Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

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Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

maderios
Hi guys
Not for me but interesting.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ
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Maderios



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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Ric Moore
On 12/02/2014 04:47 AM, maderios wrote:
> Hi guys
> Not for me but interesting.
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ

"# More about the vision

This is just a start, as bold as it sounds to call it fork, at a
process that will unfold in time and involve more people, first to
import and change Debian packages and later on to maintain them under
a separate course. To help with this adventure and its growth, we ask
you all to get involved, but also to donate money so that we can cover
the costs of setting the new infrastructure in place.
https://devuan.org/donate.html   "

So kiddies, be sure to send in your checks and money orders so you can
all put your money where your mouth is. <cackles> Ric

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Märk Owen
In reply to this post by maderios
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:47:19 +0100
maderios <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys
> Not for me but interesting.
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ

It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.

These guys should have kept working on Debian and made sure every
package is compatible with whichever init system we choose.

Too bad, it won't happen. DI doubt very much that Devuan will last.
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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Aaron Toponce
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:20PM +0100, Märk Owen wrote:
> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> this way.

# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc

No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.

--
. o .   o . o   . . o   o . .   . o .
. . o   . o o   o . o   . o o   . . o
o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o

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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> > systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> > this way.  
 
> # apt-get install upstart
> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> # apt-get install openrc
> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.

Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
--
                 To delight in war is a merit in the soldier,
                     a dangerous quality in the captain,
                    and a positive crime in the statesman.
                                          -- George Santayana
                                   
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martin Steigerwald
Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:

> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
>
> Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> > > systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> > > this way.
> >
> > # apt-get install upstart
> > # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> > # apt-get install openrc
> > No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
>
> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
> when systemd may well become compulsory..."

Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable
without having any systemd related package installed.

I.e. making:

merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge systemd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree      
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
required:
  amor analitza-common blinken cantor cantor-backend-kalgebra filelight
kaccessible kalgebra kalgebra-common kalzium kalzium-data kanagram
  kbruch kcharselect kcolorchooser kde-config-cron kde-icons-mono
kdeaccessibility kdeadmin kdeartwork kdeartwork-style
  kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu kdeedu-kvtml-data
kdegraphics kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer
  kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdemultimedia kdenetwork kdenetwork-filesharing
kdetoys kdeutils kdf kgamma kgeography kgeography-data kgpg
  khangman kig kiten klettres klettres-data kmag kmousetool kmplot
kolourpaint4 kppp krdc kremotecontrol krfb kruler ksaneplugin kscd kstars
  kstars-data ksystemlog kteatime ktimer ktouch ktouch-data kturtle ktux kuser
kwordquiz libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1
  libanalitzaplot5abi1 libkdeedu-data libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 marble
pairs parley parley-data plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba
  print-manager qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 rocs step
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  colord* gvfs* gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* hplip* hplip-gui* k3b* k3b-i18n*
kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-standard*
  libpam-systemd* libvirt-daemon-system* network-manager* packagekit*
packagekit-tools* plasma-nm* plasma-widget-networkmanagement*
  policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome* polkit-kde-1* printer-driver-postscript-hp*
systemd* systemd-ui* udisks2*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 26 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 57.9 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

work.

And well systemd-shim and cgmanager *are* installed.

But that would be the bigger work… as it needs patching of upstream projects
*or* implementing the required functionality elsewhise.

Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Aaron Toponce
In reply to this post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 06:47:38PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
> when systemd may well become compulsory..."

Most would call that FUD.

--
. o .   o . o   . . o   o . .   . o .
. . o   . o o   o . o   . o o   . . o
o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o

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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Erwan David
In reply to this post by Martin Steigerwald
Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :

> Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:
>> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
>>
>> Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
>>>> systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
>>>> this way.
>>> # apt-get install upstart
>>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
>>> # apt-get install openrc
>>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
>> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
>> when systemd may well become compulsory..."
> Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable
> without having any systemd related package installed.
>
>

The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove
systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind
is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was
designed without any care for well known attacks.


