Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
117 messages Options
1234 ... 6
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Stefan Monnier
I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
when I'm back online.  ]

IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?


        Stefan


PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
application that's Free Software.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Ben Finney-5
Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]> writes:

> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> when I'm back online.  ]

While still new, I see that Matrix <URL:https://matrix.org/> is a
decentralised communication platform which does what you describe and
more.

> PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
> application that's Free Software.

The Vector client <URL:http://vector.im/> is a good-looking Matrix
client for web and mobile OSen.

Neither of them are packaged in Debian yet; please help if you can!
<URL:https://bugs.debian.org/830601>

--
 \     “For myself, I am an optimist — it does not seem to be much use |
  `\              being anything else.” —Winston Churchill, 1954-11-09 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Greg Wooledge
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 10:49:59PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> when I'm back online.  ]

I believe that's called "electronic mail" or "email".

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Darac Marjal-2
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 10:49:59PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
>...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
>connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
>when I'm back online.  ]
>
>IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
>it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
>clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?

I believe this is the "Message Carbons" feature (XEP-0280). This sends
messages to all capable instances of a user. When combined with XEP-0160
(Best Practices for Handling Offline Messages), all clients SHOULD be
able to achieve a consistent view of a conversation, regardless of which
client said what.

In terms of what supports this, I use Prosody (debian package: prosody)
as my XMPP server, Gajim (debian package: gajim) as my desktop client
(available on Debian and Windows) and Conversations (Market ID:
eu.siacs.conversations) as my android client.

>
>
>        Stefan
>
>
>PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
>application that's Free Software.
>

--
For more information, please reread.

signature.asc (895 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Stefan Monnier
In reply to this post by Greg Wooledge
>> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
>> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
>> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
>> when I'm back online.  ]
> I believe that's called "electronic mail" or "email".

There's that, and there are SMS messages as well, indeed.
But email is a lot more heavyweight and drowned in spam (e.g. most
people don't get notified right away when they receive an email
message), and SMS is basically limited to cell-phone only (you can find
services that let you send SMS messages from something like a SIP
account, but I haven't found any corresponding service for the
reception of SMS messages, except some that just drop the SMS message
if the SIP delivery cannot be performed because you're not connected).


        Stefan

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Henning Follmann
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 10:47:35AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> >> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> >> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> >> when I'm back online.  ]
> > I believe that's called "electronic mail" or "email".
>
> There's that, and there are SMS messages as well, indeed.
> But email is a lot more heavyweight and drowned in spam (e.g. most
> people don't get notified right away when they receive an email

I consider this an absolute pro not a con.
All os vendors seem that ADD is the way to go. Interrupting you with
benign nonsense every 10 seconds. No wonder that the average attention span
is ~ 2 seconds.

The only advantage of most messaging protocols is presence awareness.
In every other aspect e-mail is superior.

> message), and SMS is basically limited to cell-phone only (you can find
> services that let you send SMS messages from something like a SIP
> account, but I haven't found any corresponding service for the
> reception of SMS messages, except some that just drop the SMS message
> if the SIP delivery cannot be performed because you're not connected).
>
>
>         Stefan
>


-H

--
Henning Follmann           | [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

rhkramer
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 10:47:35 AM Stefan Monnier wrote:

> >> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> >> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> >> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> >> when I'm back online.  ]
> >
> > I believe that's called "electronic mail" or "email".
>
> There's that, and there are SMS messages as well, indeed.
> But email is a lot more heavyweight and drowned in spam (e.g. most
> people don't get notified right away when they receive an email
> message), and SMS is basically limited to cell-phone only (you can find
> services that let you send SMS messages from something like a SIP
> account, but I haven't found any corresponding service for the
> reception of SMS messages, except some that just drop the SMS message
> if the SIP delivery cannot be performed because you're not connected).

Google Voice can send and receive text messages (to and from cell phones or
other google voice users)--iiuc, those are SMS messages.  Currently I don't
have anything set up to notify me, but I asume (I know) that can be done
within a web browser.  


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Ben Finney-5
[hidden email] writes:

> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 10:47:35 AM Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > >> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> > >> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> > >> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> > >> when I'm back online.  ]
> > >
> > > I believe that's called "electronic mail" or "email".
> >
> > There's that, and there are SMS messages as well, indeed.

