa, listmasters, ...
[ that role is quite easy because those teams are pretty functional ]

5/ a deputy DPL in charge of publicity and events [I'm not entirely sure
about that merge]
Teams covered: Publicity, Debconf Committee, Events, sprints
organization, etc.

6/ a DPL that coordinates this team, does the front desk work, and
garbage-collects the tasks that don't fit easily in one of those areas.

Lucas

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Hector Oron
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
Hello,

Missatge de Martin Michlmayr <[hidden email]> del dia dj., 14 de març
2019 a les 5:26:

> * Lucas Nussbaum <[hidden email]> [2019-03-14 00:05]:
> > Also, from the DPL POV, it would be very useful to have an annual
> > report on Debian finances. I don't know if this exists nowadays.

> It doesn't.  I wanted to do something like that a few years ago but it
> wasn't possible because we couldn't get the needed data from SPI at
> that time.

> Hector was going to put something together more recently but I haven't
> seen it.

Indeed, I tried to gather data to produce such report last year (early
2018), however few issues arised:
- numbers were far from being accurate
- TOs report their finances at different times in the year in different ways
- On Debian side we did not have a list of expenses/incomes. Expenses,
at least, should now be tracked via RT
- We keep dealing with unexpected issues with TOs.

Overall producing an annual report was quite difficult if we want it
to be accurate. Producing some rough numbers should be doable.
So, instead producing annual reports, I was thinking it'd be easier to
produce monthly updates in DPL report about which expenses have been
approved (and the amount).
If TO are able to tell use the monthly incomes, then we could add them
to the report as well.

Since Debian Treasurer team exists we have not been very good
communicating with community and there seems to be a bit of confusion,
so I'll get Debian Treasurer update to d-d-a in the following months.
However, let's get back on-topic and no worry about finances now but
find a good leader to drive the project for the following term.

Regards,
--
 Héctor Orón  -.. . -... .. .- -.   -.. . ...- . .-.. --- .--. . .-.

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Paul Wise via nm
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
On Thu, 2019-03-14 at 09:36 +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

> The second one (which requires more work on the Debian side) is to do
> our own double-accounting, track all expenses, and track how they are
> taken into account by TOs.

As far as I have seen Debian expenses, the Debian treasurers are not
always in the loop, but TO treasurers are since they do the paying, so
that would complicate this a bit, but I guess the DPL could forward
relevant mails or we could encourage people to CC the treasurers.

I expect both options are needed simultaneously.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Andrey Rahmatullin-3
In reply to this post by Lucas Nussbaum-4
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 10:24:58AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> So, thinking a bit more about that, and using
> https://www.debian.org/intro/organization.en.html as a basis, a split
> that could maybe work is:
Can it work without a GR?

--
WBR, wRAR

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Raphael Hertzog-3
In reply to this post by Bdale Garbee
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019, Bdale Garbee wrote:

> Lucas Nussbaum <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > - it's a position where you are often alone, and lack feedback
>
> This is true in the limit, but I, and a number of other former DPLs,
> have often made ourselves available to the acting DPL to act as a
> "sounding board".  In fact, I think I've personally provided advice and
> guidance at least once to *every* DPL going all the way to Ian Murdock.
> So a DPL isn't *completely* alone... but obviously, they are the final
> decision maker on anything the constitution leaves to them.
+1

FWIW, I have been a supporter of the idea of having a DPL team/board
for quite some time[1] and while I won't candidate myself this year, I would
be willing to help the next DPL... either through participation in a DPL
board that he would want to setup/experiment, or through advice, or
through (formal or informal) delegation of some subset of the workload,
etc.

Hoping that this will motivate someone to step up. I encourage others
to offer their help as well so that any DPL candidate has a chance to find
a few persons to help them.

[1] I was part of teams proposed by DPL-candidates and I candidated
twice with the idea of setting up a DPL team:
https://raphaelhertzog.com/2006/03/19/revisiting-the-dpl-team-concept/
https://www.debian.org/vote/2007/platforms/hertzog
https://www.debian.org/vote/2008/platforms/hertzog
Note that the ideas expressed at that time might no longer be 100%
relevant now and that if I were doing this again today, it would likely
be different.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Support Debian LTS: https://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html
Learn to master Debian: https://debian-handbook.info/get/

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Re: Debian Project Leader Elections 2019: Call for nominations

Joerg Jaspert
In reply to this post by Debian Project Secretary - Kurt Roeckx
On 15337 March 1977, Debian Project Secretary wrote:

> Since there were no candidates during the nomination period, the
> nomination period has been extended by 1 week.

Soo, lets ensure we do not have another week:

I hereby nominate myself for the DPL election 2019.

--
bye, Joerg

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