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martin Steigerwald
Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David:

> Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :
> > Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:
> >> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
> >>
> >> Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> >>>> systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> >>>> this way.
> >>>
> >>> # apt-get install upstart
> >>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> >>> # apt-get install openrc
> >>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
> >>
> >> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after
> >> Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
> >
> > Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable
> > without having any systemd related package installed.
>
> The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove
> systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind
> is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was
> designed without any care for well known attacks.

I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".

But yes, my example was incomplete. With all related packages it looks like
this:

merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge libpam-systemd libsystemd-id128-0 libsystemd0
libsystemd0 systemd systemd-ui
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree      
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
required:
  abe-data analitza-common augeas-lenses bluez-obexd briquolo-data
  calligrastage-data celestia-common colobot-common
  colobot-common-sounds colobot-common-textures command-not-found
  dreamchess-data ebtables epiphany-data extremetuxracer-data
  extremetuxracer-extras ffmpegthumbs fonts-ebgaramond-extra
  freedroid-data freedroidrpg-data frogatto-data gir1.2-vte-2.90
  kalzium-data kde-config-cron kde-games-core-declarative
  kde-icons-mono kde-thumbnailer-deb kdeartwork-style
  kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu-kvtml-data
  kdegames-card-data kdegames-mahjongg-data kdegraphics-mobipocket
  kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer kdegraphics-thumbnailers
  kdenetwork-filesharing kdepim-mobileui-data kdesdk-strigi-plugins
  kdesdk-thumbnailers kexi-data kgamma kgeography-data klettres-data
  ksaneplugin kstars-data ktouch-data ktux lbreakout2-data
  libakonadi-socialutils4 libakonadi-xml4 libalure1 libanalitza5abi1
  libanalitzagui5abi1 libanalitzaplot5abi1 libapache-poi-java
  libaugeas0 libbluedevil2 libboost-chrono1.55.0 libboost-signals1.55.0
  libboost-wave1.55.0 libbulletcollision2.82 libbulletdynamics2.82
  libcommons-codec-java libcomposereditorng4 libdataquay0
  libdebconf-kde0 libdumb1 libechonest2.1 libfishsound1 libfox-1.6-0
  libfreeimage3 libfs6 libftgl2 libgcj-bc libgeoclue0 libglee0d1
  libgtkmm-3.0-1 libguess1 libgwengui-fox16-0 libgwengui-gtk2-0
  libgwenhywfar60-dev libid3-3.8.3c2a libkasten2controllers2
  libkasten2core2 libkasten2gui2 libkasten2okteta1controllers1abi1
  libkasten2okteta1core1 libkasten2okteta1gui1 libkdeedu-data
  libkdegames6abi1 libkdegamesprivate1abi1 libkeduvocdocument4
  libkiten4abi1 libkmahjongglib4 libktoblzcheck1-dev liblinearmath2.82
  liblo7 liblrdf0 liblsofui4 libmozjs185-1.0 libmxml1
  libmygui.ogreplatform0debian1 libmyguiengine3debian1 libnetcf1
  liboggz2 libogre-1.9.0 libokteta1core1 libokteta1gui1
  libparted-fs-resize0 libphysfs1 libprojectm2 libqapt1
  libqtgstreamerutils-0.10-0 libqxt-core0 libqxt-gui0 libraptor1
  librubberband2 libsublime8 libswt-cairo-gtk-3-jni
  libswt-glx-gtk-3-jni libswt-webkit-gtk-3-jni libunshield0
  libusbredirhost1 libva-glx1 libvte-2.90-9 libvte-2.90-common
  libxine2-bin libxine2-doc libxine2-ffmpeg libxml++2.6-2
  libxmlbeans-java libxmp4 manaplus-data neverball-common
  neverball-data oolite-data oolite-data-sounds oolite-doc openmw-data
  p7zip pachi-data palapeli-data parley-data pbzip2 pinball-data
  pingus-data pristine-tar projectm-data python-gdbm python-ipaddr
  python-opengl python-pyside.qtdeclarative python-pyside.qtgui
  python-pyside.qthelp python-pyside.qtnetwork python-pyside.qtopengl
  python-pyside.qtscript python-pyside.qtsql python-pyside.qtsvg
  python-pyside.qttest python-pyside.qtuitools python-pyside.qtwebkit
  python-pyside.qtxml python-urlgrabber qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1
  redshift scummvm-data supertux-data transcode-doc trophy-data
  ttf-femkeklaver ttf-unifont twolame unmo3 x11-session-utils
  x11-xfs-utils xinit
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following extra packages will be installed:
  icedtea-6-jre-cacao icedtea-6-jre-jamvm libqt4-phonon
  openjdk-6-jre-headless openjdk-6-jre-lib
Suggested packages:
  sun-java6-fonts fonts-ipafont-gothic fonts-ipafont-mincho fonts-indic

