Future of Accessibility in Debian

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
33 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Future of Accessibility in Debian

thomasw
Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

john doe-6
On 11/8/2019 1:21 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi,
> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.
>

As an alternative to the Mac, Windows 10 with NVDA works pretty well.

--
John Doe

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Devin Prater
In reply to this post by thomasw
I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr

It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.

Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.

I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.

On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Alex ARNAUD-4
In reply to this post by thomasw
Hello Thomas,

To be fully clear: There is no risk to see something changes on your experience until approximately 4 years. The issue we've found are in GTK4 and we'll work with GTK4 developers to ensure the Linux accessibility will continue to be as good as today.

Best regards,
Alex.

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, [hidden email] a écrit :
Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

chrys
In reply to this post by Devin Prater
Howdy,
> Optionally, if you use the command line, check out  
> https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
FYI: Fenrir should run on OSX as well using the PTY Terminal emulation  
backend :).

cheers chrys
Zitat von Devin Prater <[hidden email]>:

> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run  
> free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use  
> the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>
> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done  
> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,  
> Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking,  
> autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation,  
> all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word  
> processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>
> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion  
> point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the  
> arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are  
> usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases  
> are often much better than the public beta versions.
>
> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to  
> see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not  
> held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all  
> we have left in Linux is the command line.
>
>> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the  
>> conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into  
>> the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are  
>> knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going  
>> into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are  
>> being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some  
>> ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause  
>> problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand  
>> whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least  
>> lets me use the computer.
>> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but  
>> I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just  
>> like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think  
>> accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed  
>> infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that  
>> I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice  
>> some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously  
>> would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is  
>> approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible  
>> since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader  
>> (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
>> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however,  
>> I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can  
>> support myself.
>> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my  
>> concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not  
>> having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is  
>> happening in the different upstream packages.
>>



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Sv: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

mattias jonsson
In reply to this post by Devin Prater

Devin we know you are a mac fanboy!

But stop glorify mac

Mac are not for everyone

Mac are not perfect

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: [hidden email]
Skickat: den 8 november 2019 09:21
Till: [hidden email]
Kopia: [hidden email]
Ämne: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

 

I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr

 

It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.

 

Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.

 

I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.



On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

 

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.

 

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Sv: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

mattias jonsson
In reply to this post by Devin Prater

And yes

Have mac eloquence? No

Or yes there is a illegal port

Or i Think it is illegal

On Linux we have a legal port

So stop glorify mac!

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 

Från: [hidden email]
Skickat: den 8 november 2019 09:21
Till: [hidden email]
Kopia: [hidden email]
Ämne: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

 

I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr

 

It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.

 

Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.

 

I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.



On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

 

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.

 

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Devin Prater
In reply to this post by mattias jonsson
Matias, I am not glorifying the Mac. I was pointing out the things that are different, or advantageous to us blind folk. In no way did I say that the Mac is for everyone, and indeed it isn’t. Also, I am no Fanboy of any platform, I use what I find to be the best for me. If that is Apple products at this time, then that’s what I’ll use. If Linux becomes the most accessible platform in my view, I will no hesitate to use it. So then, clear the red from your vision. To not feel attacked just because your preferred platform may not have all the nice features of a Mac, or for whatever reason you’ve decided to label me a Mac Fanboy and such. Really, if you do not get paid by an organization or company, whether it be the Free Software Foundation, Microsoft, Apple, or Google, do not fight for them, they don’t care about your livelihood. I talked about the Mac because I find it useful and good for my work. People who play audio games, or whose workplace is ensconced within Microsoft products, who who are in the healthcare business which seems to use Windows heavily, or who work on the JAWS screen reader, for example, would want Windows. But for just about anything else, a Mac is a good computer, unless you really don’t have the money, and have no good way to save up for it, or if free software that one can read, understand, and make better, then Linux will be the only choice.

Now, F123 looks very promising, so one may check that out, they seem to be doing very good work with Linux, and indeed, Linux accessibility, by making inexpensive computers which, I am sure, don’t use many resources, so 4 gigs of Ram is more than enough to do plenty with. Now, it is running Raspberry Pi, so you won’t get Voxin, but it comes with Mimic by default, and eSpeak, so speech quality isn’t so bad of an issue. I could see that really taking off, even for people in the states who are tired of Windows changing every few months, and bugs and screen reader upgrades (JAWS at least), but don’t want a Mac either, or who can’t afford one. But it runs Arch, so I’d keep discussion of it on the F123 list, but it is an option, if only because one could stick with GTK3 on it.

