Documentation of alioth?

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Documentation of alioth?

Michael Bramer
Hello

Maybe I miss something, but have we some Documentation about
alioth/gforge?

And is there some alioth mailinglist (or is debian-devel ok for more
alioth questions?)

Gruss
Grisu
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Michael Bramer  -- http://www.feuerwehr.kreuzau.de/wiki/
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"it was hard to write, so it should be hard to read"

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Marc Haber-3
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:01:59 +0200, Michael Bramer <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>Maybe I miss something, but have we some Documentation about
>alioth/gforge?
>
>And is there some alioth mailinglist (or is debian-devel ok for more
>alioth questions?)

Alioth is mainly unmaintained, don't rely on it.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog-3
Le dimanche 10 juillet 2005 à 23:34 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit :
> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:01:59 +0200, Michael Bramer <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >Maybe I miss something, but have we some Documentation about
> >alioth/gforge?

It depends on what you expect...

> >And is there some alioth mailinglist (or is debian-devel ok for more
> >alioth questions?)

There's no mailing list. But [hidden email] is the email to
contact the actual administrator. You can discuss wherever you want as
long as you sent a synthesis to the admins (or at least CC them).

> Alioth is mainly unmaintained, don't rely on it.

That's grossly unfair. Furthermore I have yet to see an offer to help or
a patch sent to the current administrators.

Requets for new projects are treated regularly by the 3 admins. Problems
requiring root rights can only be handled by Wichert Akkerman and are
thus treated less frequently. Sometimes you need to prod him directly
(on IRC).

Regards,
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Marc Haber-3
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:16:31 +0200, Raphaël Hertzog
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>Le dimanche 10 juillet 2005 à 23:34 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit :
>> Alioth is mainly unmaintained, don't rely on it.
>
>That's grossly unfair. Furthermore I have yet to see an offer to help or
>a patch sent to the current administrators.

Mailing list moderation is broken for like three months. There is an -
unreplied - tracker ticket (#301440) open, people have been prodded on
IRC multiple times, and all I got - after two weeks of trying to get
this issue at least acknowledged - was a "yeah, there is an
incompatbility between gforge and mailman".

Same goes for tracker ticket #301374 - open since three months, not a
bit of reply.

>Requets for new projects are treated regularly by the 3 admins. Problems
>requiring root rights can only be handled by Wichert Akkerman and are
>thus treated less frequently. Sometimes you need to prod him directly
>(on IRC).

I do not care too much about alioth's internal problems. Fact is that
important parts of alioth infrastructure are broken since multiple
months, users are ignored, and nobody seems to care. This makes _my_
work as a DD significantly harder since I have to look after my
mailing lists manually since a quarter of a year.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog
Le lundi 11 juillet 2005 à 09:17 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit :
> Mailing list moderation is broken for like three months. There is an -
> unreplied - tracker ticket (#301440) open, people have been prodded on
> IRC multiple times, and all I got - after two weeks of trying to get
> this issue at least acknowledged - was a "yeah, there is an
> incompatbility between gforge and mailman".
>
> Same goes for tracker ticket #301374 - open since three months, not a
> bit of reply.

I never said we were perfect. But alioth is not "unmaintained".
Gforge has its bugs, you're more than welcomon to work on it...

> I do not care too much about alioth's internal problems. Fact is that
> important parts of alioth infrastructure are broken since multiple
> months, users are ignored, and nobody seems to care. This makes _my_
> work as a DD significantly harder since I have to look after my
> mailing lists manually since a quarter of a year.

Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
patch for us to apply ?

Regards,
--
Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://www.ouaza.com
Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Earn money with free software: http://www.geniustrader.org


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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Eduard Bloch
#include <hallo.h>
* Raphael Hertzog [Mon, Jul 11 2005, 02:13:17PM]:

> > I do not care too much about alioth's internal problems. Fact is that
> > important parts of alioth infrastructure are broken since multiple
> > months, users are ignored, and nobody seems to care. This makes _my_
> > work as a DD significantly harder since I have to look after my
> > mailing lists manually since a quarter of a year.
>
> Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
> patch for us to apply ?