[…apt-get busy with dependency calculation, eating 100% of one core …]

The following packages will be REMOVED:
  abe* acpi-fakekey* adonthell* adonthell-data* akonadiconsole*
  akregator* alien* alsaplayer-common* amarok* amor* ark* avahi-daemon*
  baloo-dbg* baloo-utils* baloo4* bangarang* basic256* basket* blinken*
  blogilo* bluedevil* bluetooth* bluez* bluez-cups* bomber* bovo*
  braindump* briquolo* bsdmainutils* bsdutils* calligra*
  calligra-l10n-de* calligra-libs* calligra-semanticitems*
  calligraauthor* calligraflow* calligraplan* calligrasheets*
  calligrastage* calligrawords* cantor* cantor-backend-kalgebra*
  celestia-gnome* cervisia* clementine* colobot* colord* consolekit*
  cups* cups-core-drivers* cups-daemon* cups-pk-helper* cvsservice*
  dbus* dbus-1-dbg* dbus-x11* debconf-kde-helper* debhelper*
  default-jre* default-jre-headless* dh-autoreconf* digikam*
  digikam-doc* digikam-private-libs* dolphin* dragonplayer* dreamchess*
  e17* epiphany* equivs* espeak* etherape* evolution*
  evolution-data-server* evolution-plugins* extremetuxracer* filelight*
  flare* flare-engine* flight-of-the-amazon-queen* fop* freedroid*
  freedroidrpg* frogatto* frozen-bubble* fs-uae* fs-uae-arcade*
  fs-uae-launcher* gconf2* gcr* gimp* gimp-gmic* gir1.2-gtk-vnc-2.0*
  gir1.2-libvirt-glib-1.0* gir1.2-spice-client-glib-2.0*
  gir1.2-spice-client-gtk-3.0* git-buildpackage* gksu* gnash-common*
  gnome-keyring* gnome-session-bin* gnome-user-guide* granatier*
  gstreamer0.10-gconf* gstreamer0.10-plugins-good*
  gstreamer0.10-pulseaudio* gstreamer0.10-qapt*
  gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad* gstreamer1.0-pulseaudio* gvfs*
  gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* gwenview* hplip* hplip-gui*
  icedtea-7-jre-jamvm* icedtea-7-plugin* icedtea-netx* inkscape*
  javahelp2* jovie* juk* jxplorer* k3b* k3b-i18n* k4dirstat*
  kaccessible* kaddressbook* kaffeine* kalarm* kalgebra*
  kalgebra-common* kalzium* kanagram* kapman* kapptemplate* karbon*
  kate* katomic* kblackbox* kblocks* kbounce* kbreakout* kbruch*
  kcachegrind* kcalc* kcharselect* kcolorchooser* kde-baseapps*
  kde-baseapps-bin* kde-config-cddb* kde-config-telepathy-accounts*
  kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-runtime*
  kde-sc-dev-latest* kde-standard* kde-style-oxygen* kde-telepathy*
  kde-telepathy-auth-handler* kde-telepathy-call-ui*
  kde-telepathy-contact-list* kde-telepathy-declarative*
  kde-telepathy-desktop-applets* kde-telepathy-filetransfer-handler*
  kde-telepathy-integration-module* kde-telepathy-kpeople*
  kde-telepathy-minimal* kde-telepathy-send-file*
  kde-telepathy-text-ui* kde-window-manager* kde-workspace*
  kde-workspace-bin* kde-workspace-dev* kdeaccessibility* kdeadmin*
  kdeartwork* kdebase-apps* kdebase-runtime* kdeconnect* kdeedu*
  kdegames* kdegraphics* kdelibs5-dev* kdelibs5-plugins* kdemultimedia*
  kdenetwork* kdepasswd* kdepim* kdepim-dbg* kdepim-kresources*
  kdepim-runtime* kdepim-runtime-dbg* kdepimlibs-dbg* kdepimlibs5-dev*