On Nov 8, 2019, at 2:35 AM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

Devin we know you are a mac fanboy!
But stop glorify mac
Mac are not for everyone
Mac are not perfect
 
Skickades från E-post för Windows 10
 
Från: [hidden email]
Skickat: den 8 november 2019 09:21
Till: [hidden email]
Kopia: [hidden email]
Ämne: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian
 
I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
 
It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
 
Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.
 
I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.


On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
 

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL-2
In reply to this post by thomasw

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, [hidden email] a écrit :
> Hi,

 > I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what
upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like
things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I
honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.

Sure. But the current implementation is hard to maintain by the
technical guys. Hence their request for change.

Sorry for the comparison but they do as Italy with immigration: they
handle an European problem, but others do not move as they continuously
support it. One day, they say "stop", others say "oh no", and a
discussion starts. GTK devs try this, they create a kind of "shock" to
make the community move. But with dialog, we will be able to work
together, otherwise there are other possible toolkits with the same
result if work is done.
> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.

Guys, in free software and in Debian, we live in do-cracy. It means that
when you are worry with a situation, get involved. How? Replying to bugs
showing you exist and how it is a problem in your usage, eventually
testing (packages from Sid, nightly releases, etc). If you use free
software as simple consumers and say "bye it will not work", it is a
ethical failure in the free software project. This philosophy is only
possible if we get involved, at least writing "oh we exist, we do this,
we need this!"

3 examples:
1. Thunderbird: see release 60 first edition: a lot of accessibility
bugs. Then, 68 release: most are fixed. Why? Alex and I test nightly,
report bugs, discuss with devs from ausage point of view (and not
technical). They like our contrib, hence we win some debates for a
better user experience.
2. Firefox: they enable a Reader View notification at each new page in
Nightly. If we do not test, it will go to next release and the user
experience will be horrible. We get involved in the bug, fixed, the
notification is just an option
3. GTK: if you read the bug logs you mention, you see that they think no
one use Orca. Even if they are told the opposite, they do not realize
how and what usages. At the beginning, it was "no". Now, it is "let's do
a hackfest, let's meet". Without reaction from Hypra guys and Samuel,
things would have gone and been broken.

So instead of thinking of leaving free software for Apple, where, as it
is a unique stack, nothing says they wil stay accessible in 10 years if
they decide it is no longer a business opportunity (see Microsoft from
2004 until 2016), show we exist!

Regards


> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL-3
In reply to this post by thomasw


Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, [hidden email] a écrit :
> Hi,

> I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what
upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like
things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I
honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.

Sure. But the current implementation is hard to maintain by the
technical guys. Hence their request for change.

Sorry for the comparison but they do as Italy with immigration: they
handle an European problem, but others do not move as they continuously
support it. One day, they say "stop", others say "oh no", and a
discussion starts. GTK devs try this, they create a kind of "shock" to
make the community move. But with dialog, we will be able to work
together, otherwise there are other possible toolkits with the same
result if work is done.
> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.

Guys, in free software and in Debian, we live in do-cracy. It means that
when you are worry with a situation, get involved. How? Replying to bugs
showing you exist and how it is a problem in your usage, eventually
testing (packages from Sid, nightly releases, etc). If you use free
software as simple consumers and say "bye it will not work", it is a
ethical failure in the free software project. This philosophy is only
possible if we get involved, at least writing "oh we exist, we do this,
we need this!"

3 examples:
1. Thunderbird: see release 60 first edition: a lot of accessibility
bugs. Then, 68 release: most are fixed. Why? Alex and I test nightly,
report bugs, discuss with devs from ausage point of view (and not
technical). They like our contrib, hence we win some debates for a
better user experience.
2. Firefox: they enable a Reader View notification at each new page in
Nightly. If we do not test, it will go to next release and the user
experience will be horrible. We get involved in the bug, fixed, the
notification is just an option
3. GTK: if you read the bug logs you mention, you see that they think no
one use Orca. Even if they are told the opposite, they do not realize
how and what usages. At the beginning, it was "no". Now, it is "let's do
a hackfest, let's meet". Without reaction from Hypra guys and Samuel,
things would have gone and been broken.

So instead of thinking of leaving free software for Apple, where, as it
is a unique stack, nothing says they wil stay accessible in 10 years if
they decide it is no longer a business opportunity (see Microsoft from
2004 until 2016), show we exist!