It's not my beer, but... did you ask for one? Did you ask for help at
all (since there seem to be real problems, my last request for an
obvious feature has been some months in the queue before beeing
processed).

Regards,
Eduard.

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Marc Haber-3
In reply to this post by Raphael Hertzog
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:13:17 +0200, Raphael Hertzog
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>Le lundi 11 juillet 2005 à 09:17 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit :
>> Same goes for tracker ticket #301374 - open since three months, not a
>> bit of reply.
>
>I never said we were perfect. But alioth is not "unmaintained".

A project which leaves bug reports completely uncommented (and
unfixed) for three months is unmaintained.

>Gforge has its bugs, you're more than welcomon to work on it...

Why should I spend days building a reference system for bug
reproduction and bug removal when the actual buggy system is readily
available to its admins?

>> I do not care too much about alioth's internal problems. Fact is that
>> important parts of alioth infrastructure are broken since multiple
>> months, users are ignored, and nobody seems to care. This makes _my_
>> work as a DD significantly harder since I have to look after my
>> mailing lists manually since a quarter of a year.
>
>Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
>patch for us to apply ?

Alioth is not some kind of software which can be debugged this way.

Greetings
Marc

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-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog
In reply to this post by Eduard Bloch
Le lundi 11 juillet 2005 à 17:57 +0200, Eduard Bloch a écrit :
> > Did you try to check where the problem is ? Did you try to prepare a
> > patch for us to apply ?
>
> It's not my beer, but... did you ask for one? Did you ask for help at
> all (since there seem to be real problems, my last request for an
> obvious feature has been some months in the queue before beeing
> processed).

No we didn't. But that's common when you are group of volunteers sharing
the work. The fact that I didn't had much time/interest is mostly
unrelated to the fact that the other admins were in the same
situation... so it takes time to just realize that there's a problem.

Alioth's problems are not dramatic, but the list of tickets is growing
and help would certainly be appreciated to sort them out.

https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?atid=200001&group_id=1&func=browse

A first step in that direction would be to have a public SVN with
alioth's gforge ... I'll try to pester Lo-Lan-Do (Roland Mas) in doing
that. :-)

Cheers,
--
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Florian Weimer
In reply to this post by Marc Haber-3
* Marc Haber:

>>I never said we were perfect. But alioth is not "unmaintained".
>
> A project which leaves bug reports completely uncommented (and
> unfixed) for three months is unmaintained.

Not necessarily.  It's very poor communication, and a huge problem.
But without inside knowledge, you can't really know what's going on.

> Why should I spend days building a reference system for bug
> reproduction and bug removal when the actual buggy system is readily
> available to its admins?

Or, put in a more constructive way, what is the correct way to proceed
if you want to debug such bugs yourself, on Debian's machines?
Suppose I had an afternoon to spare on such a bug, how could I help
the alioth maintainers?


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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog
Le mardi 12 juillet 2005 à 16:32 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> > Why should I spend days building a reference system for bug
> > reproduction and bug removal when the actual buggy system is readily
> > available to its admins?
>
> Or, put in a more constructive way, what is the correct way to proceed
> if you want to debug such bugs yourself, on Debian's machines?
> Suppose I had an afternoon to spare on such a bug, how could I help
> the alioth maintainers?

I tried to put all the answers to your questions in that page:
http://wiki.debian.net/?Alioth

Now haydn is running sarge so it's relatively easy to duplicate alioth
on a local (virtual) machine (before the mixture of woody/sarge was
suboptimal). You have the sources and the packages running on alioth...
you can provide patches that apply to Alioth's version of gforge.

Apart from some logs, all the configuration files are readable on alioth
so you can investigate problems like everyone. (BTW, I'm mostly in the
same situation than everyone, I don't have root rights to read the
logs).

Cheers,
--
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Florian Weimer
* Raphael Hertzog:

> Now haydn is running sarge so it's relatively easy to duplicate alioth
> on a local (virtual) machine (before the mixture of woody/sarge was
> suboptimal). You have the sources and the packages running on alioth...
> you can provide patches that apply to Alioth's version of gforge.