  kdeplasma-addons* kdesdk* kdesdk-dolphin-plugins* kdesdk-kio-plugins*
  kdesdk-misc* kdesudo* kdetoys* kdeutils* kdevelop* kdevelop-php*
  kdevplatform8-libs* kdewebdev* kdf* kdiamond* kdm* kexi*
  kfilereplace* kfind* kfourinline* kgeography* kget* kgoldrunner*
  kgpg* khangman* khelpcenter4* kid3* kid3-core* kig* kigo* killbots*
  kimagemapeditor* kinfocenter* kio-audiocd* kipi-plugins* kiriki*
  kiten* kjots* kjumpingcube* kleopatra* klettres* klickety* klines*
  klinkstatus* klipper* kmag* kmahjongg* kmail* kmenuedit* kmines*
  kmix* kmousetool* kmouth* kmplot* kmtrace* kmymoney* knavalbattle*
  knetwalk* knode* knotes* kolf* kollision* kolourpaint4* kommander*
  kompare* konq-plugins* konqueror* konqueror-nsplugins* konquest*
  konsole* konsolekalendar* kontact* konversation* kopete* korganizer*
  kpartloader* kpat* kppp* krdc* kremotecontrol* krename* kreversi*
  krfb* krita* kruler* kscd* kscreen* kscreensaver* kshisen* ksirk*
  ksnapshot* kspaceduel* ksquares* kstars* ksudoku* ksysguard*
  ksystemlog* kteatime* ktimer* ktimetracker* ktorrent* ktouch* ktron*
  ktuberling* kturtle* kubrick* kuiviewer* kuser* kwalletmanager*
  kwordquiz* kwrite* lbreakout2* libakonadi-calendar4*
  libakonadi-contact4* libaqbanking34-dev* libasound2-plugins*
  libav-tools* libavdevice55* libbonoboui2-0* libcalendarsupport4*
  libclanapp-1.0* libespeak1* libeventviews4* libfarstream-0.1-0*
  libfarstream-0.2-2* libfluidsynth1* libfreerdp-plugins-standard*
  libgegl-0.2-0* libgksu2-0* libgnome-2-0* libgnome2-0* libgnome2-bin*
  libgnome2-common* libgnomeui-0* libgnomevfs2-0* libgnomevfs2-common*
  libgnomevfs2-extra* libgtk-vnc-2.0-0* libgvnc-1.0-0*
  libincidenceeditorsng4* libk3b6* libk3b6-extracodecs*
  libkactivities-bin* libkactivities-dev* libkateinterfaces4*
  libkcddb4* libkcompactdisc4* libkdepim4* libkdepimdbusinterfaces4*
  libkhtml5* libknotifyconfig4* libkonq-common* libkonq5abi1*
  libkopete4* libkpeople3* libksieveui4* libktpcommoninternalsprivate7*
  libktploggerprivate7* libktpmodelsprivate7* libktpwidgetsprivate7*
  libkworkspace4abi2* libmailcommon4* libmailimporter4*
  libmarblewidget19* libmediastreamer-base3* libmessagecomposer4*
  libmessagecore4* libmessagelist4* libmessageviewer4* libmikmod3*
  libmlt++3* libmlt6* libnoteshared4* libnss-mdns* libokularcore5*
  libpam-systemd* libphonon-dev* libphonon4* libphononexperimental4*
  libpimcommon4* libplasma3* libplasmaclock4abi4*
  libplasmagenericshell4* libpolkit-agent-1-0* libpolkit-backend-1-0*
  libpolkit-gobject-1-0* libpolkit-qt-1-1* libpulse-mainloop-glib0*
  libpulse0* libpurple-bin* libpurple0* libqapt-runtime*
  libreoffice-kde* libsdl-gfx1.2-5* libsdl-image1.2* libsdl-mixer1.2*
  libsdl-net1.2* libsdl-pango1* libsdl-perl* libsdl-ttf2.0-0*
  libsdl1.2debian* libsdl2-2.0-0* libsdl2-ttf-2.0-0* libsmpeg0*
  libspice-client-glib-2.0-8* libspice-client-gtk-3.0-4*
  libswt-gnome-gtk-3-jni* libswt-gtk-3-java-gcj* libsystemd-id128-0*
  libsystemd0* libtelepathy-farstream3* libtelepathy-qt4-farstream2*