SMS probably does not count as a decentralised system in the sense the
original poster is seeking.

> Google Voice

Google's services are highly centralised to a single vendor.

--
 \       “Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in |
  `\     behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.” —Ambrose |
_o__)                           Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_, 1906 |
Ben Finney

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Amir H. Firouzian
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
I think you looking for TOX!
Visit TOX Project website:

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
when I'm back online.  ]

IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?


        Stefan


PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
application that's Free Software.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

rhkramer
In reply to this post by Ben Finney-5
On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:22:10 PM Ben Finney wrote:
> [hidden email] writes:
> SMS probably does not count as a decentralised system in the sense the
> original poster is seeking.
>
> > Google Voice
>
> Google's services are highly centralised to a single vendor.

I am not sure what you mean in this context--I can send and receive text
messages (and phone calls) to / from any other SMS / telephone service.  (And,
using Google Mail, the same for emails.)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Ralph Katz
In reply to this post by Stefan Monnier
On 08/12/2016 10:49 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> when I'm back online.  ]
>
> IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
> it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
> clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?
>
>
>         Stefan
>
>
> PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
> application that's Free Software.
Has anyone mentioned pidgin which supports many protocols including
sending SMS texts via AOL?  I use it for AOL IM with OTR Off-the-Record
Messaging plugin.  I also like sending SMS texts from the keyboard as well.

apt-cache show pidgin  pidgin-otr

Regards,
Ralph




signature.asc (546 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Darac Marjal-2
On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 10:17:26AM -0400, Ralph Katz wrote:

>On 08/12/2016 10:49 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
>> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
>> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
>> when I'm back online.  ]
>>
>> IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
>> it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
>> clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?
>>
>>
>>         Stefan
>>
>>
>> PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
>> application that's Free Software.
>
>Has anyone mentioned pidgin which supports many protocols including
>sending SMS texts via AOL?  I use it for AOL IM with OTR Off-the-Record
>Messaging plugin.  I also like sending SMS texts from the keyboard as well.
How is sending by AOL decentralised?

For the record, XMPP is a decentralised/federated system in the same way
as email. If I have an account [hidden email] and I send a message
to [hidden email], then that message can pass from my client machine,
to my XMPP server (xmpp.mongague.org) to the recipient's server
(megahost.verona.gov) and thence to the recipient's client. There is no
single, central authority who knows all of the clients. There is no
single point of failure. There is also the freedom for people to run
their own servers (as juliet does) or to use the servers of some other
organisation (i.e. "Cloud", as romeo does).

Can I create an AOL server on my own machine?

>
>apt-cache show pidgin  pidgin-otr
>
>Regards,
>Ralph
>
>
>




--
For more information, please reread.

signature.asc (895 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Ralph Katz
On 08/17/2016 10:41 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> How is sending by AOL decentralised?

Hi Darac --  I suggested looking at pidgin  and pidgin-otr to meet the
stated needs.  The fact that my use of AOL IM via pidgin was not such an
example was not intended to mislead anyone.  You are correct that AOL IM
is centralized.  Note that pidgin allows Direct IM to AOL clients, however.

Regards,
Ralph



signature.asc (546 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Miles Fidelman-3
Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]> wrote

> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> when I'm back online.  ]
>
> IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
> it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
> clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?

Well, XMPP and SIP aren't really decentralized - what with requiring
servers and all.

And reliable, might be an issue - few messaging systems can promise
reliable delivery, particularly when threads involve multiple senders
and recipients, and the more so if there's no central server involved.

Having said that, if you want something truly decentralized you might
look at:
- gnutella chat
- freenet chat
- WASTE
- the BitTorrent folks were working on some kind of chat
-

And there's a good list of protocols at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_protocols


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Brian
In reply to this post by Amir H. Firouzian
On Wed 17 Aug 2016 at 10:52:00 +0430, Amir H. Firouzian wrote:

> I think you looking for TOX!
> Visit TOX Project website:
> https://tox.chat

I'd not heard of this (why should I?). Is it regarded as a Skype
competitor (we could do with a free one)? Is it going anywhere?
And how does it perform technically?

