Debian *not very good

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Debian *not very good

oldbluebear
Hi, I am one disgruntled punter.

I have been using Debian since early 1990s. I use it to do useful work
so any problem with the o/s is a pain in the butt. meaning I have to
spend scarce time resolving bugs that should have been removed before it
was released. -classic garage software I suppose- but not what I would
expect from Debian.

I have just upgraded to 8. I did it  reluctantly because every version
of Debian has drifted further and further from the K&R UNIX model. Same
with this version, only this time the thing (Debian 8) crashes one boot
in 3.

The error message:"A start job is running for LSB: Raise network
interface (xx sec/no limit)". Where xx is a count up in seconds that
never ends.  What is LBC ?

My fix is to hit hardware shutdown button which brings the machine
gracefully down and reboot, this is still a time wasting activity as I
must sit and watch the boot rather go on with the process of powering up
the rest of my kit.

Why can you people not leave the interfaces etc alone rather than fiddle.

This time I  find the current Debian as part of the install process has
created a "Document" where it wants to save any .doc file.  I do not
want this, I want them on my Desktop from which I move them manually.
How do I get rid of this action  which I do not want, As I can see no
simple way to revert to saving documents on my Desktop which is what I
want; rather what some spotty faced kid has decided i should have.


I am at the point where I am now seriously going to look at what other
Linux versions are available or maybe pull one of the earlier Debian
Distro CDs I still have in my store and load that simply to get back an
environment in which I can work.

For me 90% of the stuff now included in Debian Distro 8 is a waste of
valuable disk space, and time installing it amd later backing it up.

All I need is a basic system, kernel, file system,  including C compiler
that understands standard white book C without frills, with standard
/bin/sh for shell scripts. and Gimp for screenshot manipulation. So I
can load on top of that "basic system" real Thunderbird,  Firefox and
pdf tools. Everything else is top hamper. Again I only need US English
(and maybe UK English but can manage with just US only) the other
languages again are clutter.

My desktop is green (eye safe) no pictures to gobble up CPU  everything
is stripped down so the AMD multi-core CPU is there to  run my software
not decorate the screen.

Why can yo not provide that, and then for those who choose it let them
add all the gizmo stuff that eats CPU, rather than wishing that stuff on
every installation.

Maybe I am just a crusty old guy who has been "playing" with the source
code of  UNIX (Destiny) and UNIX-like O/Ss for too long. But I am very
unimpressed with my system  as it now is; after performing the Debian 8
upgraded.  And OK it is "free" but if it is unusable out the box, and I
must take time fixing it, that is not what I would expect.

The upgrade ran fine, but Debian 8 broke my housekeeping shell scripts
that have been running for the last 10+ years. [One set of scripts (now
at revision 21) fires off via rc.local at boot-time. It Telnets into
each of my modems and pull the ADSL line stats to a continuous log file;
swapping log files every 12 hours. A second script grabs the last set of
stats from the log file and throws them on screen  8; as a visual check
the sampler is running, and for immediate info. All done with smoke and
mirrors hi!].

How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

What is LBC ? I am getting screens of stuff that no longer makes sense.



best 73s, (dja)  OldBlueBear




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Re: Debian *not very good

Brian
On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:

[...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]

> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

You can bring it back in all its glory with

  apt-get install sysvinit-core

--
Brian.

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Network connection fails during boot [Was: Debian *not very good]

Henning Follmann
In reply to this post by oldbluebear
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:21:23PM +0000, oldbluebear wrote:

> Hi, I am one disgruntled punter.
>
> I have been using Debian since early 1990s. I use it to do useful work so
> any problem with the o/s is a pain in the butt. meaning I have to spend
> scarce time resolving bugs that should have been removed before it was
> released. -classic garage software I suppose- but not what I would expect
> from Debian.
>
> I have just upgraded to 8. I did it  reluctantly because every version of
> Debian has drifted further and further from the K&R UNIX model. Same with
> this version, only this time the thing (Debian 8) crashes one boot in 3.
>
> The error message:"A start job is running for LSB: Raise network interface
> (xx sec/no limit)". Where xx is a count up in seconds that never ends.  What
> is LBC ?
>

Do you just want to vent or would you be interested in some help? The
subject line suggest the first.