This is ridiculous.  With this attitude, you will never receive any
substantial help with alioth system administration.  It's unlikely
that anyone who

For example, issue #301374 is caused by explicit configuration which
disables POST requests, in /srv/svn.debian.org/etc/apache.conf:

        <Location />
                <LimitExcept GET HEAD OPTIONS PROPFIND>
                        deny from all
                </LimitExcept>
        </Location>

It's unlikely that someone rebuilding alioth from scratch would make
the same mistake (and you can't really reuse all these configuration
files).


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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog-3
Le jeudi 28 juillet 2005 à 09:31 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> This is ridiculous.  With this attitude, you will never receive any
> substantial help with alioth system administration.  It's unlikely
> that anyone who

Sorry, I can't offer something better... but as you see, you can help
alioth admins without having a local gforge since you diagnosed a
problem.

> For example, issue #301374 is caused by explicit configuration which
> disables POST requests, in /srv/svn.debian.org/etc/apache.conf:
>
>         <Location />
>                 <LimitExcept GET HEAD OPTIONS PROPFIND>
>                         deny from all
>                 </LimitExcept>
>         </Location>

Thank you for the explanation of the problem, but why didn't you add
this useful feedback to the request tracker ? At least that way all
alioth admins would know precisely the problem and could act
accordingly.

I added that, and asked wiggy to fix that (he has the right to edit the
good file). Hopefully it will be fixed soon...

Cheers,
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Florian Weimer
* Raphaël Hertzog:

> Sorry, I can't offer something better... but as you see, you can help
> alioth admins without having a local gforge since you diagnosed a
> problem.

What's the benefit of diagnosing the problem if it isn't fixed?

> At least that way all alioth admins would know precisely the problem
> and could act accordingly.

Those with sufficient privilege obviously do not read the tracker.

Look, it took me maybe ten minutes to diagnose the problem.  I'm not
familiar with the system configuration, so I spent most of the time
looking for the correct configuration file.

If anyone with the necessary privileges were actually interested in
maintaining alioth, they would follow the tracker and fix such
low-hanging fruits immediately.

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog-3
Le dimanche 07 août 2005 à 11:39 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
> What's the benefit of diagnosing the problem if it isn't fixed?

It lets people with the required privileges fix the problem without
having to investigate it first.

> Those with sufficient privilege obviously do not read the tracker.

Sure we read it... and no we're not going through it each day. We
receive any "update" and if we see that the problem can be fixed in less
than 2 minutes we usually do it.

Of course, sometime we forget. Of course, sometime we're busy.

> Look, it took me maybe ten minutes to diagnose the problem.  I'm not
> familiar with the system configuration, so I spent most of the time
> looking for the correct configuration file.

I'm not familiar with everything either... I have some admin privileges
but I've not setup Gforge since Roland did that part. I'm not a Gforge
package maintainer either... so my gforge knowledge is limited.

Concerning svn.debian.org and arch.debian.org, wiggy installed this
service first... so again I don't know everything.

> If anyone with the necessary privileges were actually interested in
> maintaining alioth, they would follow the tracker and fix such
> low-hanging fruits immediately.

If life was that easy... please stop whining and see the reality. Many
packages have easy to fix bugs that languishes ... it's the same with
alioth. We appreciate any help... bitching about us doesn't help but
nagging us about simple issues like « please take 2 minutes to fix this:
it's easy look you just have to "..." » is certainly appreciated.

Cheers,
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Florian Weimer
* Raphaël Hertzog:

> Le dimanche 07 août 2005 à 11:39 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :
>> What's the benefit of diagnosing the problem if it isn't fixed?
>
> It lets people with the required privileges fix the problem without
> having to investigate it first.

For the record: The bug hasn't been fixed yet.

> If life was that easy... please stop whining and see the reality.

The reality is that alioth is unmaintained.

> Many packages have easy to fix bugs that languishes ...

Packages are NMUed if their breakage causes too much suffering.

> it's the same with alioth.

No, it's not.  You are quite immune to pressure from your peer group
(or maybe you think your fellow developers aren't peers, I don't
know).

> We appreciate any help...