(Bottom posting is preferred on -user if you reply).

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Dan Ritter-4
In reply to this post by Miles Fidelman-3
On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 01:32:47PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]> wrote
>
> > I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
> > ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
> > connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
> > when I'm back online.  ]
> >
> > IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
> > it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
> > clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?
>
> Well, XMPP and SIP aren't really decentralized - what with requiring servers
> and all.

You mean like email?

Like email, XMPP and SIP are federated systems where anyone can
run a server, or get an account on someone else's server. Once
you have access through that account, you should be able to send
to and receive from any other user.

XMPP and SIP use the same sort of [hidden email] system that email
does,  so finding an appropriate server to accept the message should be no
more difficult than finding an email server to accept mail for
mfidelman.


> Having said that, if you want something truly decentralized you might look
> at:
> - gnutella chat

It is decentralized, and as a result cannot implement reliable
delivery to offline users.

> - freenet chat

One of the developers wrote "chatting over FreeNet is insane
because of the lag, but we're going to do it anyway"
 
> - WASTE

No Linux clients.

> - the BitTorrent folks were working on some kind of chat

"Bleep". Not open-source. They say it's distributed, and they
say that it's 100% encrypted, and they say it's distributed...
They also say they need to make money on it, and they aren't
showing ads, so where is that money coming from?


-dsr-

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Brian
On Wed 17 Aug 2016 at 14:27:16 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 01:32:47PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > Having said that, if you want something truly decentralized you might look
> > at:
> > - gnutella chat
>
> It is decentralized, and as a result cannot implement reliable
> delivery to offline users.

The OP has

  I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system ...

Perhaps he should say what he means by "decentralized" and we can stop
hunting about in the dark. Any method which needs offline delivery could
be seen as centralised because the message has to go somewhere other
than the intended destination.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

David Wright-3
On Wed 17 Aug 2016 at 19:57:25 (+0100), Brian wrote:

> On Wed 17 Aug 2016 at 14:27:16 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 01:32:47PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > Having said that, if you want something truly decentralized you might look
> > > at:
> > > - gnutella chat
> >
> > It is decentralized, and as a result cannot implement reliable
> > delivery to offline users.
>
> The OP has
>
>   I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system ...
>
> Perhaps he should say what he means by "decentralized" and we can stop
> hunting about in the dark. Any method which needs offline delivery could
> be seen as centralised because the message has to go somewhere other
> than the intended destination.

I agree. The OP contains a contradiction anyway:

"instant message ... even if I'm not connected."

Decades ago, we solved this just by using notify (instant) and send (email)
together (on Phoenix/IBM 370 et seq.). I don't recall whether this was
discouraged. Using WTO (Write To Operator) for example would cause
immediate cancellation of a job.

Cheers,
David.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Stefan Monnier
In reply to this post by Amir H. Firouzian
> I think you looking for TOX!
> Visit TOX Project website:
> https://tox.chat

Thanks.  That does look promising (although I don't see any mention of
reliable delivery),


        Stefan


> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:

>> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
>> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
>> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
>> when I'm back online.  ]
>>
>> IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
>> it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
>> clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?
>>
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
>> application that's Free Software.
>>
>>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Decentralized reliable instant messaging?

Amir H. Firouzian
You can't have all the best together.
This mention in previous E-Mails as well. E.g: <20160817192400.GB9964@alum>

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think you looking for TOX!
> Visit TOX Project website:
> https://tox.chat

Thanks.  That does look promising (although I don't see any mention of
reliable delivery),


        Stefan


> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:

>> I'm looking for a decentralized instant message system (e.g. XMPP, SIP,
>> ...) where I can be sure that I receive all messages, even if I'm not
>> connected when the message is sent [ Obviously, I'll only receive them
>> when I'm back online.  ]
>>
>> IIUC there is some XMPP features that allow such reliable delivery, but
>> it seems that it's not widely supported by clients.  What Debian
>> clients, using which protocols, can provide reliable instant messaging?
>>
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> PS: Bonus points if that feature is also available on an Android
>> application that's Free Software.
>>
>>

1234 ... 6