However I will just ignor this and point you in the rioght direction.
You have installed your debian in  a "false" way. And I mean that in the
way that your network configuration most likely does not work well.
Somehow you could let the network manager deal with your network
connection. Then this error message will just go away. Most likely the
message does also not appear when your network interface is plugged in and
connects to the network.
If you however inssit to manage your network manually ifplugd or some
daemon which helps you to detect the state of your interface will help you
to get rid of this issue.

[...] <rambling how everything back then was better deleted/>

If you want a computer setup like 20 years ago, just install a basic
version (during tasksel deselect everything) and install everything you
want like you did 10 years ago. It will work just like you want it.

fluxbox is still packaged and will give you the minimalistic desktop you
want so much.





-H


--
Henning Follmann           | [hidden email]

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Re: Debian *not very good

Joel Wirāmu Pauling
In reply to this post by Brian
Sorry I can't resist;


Seriously tho; If you had RTFM you would have known systemd and friends were going to be the default on upgrade and taken steps to migrate your init.d scripts beforehand. 

Also you heavily modified base (which by your own admission, you had -  "stripped down") and you expected major version upgrade to magically know about your modifications. Did you submit your changes to startup scripts upstream somewhere? Were the developers and QA to know you had taken widget X out and replaced it Sprocket Y, was this done in a way that was compliant with widget X and sprocket Y's manuals? Should you have had a reasonable expectation that what you changed was something others do ?

You should have likely done a clean install and migrated piecemeal knowing you had removed large chunks of what is considered minimal from previous versions, on upgrade minimal would have dragged a lot of base back in, and yes in absence of some of what was considered the 'defacto' done things wrongly including drag in a bunch of dependencies.

I think if you want to do what you are doing maybe you should look at lsb.



On 25 November 2016 at 08:31, Brian <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:

[...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]

> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

You can bring it back in all its glory with

  apt-get install sysvinit-core

--
Brian.



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Re: Debian *not very good

David Christensen
In reply to this post by oldbluebear
On 11/25/2016 07:21 AM, oldbluebear wrote:
> Hi, I am one disgruntled punter. ...

I've been doing console/ server Debian since 1.5 and daily graphical
desktop since 5.  cdrtools was a problem.  systemd is worse.  I'm
currently on 7 and considering replacing Debian when Wheezy is retired.


You might want to complete the "Debian Contributors Survey 2016".  There
is a free-form comment box at the end where you can vent:

    http://debian.limequery.org/696747


My suggestion was for Debian to build Linux distributions tied to
specific long-term Linux kernel releases (3.2, 3.16, 4.4, etc.), each
with only enough content to provide a self-hosting Unix work-alike OS:

    https://www.kernel.org/category/releases.html


The idea is to limit the scope of Debian, and thereby provide a
programming systems product [1] that other projects can target --
programming languages, shells, router/ firewall packages, file servers,
database servers, web servers, mail servers, application servers,
terminal servers, X windows, window managers, desktops, office suites,
multimedia players/ editors, etc..  Let the users decide what to add to
their Debian systems.


Does anybody know if such a FOSS OS distribution already exists?


David

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

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Re: Debian *not very good

The Wanderer
In reply to this post by Joel Wirāmu Pauling
On 2016-11-25 at 14:02, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:

> Seriously tho; If you had RTFM you would have known systemd and
> friends were going to be the default on upgrade and taken steps to
> migrate your init.d scripts beforehand.

To be fair, it's entirely reasonable to expect that a change in what
defaults will only affect new installs, not upgrades; in an upgrade
scenario, the defaults have already been applied (during the original
install), so there's no reason for the new defaults to get invoked.

As I tried to point out repeatedly during the major periods of the
systemd debate, different people understand the word "default" in
different ways; the interpretation which I would take out of it does not
necessarily match the interpretation which you would take out of it, and
the interpretation which the speaker meant by it may be different again.
Thus, talking about a change in the default - without clarifying exactly
what you understand "default" to mean - is not particularly helpful for
conveying information.

Looking back now, I would also add that the interpretation which seems
to have been implemented in actual practice is one of the broadest
available.