  libtemplateparser4* libtheora-bin* libvirt-clients* libvirt-daemon*
  libvirt-daemon-system* libvirt-glib-1.0-0* libvirt0* libweather-ion6*
  libxine2* libxine2-misc-plugins* libxine2-plugins* libxine2-x*
  lintian* lokalize* lsb-core* lskat* lxde-common* lxde-core*
  lxsession* man-db* manaplus* marble* marble-plugins* melt*
  modemmanager* mplayer2* mpv* mssh* network-manager* neverball*
  numptyphysics* okteta* okular* okular-extra-backends* oolite*
  openbox-gnome-session* openjdk-7-jdk* openjdk-7-jre*
  openjdk-7-jre-headless* openmw* openmw-launcher* out-of-order* pachi*
  packagekit* packagekit-tools* pairs* palapeli* parley*
  partitionmanager* pavucontrol* pcsxr* performous* phonon*
  phonon-backend-gstreamer* phonon-backend-gstreamer-dbg*
  phonon-backend-vlc* phonon-backend-vlc-dbg* picmi* pidgin* pinball*
  pingus* plasma-containments-addons* plasma-dataengines-addons*
  plasma-dataengines-workspace* plasma-desktop* plasma-netbook*
  plasma-nm* plasma-runner-installer* plasma-runner-telepathy-contact*
  plasma-runners-addons* plasma-scriptengine-javascript*
  plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba* plasma-wallpapers-addons*
  plasma-widget-folderview* plasma-widget-ktorrent*
  plasma-widget-lancelot* plasma-widget-menubar*
  plasma-widget-networkmanagement* plasma-widgets-addons*
  plasma-widgets-workspace* policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome*
  polkit-kde-1* print-manager* printer-driver-gutenprint*
  printer-driver-hpcups* printer-driver-postscript-hp*
  printer-driver-splix* python-libvirt* python-pygame* python-pyside*
  python-pyside.phonon* qapt-batch* qapt-deb-installer* qapt-utils*
  qemu* qemu-kvm* qemu-system* qemu-system-arm* qemu-system-mips*
  qemu-system-misc* qemu-system-ppc* qemu-system-sparc*
  qemu-system-x86* qt4-qtconfig* quassel-client-kde4* quilt*
  redshift-plasmoid* rekonq* rocksndiamonds* rocs* schism* scummvm*
  sflphone-daemon* skanlite* sludge-engine* solarus* sonic-visualiser*
  speech-dispatcher* speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins*
  spice-client-glib-usb-acl-helper* step* supertux* sweeper* systemd*
  systemd-ui* systemsettings* telepathy-haze* telepathy-salut*
  tp-smapi-source* transcode* trophy* udisks2* umbrello* upower* uqm*
  uqm-content* uqm-music* uqm-voice* uuid-runtime* virt-manager*
  virt-viewer* virtinst* virtualbox* virtualbox-dkms* virtualbox-qt*
  vlc* vlc-plugin-pulse* weston* x11-apps* xmp* xorg* yelp* zsdx*
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  icedtea-6-jre-cacao icedtea-6-jre-jamvm libqt4-phonon
  openjdk-6-jre-headless openjdk-6-jre-lib
WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
  bsdutils libsystemd0 (due to bsdutils)
0 upgraded, 5 newly installed, 561 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 37.9 MB of archives.
After this operation, 2179 MB disk space will be freed.
You are about to do something potentially harmful.
To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'
 ?]