Oh, to cut the discussion short: Where can I apply for root access on
costa, so that I can fix the bug we are talking about?

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog-3
[ I keep the discussion because I want Wichert to read it ]

Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 11:26 +0200, Florian Weimer a écrit :

> > It lets people with the required privileges fix the problem without
> > having to investigate it first.
>
> For the record: The bug hasn't been fixed yet.
>
> > If life was that easy... please stop whining and see the reality.
>
> The reality is that alioth is unmaintained.
>
> > Many packages have easy to fix bugs that languishes ...
>
> Packages are NMUed if their breakage causes too much suffering.
>
> > it's the same with alioth.
>
> No, it's not.  You are quite immune to pressure from your peer group
> (or maybe you think your fellow developers aren't peers, I don't
> know).
>
> > We appreciate any help...
>
> Oh, to cut the discussion short: Where can I apply for root access on
> costa, so that I can fix the bug we are talking about?

Wichert is root and edits /etc/sudoers on his liking. Even if I
requested root rights several times, I only got rights to call the
script to create SVN repo.

I tried to do as much as possible on this issue, I've filed the required
information in the support tracker, I reassigned the request to Wichert,
increased the priorities and asked him to check his top-level support
requests. I pestered him on IRC twice or thrice without results. Sorry,
I can't do more.

I know Wichert is a bit disappointed because despite all the
money/sponsors we have, we're waiting for more than a year for a new
machine. The main problems appears to be DSA who must give an approval
that they're willing to admin the machine before we can decide to buy
it/accept the donation... and since DSA are always overwhelmed with more
urgent issues (new ftpmaster and so on), we're getting nowhere.

Of course, that's not a reason to not act on the problems you indicated,
but hey I want to give people a broader overview of what's happening.

Cheers,
--
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Joey Schulze
Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
> I know Wichert is a bit disappointed because despite all the
> money/sponsors we have, we're waiting for more than a year for a new
> machine. The main problems appears to be DSA who must give an approval
> that they're willing to admin the machine before we can decide to buy
> it/accept the donation... and since DSA are always overwhelmed with more
> urgent issues (new ftpmaster and so on), we're getting nowhere.

Hi Raphaël,

I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that you're wrong in your assertion.

All Alioth machines (currently haydn and costa) are not in the domain
of DSA but of Wichert alone.  The only active part DSA is taking in
this is the export of Debian developer accounts to haydn.

Also DSA does not have anything to do with ftpmaster work.  The
ftpmaster people organise themselves on their own.

Regards,

        Joey

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Raphael Hertzog-3
Le vendredi 26 août 2005 à 12:04 +0200, Martin Schulze a écrit :
> Hi Raphaël,

Hi Joey,

> I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that you're wrong in your assertion.

I've been corrected by Wiggy on IRC too. Although what I said before was
not invented, I've read part of it in #debian-devel in the mouth of
Overfiend (Branden)...

It looks like the actual problem is more lack of donors and the fact
that Branden is not willing to spend money on it.

Maybe a brief status of the "hardware donations" people would be nice ?

> Also DSA does not have anything to do with ftpmaster work.  The
> ftpmaster people organise themselves on their own.

Right, it's so easy to confuse with common people on the various
teams ... :-)

Cheers,

PS: Good news, I actually have root rights now, I'll take some time this
WE for treating the easy issues in the support request.
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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Bastian Blank
On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 12:23:14PM +0200, Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
> Maybe a brief status of the "hardware donations" people would be nice ?

IBM loaned 2 OpenPower machines for Debian but noone wants them. Okay,
they have one problem, only 4x 73 GB disk space.

Bastian

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Re: Documentation of alioth?

Florian Weimer
* Bastian Blank:

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 12:23:14PM +0200, Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
>> Maybe a brief status of the "hardware donations" people would be nice ?
>
> IBM loaned 2 OpenPower machines for Debian but noone wants them. Okay,
> they have one problem, only 4x 73 GB disk space.

Some developers have a few EUR on their bank accounts and could buy
hardware for the project, too.

But I fail to see how more machines make system administration easier.
I'd expect that additional machines put only more load on our various
administration teams, not less.

12