--
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw


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Re: Debian *not very good

Debian-85
In reply to this post by Brian
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
>
> [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
>
>> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
>
> You can bring it back in all its glory with
>
>   apt-get install sysvinit-core

Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
Thanks.

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Re: Debian *not very good

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by oldbluebear
oldbluebear composed on 2016-11-25 15:21 (UTC):

> I am at the point where I am now seriously going to look at what other
> Linux versions are available or maybe pull one of the earlier Debian
> Distro CDs I still have in my store and load that simply to get back an
> environment in which I can work.
...
> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

Maybe a do-over would make more sense. A look at these Debian-derived
opportunities for simpler times might be worth your time:

http://antix.mepis.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

http://exegnulinux.net/

Both offer Grub Legacy at least via option.

If you'd rather a pure Debian path initially resulting in the latter Desktop
(TDE, a fork of KDE3), you could do a fresh Debian minimal installation with
sysvinit-core, then add TDE sources and apt to it (minimal with TDE is what I do
as a matter of course, allowing the systemd infection).
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Debian *not very good

Brian
In reply to this post by Debian-85
On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 21:26:06 +0000, Latincom wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:
>
> > On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> >
> > [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> >
> >> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> >
> > You can bring it back in all its glory with
> >
> >   apt-get install sysvinit-core
>
> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> Thanks.

Please see the Release Notes.

--
Brian.

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Re: Debian *not very good

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by Debian-85
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Latincom <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:
>
> > On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> >
> > [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> >
> >> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> >
> > You can bring it back in all its glory with
> >
> >   apt-get install sysvinit-core
>
> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> Thanks.

If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
replaced with systemd.  And probably screw everything up.. I suggest
you do what I did: a clean install of a terminal only Jessie system,
replace systemd with sysvinit, then build the system up from there.
Just remember GNOME3 has systemd as a dependency.  Other utilities do,
too. I used LXDE which doesn't to keep things simple.  I usually just
run a window manager Openbox and a single LXPanel, but that involves a
lot more configuration.  Too much for an initial test.

These links may help:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
https://community.spiceworks.com/how_to/117634-gnu-linux-debian-without-systemd

There's a Debian wiki to replace systemd, but I couldn't find it this
time.  It was what I used initially for my test install of Jessie in
Virtualbox.

B

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Re: Debian *not very good

David Wright-3
In reply to this post by The Wanderer
On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:34:01 (-0500), The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2016-11-25 at 14:02, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:
>
> > Seriously tho; If you had RTFM you would have known systemd and
> > friends were going to be the default on upgrade and taken steps to
> > migrate your init.d scripts beforehand.
>
> To be fair, it's entirely reasonable to expect that a change in what
> defaults will only affect new installs, not upgrades; in an upgrade
> scenario, the defaults have already been applied (during the original
> install), so there's no reason for the new defaults to get invoked.

It's not clear to me whether the OP upgraded with dist-upgrade or with
a new install. "This time I  find the current Debian as part of the
install process..." suggests the latter.

I do have another problem understanding the OP. Their list of required
software makes no mention of a DE, yet they appear to use one, and to
have installed nine times as many packages as they desire. I can't
square that with someone who hacks Unix source code and claims to have
been using Debian since it was version 0.9X or earlier, a time when
the total number of *files* in the distribution was far fewer than the
number of *packages* available now.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Debian *not very good

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by oldbluebear
oldbluebear composed on 2016-11-25 15:21 (UTC):

> I am at the point where I am now seriously going to look at what other
> Linux versions are available or maybe pull one of the earlier Debian
> Distro CDs I still have in my store and load that simply to get back an
> environment in which I can work.
...
> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

Maybe a do-over would make more sense. A look at these Debian-derived
opportunities for simpler times might be worth your time:

http://antix.mepis.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

http://exegnulinux.net/

Both offer Grub Legacy at least via option.

If you'd rather a pure Debian path initially resulting in the latter Desktop
(TDE, a fork of KDE3), you could do a fresh Debian minimal installation with
sysvinit-core, then add TDE sources and apt to it (minimal with TDE is what I do
as a matter of course, allowing the systemd infection).