So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running completely
without any systemd related packages gives you a really crippled system.

Basically it would deinstall the desktop I use.

Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Laurent Bigonville-5
Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100,
Martin Steigerwald <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David:
> > Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :
> > > Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:
> > >> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
> > >>
> > >> Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral
> > >>>> about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it
> > >>>> forced upon me this way.
> > >>>
> > >>> # apt-get install upstart
> > >>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> > >>> # apt-get install openrc
> > >>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just
> > >>> silly.
> > >>
> > >> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release
> > >> after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
> > >
> > > Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME
> > > installable without having any systemd related package installed.
> >
> > The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to
> > remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all
> > that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which
> > showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks.
>
> I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".
> [...]
>
> So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
> completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
> crippled system.

As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
package on my machine" use case into account you know.

But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling
the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and
other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make
them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the
systemd package completely.


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martin Steigerwald
Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 12:39:26 schrieb Laurent Bigonville:

> Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100,
>
> Martin Steigerwald <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> > Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David:
> > > Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :
> > > > Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:
> > > >> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
> > > >>
> > > >> Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >>>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral
> > > >>>> about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it
> > > >>>> forced upon me this way.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> # apt-get install upstart
> > > >>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> > > >>> # apt-get install openrc
> > > >>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just
> > > >>> silly.
> > > >>
> > > >> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release
> > > >> after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory..."
> > > >
> > > > Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME
> > > > installable without having any systemd related package installed.
> > >
> > > The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to
> > > remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all
> > > that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which
> > > showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks.
> >
> > I explicetely wrote "any systemd related package".
> > [...]
> >
> > So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
> > completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
> > crippled system.
>
> As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
> package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
> PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
> package on my machine" use case into account you know.

Laurent, I wrote:

> > So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running
> > completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really
> > crippled system.

For me that states clearly that I am perfectly aware of that.

So I do not get why you repeat it and even complain that its already explained
several times on this ML as actually I think I did not leave a trace of doubt
of my awareness of that in the way I have written this.

> But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling
> the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and
> other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make
> them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the
> systemd package completely.

I just showed this.

I am not sure whether I have a concern about it.

But its a topic the devuan fork can extend upon whats currently available in
Debian. Whether it would be necessary to fork Debian for that, I don´t know.
That would depend on whether maintainers of the involved Debian packages would
accept patches which can make them (maybe optionally?) use ConsoleKit again. I
bet there may be a limit on what the maintainers of the official Debian packages
would accept there.

Of course, its also thinkable to provide those patches upstream, but I have
doubt that GNOME maintainers would accept them.

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Erwan David
In reply to this post by Laurent Bigonville-5
>
> As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0
> package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as
> PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the "I don't want any systemd
> package on my machine" use case into account you know.

Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be
vulnerable to a well known attack.  What makes us think that more
quality was put in systemd-logind ? Not wanting systemd means not
wanting it *at all*. I personnally do not trust it for critical system
tasks.


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martinx - ジェームズ
In reply to this post by Aaron Toponce
On 2 December 2014 at 19:22, Aaron Toponce <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:20PM +0100, Märk Owen wrote:
>> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
>> systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
>> this way.
>
> # apt-get install upstart
> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> # apt-get install openrc

I doubt that this will work in the near future (jessie +1).

Debian/Devuan WILL NEED an `udev` alternative to keep `sysinit-core` working.

Sooner or later, there will be no more `sysvinit-core`, `upstart` or
whatever, because `systemd` guys engulfed `udev` and they are change
it to make sure it will only work with systemd = PID1, this sucks,
_this is extortion_ (kind of). Everybody that falls for that, will
regret.

Devuan will need something like `eudev` to succeed.

It is freaking unbelievable that Debian is now following RedHat after
all we achieved during those ~two decades, by ourselves.

I'm not against `systemd` itself, I'm against the lack of freedom to
choose whatever init I need/want. Systemd is here, fine, but as an
option ONLY. Well, no.

Jessie isn't Debian.

Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
joining Devuan... lol

Cheers!