Regards


> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Didier Spaier
In reply to this post by Alex ARNAUD-4
Hi,

+1 to what Alex said, and QT accessibilty is progressing too.

And indeed console applications will continue to work.

As the saying goes: "Don't destroy your now worrying about tomorrow"

Best,

Didier

Le 08/11/2019 à 09:29, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :

> Hello Thomas,
>
> To be fully clear: There is no risk to see something changes on your experience until approximately 4 years. The issue we've found are in GTK4 and we'll work with GTK4 developers to ensure the Linux accessibility will continue to be as good as today.
>
> Best regards,
> Alex.
>
> Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, [hidden email] a écrit :
>> Hi,
>> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
>> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
>> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
>> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.
>>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

thomasw
In reply to this post by Devin Prater


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
>
> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>
> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.
>
> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.

This is all helpful information. I did some research after I wrote this and found that these are not volunteers at all. All pushing against our patches are individuals working for IBM to ship a commercial Linux desktop and are actually being paid by them to work on these things. I think it is honestly quite shameful to see representatives of such a prominant tech company behave in this way. If it were just ignoring patches it would be one thing, however, many of these individuals are also actually fighting against the patches and making discriminatory comments along the way. You have small groups of individuals (Hypra and Igalia) who have 0 the budgets of IBM when rounding to integers trying to improve things, yet IBM are impeding progress. Also, completely volunteer groups of individuals like Debian manage to ship an accessible desktop, yet IBM can't be bothered to do the same and have now gone a step further by attacking those who try to do so. It all just sounds really screwed up to me. These people come from places with oodles of money and tell us we need a new way of doing things yet they won't pony up the money to accomplish anything that they ask for.
>> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
>> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
>> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
>> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL-3
Hi,

Frankly I think these companies (IBM, Redhat) dont completely focus on
desktop. I dont know who they sell this to. I think their main business
is servers. So I am not so surprised, even if it is sad, they dont invest.

However I keep hope: during the next hackfest, we will discuss what is
needed to make things work, where and how. It is possible we reach an
agreement about how to fund, why not with an IBM contribution. It is not
lost. But we have not discused with these people for a long, and now GTK
guys absolutely are not aware about the society issues related to
disability. Let's teach them. That is all the job until February.

Best regards



Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 08/11/2019 à 13:15, [hidden email] a écrit :

>
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
>> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
>>
>> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>>
>> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.
>>
>> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.
>
> This is all helpful information. I did some research after I wrote this and found that these are not volunteers at all. All pushing against our patches are individuals working for IBM to ship a commercial Linux desktop and are actually being paid by them to work on these things. I think it is honestly quite shameful to see representatives of such a prominant tech company behave in this way. If it were just ignoring patches it would be one thing, however, many of these individuals are also actually fighting against the patches and making discriminatory comments along the way. You have small groups of individuals (Hypra and Igalia) who have 0 the budgets of IBM when rounding to integers trying to improve things, yet IBM are impeding progress. Also, completely volunteer groups of individuals like Debian manage to ship an accessible desktop, yet IBM can't be bothered to do the same and have now gone a step further by attacking those who try to do so. It all just sounds really screwed up to me. These people come from places with oodles of money and tell us we need a new way of doing things yet they won't pony up the money to accomplish anything that they ask for.
>>> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
>>> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
>>> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
>>> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Devin Prater
In reply to this post by thomasw
Thanks so much for this information. I did have the impression that volunteers work on this, I should have done more research. Also, thanks Jean-Philippe for the much easier ways of contributing to all this than the knee-jerk reaction of some people of “Well if you don’t like it then make it yourself and stop complaining because Linux is good the way it is,” sort of thing. I’ve already submitted issues to Github projects, mostly emulators because game accessibility is important to me, but yes, accessibility to a whole operating system is quite a bit more so, and activism of this type sometimes does work out well. At the very least, developers see this, it is an open issue that they can’t easily ignore unless they close it—and even then it is still there so one could reference it on conversations—and at most issues get fixed, or features are implemented.

On Nov 8, 2019, at 6:15 AM, [hidden email] wrote:



On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr

It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.

Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions.

I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.