Addendum: more ways to get TDE on Debian than I knew:
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/LiveCDs
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

   Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Patrick Bartek-2
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On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Latincom <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> > >
> > > [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> > >
> > >> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> > >
> > > You can bring it back in all its glory with
> > >
> > >   apt-get install sysvinit-core
> >
> > Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> > I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> > Thanks.
>
> If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> replaced with systemd.

Not forcefully.

> And probably screw everything up..

Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)

> I suggest
> you do what I did: a clean install of a terminal only Jessie system,
> replace systemd with sysvinit, then build the system up from there.
> Just remember GNOME3 has systemd as a dependency.  Other utilities do,
> too. I used LXDE which doesn't to keep things simple.  I usually just
> run a window manager Openbox and a single LXPanel, but that involves a
> lot more configuration.  Too much for an initial test.

While possible, this isn't really necessary. FWIW I managed a clean
Jessie upgrade without touching systemd, by just following the
instructions.

If you want a straight upgrade without systemd, apt-pinning seems
to be the agreed upon way:

  https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system

Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
want a "modern" desktop environment.

Myself, I'm on Fvwm. I don't even need DBUS :-D

thanks

[1] Sorry for the somewhat grumpy tone, but I'm pretty tired of people
   whining about systemd and borderline disrupting otherwise functional
   mailing lists with their rage. I strongly dislike systemd, yes, but
   i see no reason to hate systemd proponents let alone to harrass them.
   On the contrary, they are doing free software, FFS!

   If all that energy spent on foaming at the mouth and hatred had been
   spent on keeping viable alternatives to systemd afloat and running,
   we'd be in much better shape these days (and perhaps MikeeeUSA
   would have found other coattails to ride on).

- -- tomás
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Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

Joe Rowan
On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> >
> > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > replaced with systemd.  
>
> Not forcefully.
>
> > And probably screw everything up..  
>
> Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)
>

A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times.
Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making the
change to systemd without problems?

I converted a sid to systemd, but had to give up on it as it became too
flaky, unstable in all senses of the word. A workstation isn't really a
problem to reinstall from scratch, an old server is a nightmare.

Obviously I had to do a reinstallation to move to 64 bits, but that was
a get-selections/set-selections job, with the old /etc pretty much
copied over. All the same software, just 64 bit, and more importantly,
all the old scripts. That's not going to work with a systemd-based
reinstall.

>
> If you want a straight upgrade without systemd, apt-pinning seems
> to be the agreed upon way:
>
>   https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system
>
> Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
> these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
> want a "modern" desktop environment.
>
> Myself, I'm on Fvwm. I don't even need DBUS :-D
>

And my server doesn't have X. But I don't expect that to eliminate all
systemd problems.

--
Joe

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Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

tomas@tuxteam.de
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On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:27:07AM +0000, Joe wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>
> > >
> > > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > > replaced with systemd.  
> >
> > Not forcefully.
> >
> > > And probably screw everything up..  
> >
> > Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> > the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)
> >
>
> A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times.
> Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making the
> change to systemd without problems?

[...]

> And my server doesn't have X. But I don't expect that to eliminate all
> systemd problems.

I'd say you are in a pretty good shape to choose whatever init system
suits you without big problems, then.

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

Henning Follmann
In reply to this post by Joe Rowan
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:27:07AM +0000, Joe wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>
> > >
> > > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > > replaced with systemd.  
> >
> > Not forcefully.
> >
> > > And probably screw everything up..  
> >
> > Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> > the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)
> >
>
> A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times.
> Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making the
> change to systemd without problems?
>

A reasonable amount.
I did it, and experienced no issues at all. In fact I had more issues while
upgrading to wheezy.

> I converted a sid to systemd, but had to give up on it as it became too
> flaky, unstable in all senses of the word. A workstation isn't really a
> problem to reinstall from scratch, an old server is a nightmare.
>
> Obviously I had to do a reinstallation to move to 64 bits, but that was
> a get-selections/set-selections job, with the old /etc pretty much
> copied over. All the same software, just 64 bit, and more importantly,
> all the old scripts. That's not going to work with a systemd-based
> reinstall.

You hardly can blame systemd for a 32/64 bit switch.
so you exchange binaries, and? Not s systemd issue.

And while we are at a network issue topic (OP).
Systemd is actually better than any network-manager or your beloved init
scripts at that. It tracks much more reliably the status of your interfaces
than any other method. Period.