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:37:02 -0200
Martinx - ジェームズ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sooner or later, there will be no more `sysvinit-core`, `upstart` or
> whatever, because `systemd` guys engulfed `udev` and they are change
> it to make sure it will only work with systemd = PID1, this sucks,

Very likely, Jēmuzu, and they will explain their actions with"Well, everyone has shifted to systemd, so there is no point..."

And we must do something...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
--
 
           All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph
                    is for enough good men to do nothing.
                                                   -- Edmund Burke
                                   
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

maderios
In reply to this post by Martinx - ジェームズ
On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:

> Jessie isn't Debian.
>
> Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
> joining Devuan... lol
>
I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
why some people complain about systemd.
Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will
forget that systemd is new...
--
Maderios



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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martin Read-2
In reply to this post by Martinx - ジェームズ
On 03/12/14 19:37, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
> Debian/Devuan WILL NEED an `udev` alternative to keep `sysinit-core` working.

Perhaps. On the other hand, they might only need an alternative
implementation of the user-space glue that makes kdbus work.

> Devuan will need something like `eudev` to succeed.

Conveniently, eudev already exists, has active maintainers, and is
readily obtainable in source code form. Anyone willing to embark on a
project like Devuan should be perfectly capable of getting it packaged.

> Jessie isn't Debian.

So you say. Others have a different opinion.


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Märk Owen
In reply to this post by maderios
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100
maderios <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
>
> > Jessie isn't Debian.
> >
> > Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
> > joining Devuan... lol
> >
> I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
> why some people complain about systemd.
> Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone
> will forget that systemd is new...

What about the people who will want to use another init system in
Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right?

Is that still the case here? That's the true question in this debate.


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martinx - ジェームズ
In reply to this post by maderios
Hi Madeiros!

I'm also using `systemd`, I'm working to use Enlightenment with
Wayland (to kick Xorg off) and, it depends on `systemd`.

I just don't think that it is wise to put all of our eggs into the same basket.

This `systemd` being pushed everywhere looks like a huge monoculture,
which is very, very dangerous.

Also, ALL my production servers, that are public (Internet faced),
uses the GRSecurity Linux Patch, and `systemd` doesn't work with it.
So, right now, `systemd` only makes sense at Desktops. And I mean it.

So, my job/company depends on `sysvinit-core` / `upstart` and there is
no plans to use `systemd` at our servers (and I'm talking about
hundreds of Linux instances, physical servers and virtual machines).

Cheers!

On 3 December 2014 at 18:50, maderios <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
>
>> Jessie isn't Debian.
>>
>> Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
>> joining Devuan... lol
>>
> I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why
> some people complain about systemd.
> Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will
> forget that systemd is new...
> --
> Maderios
>
>
>
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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martinx - ジェームズ
In reply to this post by Märk Owen
On 3 December 2014 at 19:18, Märk Owen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100
> maderios <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
>>
>> > Jessie isn't Debian.
>> >
>> > Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel
>> > joining Devuan... lol
>> >
>> I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand
>> why some people complain about systemd.
>> Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone
>> will forget that systemd is new...
>
> What about the people who will want to use another init system in
> Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right?
>
> Is that still the case here? That's the true question in this debate.

BTW, I just mentioned a valid example:

I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`.

I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy
`systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd]
doesn't work here.

If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give
it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan...

Lennart do not care about that:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that?


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

Martin Read-2
On 03/12/14 21:52, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:

> I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`.
>
> I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy
> `systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd]
> doesn't work here.
>
> If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give
> it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan...
>
> Lennart do not care about that:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that?

A cursory search using duckduckgo with the search terms:

        +grsecurity +systemd

leads me, directly and indirectly, to information on various web sites
associated with Arch Linux, Gentoo, and grsecurity which lead me to
believe that it is possible to work around the problem described in that
bug report without completely disabling CONFIG_GRKERNSEC_PROC. (Of
course, I recognize that in any given situation, it may not be
acceptable to make the necessary configuration changes.)

That said, I don't see a problem with Lennart's position in that bug
report anyway. "Well, this sounds useful, but I don't see how we can
support this, we need access to the PID directory of the sender of
messages, to collect metadata, there's really no way around it." seems
like a perfectly reasonable explanation for things not
working-as-intended on systems where that access is not available.


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