This is all helpful information. I did some research after I wrote this and found that these are not volunteers at all. All pushing against our patches are individuals working for IBM to ship a commercial Linux desktop and are actually being paid by them to work on these things. I think it is honestly quite shameful to see representatives of such a prominant tech company behave in this way. If it were just ignoring patches it would be one thing, however, many of these individuals are also actually fighting against the patches and making discriminatory comments along the way. You have small groups of individuals (Hypra and Igalia) who have 0 the budgets of IBM when rounding to integers trying to improve things, yet IBM are impeding progress. Also, completely volunteer groups of individuals like Debian manage to ship an accessible desktop, yet IBM can't be bothered to do the same and have now gone a step further by attacking those who try to do so. It all just sounds really screwed up to me. These people come from places with oodles of money and tell us we need a new way of doing things yet they won't pony up the money to accomplish anything that they ask for.
On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
In reply to this post by Devin Prater
Hi Devin,

Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:

 > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run
free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use the
command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
<https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>

Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.

 > It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect,
text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable,
throughout the system, not just in > your word processor, all accessible
with VoiceOver.

Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all
right. And all the Debian catalog.





 > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow
keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually
fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often
much better than the public beta versions.

 > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see
free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a
standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left
in Linux is the command line.

What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware
of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself,
hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories,
try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one of their
community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box
accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible through updates,
free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to request for things
and getting support and training, fund the free software dev to avoid
such dark future as described on the thread. You can connect most
accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac
whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible,
warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties, hence
people going to typical computers, now there is, so free software
supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying for Apple,
whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.

Regards

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

mattias jonsson
what is hypra?

On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

> Hi Devin,
>
> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>
> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run
> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use
> the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>
> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>
> > It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,
> Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect,
> text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable,
> throughout the system, not just in > your word processor, all
> accessible with VoiceOver.
>
> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all
> right. And all the Debian catalog.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion
> point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow
> keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually
> fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often
> much better than the public beta versions.
>
> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to
> see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held
> to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we
> have left in Linux is the command line.
>
> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware
> of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself,
> hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories,
> try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one of their
> community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box
> accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible through updates,
> free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to request for things
> and getting support and training, fund the free software dev to avoid
> such dark future as described on the thread. You can connect most
> accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac
> whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible,
> warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties,
> hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free
> software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying
> for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.
>
> Regards
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Jude DaShiell-3
In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:10:53
> From: MENGUAL Jean-Philippe <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian
> Resent-Date: Fri,  8 Nov 2019 16:11:09 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: [hidden email]
>
> Hi Devin,
>
> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>
> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You?ll still be able to run
> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use the
> command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>
> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>
> > It isn?t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail,
> text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text
> replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout
> the system, not just in > your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>
> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all right. And
> all the Debian catalog.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear ?insertion
> point at (nil)? at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys,
> and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the
> year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the
> public beta versions.
>
> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I?d hate to see
> free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a
> standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in
> Linux is the command line.
>
> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware of
> this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself, hope there
> are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories, try reporting but
> Apple does not listen always (said one of their community leader). Buy Hypra
> about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will
> stay accessible through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to, in
> order to request for things and getting support and training, fund the free
> software dev to avoid such dark future as described on the thread. You can
> connect most accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac whereas you
> can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, warranty and with human
> support? So far there were few warranties, hence people going to typical
> computers, now there is, so free software supporters should pay to fund this
> effort instead of paying for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs'
> death.
>
> Regards
>
The problem with mac for most accessibility users is that our demographics
rarely include large enough bank accounts to support the Apple hardware
obsolescence cycle.  I once got by means of a donation the most expensive
computer Apple ever produced up to 2012 and that cost the original owner
$10,000.00.  The operating system could not be upgraded due to the Apple
obsolescence cycle and in these days with all of the cyber attacks that's
serious since once hackers find your system they can either exploit it and
your identity and bank account or practice on it to learn how to take down
other apple operating systems.  I got another surprise with the first mac
mini I bought too.  I bought that mac mini when Apple came out with newer
hardware for that line.  Unfortunately the sales lady failed to tell me I
would be getting the obsolete hardware and charged me full price for that
too.  No discount.  So I was able to upgrade to Leopard but couldn't
upgrade to Lion and in the hands of an Apple certified technician my
machine got struck by lightning.  >

--

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL-3
In reply to this post by mattias jonsson
A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access
point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but possible)
MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according to the
language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual settings
if the person needs negative or color filter or magnification or
whatever, etc.

All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3
pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data, mail
accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).

Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate,
Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).

Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security deposit,
199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training, unlimited and
without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely on Debian. Free
updates.