-H



--
Henning Follmann           | [hidden email]

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Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

Joe Rowan
On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:01:33 -0500
Henning Follmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:27:07AM +0000, Joe wrote:
> > On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >  
> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:  
> >  
> > > >
> > > > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will
> > > > be replaced with systemd.    
> > >
> > > Not forcefully.
> > >  
> > > > And probably screw everything up..    
> > >
> > > Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking
> > > holes the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I
> > > were you ;-)
> >
> > A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many
> > times. Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a
> > system making the change to systemd without problems?
> >  
>
> A reasonable amount.
> I did it, and experienced no issues at all. In fact I had more issues
> while upgrading to wheezy.

Good to hear. Yes, upgrades have been getting progressively less easy.

>
> > I converted a sid to systemd, but had to give up on it as it became
> > too flaky, unstable in all senses of the word. A workstation isn't
> > really a problem to reinstall from scratch, an old server is a
> > nightmare.
> >
> > Obviously I had to do a reinstallation to move to 64 bits, but that
> > was a get-selections/set-selections job, with the old /etc pretty
> > much copied over. All the same software, just 64 bit, and more
> > importantly, all the old scripts. That's not going to work with a
> > systemd-based reinstall.  
>
> You hardly can blame systemd for a 32/64 bit switch.
> so you exchange binaries, and? Not s systemd issue.

Sorry, I may not have been clear, I was saying that reinstalling to
jump the 32/64 bit barrier has been the only significant upheaval in
the progress of my server since sarge, and that reinstallation was like
for like and therefore quite simple.

If I have to reinstall the server with systemd from the beginning,
because the upgrade is too difficult, then restoring its current
functionality is likely to be significantly harder than the 32/64 bit
change was. I will be migrating configurations between different Debian
versions manually, at the same time as dealing with any systemd issues.
I hope very much to avoid the need for that.

>
> And while we are at a network issue topic (OP).
> Systemd is actually better than any network-manager or your beloved
> init scripts at that. It tracks much more reliably the status of your
> interfaces than any other method. Period.
>

Good, although I have had no trouble with networking so far, and have
never installed network-manager on this machine. It has two permanent
Ethernet ports and no other interfaces than lo and an openvpn server.

--
Joe

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Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

Mart van de Wege
Joe <[hidden email]> writes:

> Sorry, I may not have been clear, I was saying that reinstalling to
> jump the 32/64 bit barrier has been the only significant upheaval in
> the progress of my server since sarge, and that reinstallation was like
> for like and therefore quite simple.
>
> If I have to reinstall the server with systemd from the beginning,
> because the upgrade is too difficult, then restoring its current
> functionality is likely to be significantly harder than the 32/64 bit
> change was. I will be migrating configurations between different Debian
> versions manually, at the same time as dealing with any systemd issues.
> I hope very much to avoid the need for that.
>

It really is hard to say. The upgrade can be painless, but there are
some services that have changed startup behaviour under systemd, and
they can get into some painful issues when reconfiguring. Mostly because
systemd handles dependencies differently from SysV init, and especially
because it does not blithely ignore failed dependencies.

You really are going to have to bite the bullet and build a test server.

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
    --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

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Re: Debian *not very good

Rob van der Putten
In reply to this post by Debian-85
Hi there


On 25/11/16 22:26, Latincom wrote:

> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> Thanks.

You can do both an upgrade and an install from scratch without systemd;
http://without-systemd.org/
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_the_Netinst_CD
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
http://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/How_to_stay_with_sysvinit_in_Debian_Jessie.html
I had to make some other changes to get things to work though. Reading
the release notes and keeping a close eye on the install process helps.

I run XFCE on my desktop. I had to add myself to sudo to make things
work properly.


Regards,
Rob



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Re: Debian *not very good

Rob van der Putten
Hi there


On 26/11/16 18:38, Rob van der Putten wrote:

<Cut>

> I run XFCE on my desktop. I had to add myself to sudo to make things
> work properly.

And admin.
admin is needed to get xconsole syslog to work.
sudo to keep xdm logout from complaining. I use lightdm now though.
I edited the cups config manually. The web interface breaks stuff.


Regards,
Rob



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