The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making disable
people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage without
technical skills (but opened for those who have them).

Regards





Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :

> what is hypra?
>
> On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:
>> Hi Devin,
>>
>> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>>
>> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run
>> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use
>> the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
>> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>>
>> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>>
>> > It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
>> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,
>> Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect,
>> text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable,
>> throughout the system, not just in > your word processor, all
>> accessible with VoiceOver.
>>
>> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all
>> right. And all the Debian catalog.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion
>> point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow
>> keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually
>> fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often
>> much better than the public beta versions.
>>
>> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to
>> see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held
>> to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we
>> have left in Linux is the command line.
>>
>> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware
>> of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself,
>> hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories,
>> try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one of their
>> community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box
>> accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible through updates,
>> free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to request for things
>> and getting support and training, fund the free software dev to avoid
>> such dark future as described on the thread. You can connect most
>> accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
>> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac
>> whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible,
>> warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties,
>> hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free
>> software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying
>> for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

mattias jonsson
website?

On 2019-11-08 17:29, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:

> A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access
> point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but possible)
> MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according to the
> language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual settings
> if the person needs negative or color filter or magnification or
> whatever, etc.
>
> All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3
> pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data,
> mail accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).
>
> Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate,
> Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).
>
> Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security
> deposit, 199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training,
> unlimited and without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely on
> Debian. Free updates.
>
> The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making
> disable people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage
> without technical skills (but opened for those who have them).
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
> Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :
>> what is hypra?
>>
>> On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:
>>> Hi Devin,
>>>
>>> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>>>
>>> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run
>>> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use
>>> the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
>>> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>>>
>>> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>>>
>>> > It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
>>> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,
>>> Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking,
>>> autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation,
>>> all configurable, throughout the system, not just in > your word
>>> processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>>>
>>> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all
>>> right. And all the Debian catalog.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion
>>> point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the
>>> arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are
>>> usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases
>>> are often much better than the public beta versions.
>>>
>>> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to
>>> see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not
>>> held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all
>>> we have left in Linux is the command line.
>>>
>>> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you
>>> aware of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn
>>> yourself, hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible
>>> accesories, try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one
>>> of their community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an
>>> out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible
>>> through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to
>>> request for things and getting support and training, fund the free
>>> software dev to avoid such dark future as described on the thread.
>>> You can connect most accessories (even Apple ones despite many
>>> complexities).
>>> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac
>>> whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible,
>>> warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties,
>>> hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free
>>> software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying
>>> for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL-3
http://hypra.fr

English release not completely up-to-date, but the most important is here.


Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

Le 08/11/2019 à 17:39, mattias a écrit :

> website?
>
> On 2019-11-08 17:29, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
>> A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access
>> point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but
>> possible) MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according
>> to the language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual
>> settings if the person needs negative or color filter or
>> magnification or whatever, etc.
>>
>> All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3
>> pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data,
>> mail accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).
>>
>> Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate,
>> Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).
>>
>> Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security
>> deposit, 199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training,
>> unlimited and without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely
>> on Debian. Free updates.
>>
>> The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making
>> disable people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage
>> without technical skills (but opened for those who have them).
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>> Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :
>>> what is hypra?
>>>
>>> On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:
>>>> Hi Devin,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>>>>
>>>> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run
>>>> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you
>>>> use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
>>>> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>>>>
>>>> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>>>>
>>>> > It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
>>>> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,
>>>> Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking,
>>>> autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation,
>>>> all configurable, throughout the system, not just in > your word
>>>> processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>>>>
>>>> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all
>>>> right. And all the Debian catalog.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion
>>>> point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the
>>>> arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are
>>>> usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the
>>>> releases are often much better than the public beta versions.
>>>>
>>>> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to
>>>> see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not
>>>> held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if
>>>> all we have left in Linux is the command line.
>>>>
>>>> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you
>>>> aware of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn
>>>> yourself, hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible
>>>> accesories, try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said
>>>> one of their community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an
>>>> out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay
>>>> accessible through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to,
>>>> in order to request for things and getting support and training,
>>>> fund the free software dev to avoid such dark future as described
>>>> on the thread. You can connect most accessories (even Apple ones
>>>> despite many complexities).
>>>> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac
>>>> whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible,
>>>> warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties,
>>>> hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free
>>>> software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of
>>>> paying for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

12