Hi, I am blind

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Hi, I am blind

adri Orjales Vidal
Hello, I am blind and I need to use a screen reader so I can use my pc. I am tired to use windows, and I wanted to start using Devian, but here I saw that the screen reader Orca is kilometers away from NVDA, non visual desktop access, wich is a windows screen reader very fast. NVDA is open source, and it is developed over python
I think that if you are able to add it in Devian I will be the happiest man in the world!!
If it is not possible, please you should update Orca, the screen readers are more useful when are low level of system development, so you must change the way to make it really useful
Please, blind people need help in Devian based distributions like itself

Please feel free to visit the NVDA webpage
Nvaccess.org
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Re: Hi, I am blind

Clément Hermann-2
Hi,

(assuming you mean "Debian" and not "Devian" here, but that doesn't
change much in this case anyway).

On 14/04/2018 08:56, adri Orjales Vidal wrote:
> Hello, I am blind and I need to use a screen reader so I can use my pc. I am tired to use windows, and I wanted to start using Devian, but here I saw that the screen reader Orca is kilometers away from NVDA, non visual desktop access, wich is a windows screen reader very fast. NVDA is open source, and it is developed over python

Sadly, that doesn't mean it can easily work on a Linux system. There is
an issue upstream where they stated that they wouldn't work on this for
now: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/6104

> I think that if you are able to add it in Devian I will be the happiest man in the world!!
> If it is not possible, please you should update Orca, the screen readers are more useful when are low level of system development, so you must change the way to make it really useful

I'm not sure what you mean by "low level of system development". In the
last stable version, you only get orca 3.22, but that's they way stable
work. You can get a more recent version by using testing (buster) but
that's not recommanded for everyone. There are no backports available
currently (https://backports.debian.org/, that would get you 3.28), and
I'm not sure how feasible it would be to backport it without backporting
all of GNOME.

That said, have you checked
https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-accessibility/ ?

Cheers,

--
nodens

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Samuel Thibault-8
Hello,

Clément Hermann, le sam. 14 avril 2018 16:14:57 +0200, a ecrit:
> There are no backports available
> currently (https://backports.debian.org/, that would get you 3.28), and
> I'm not sure how feasible it would be to backport it without backporting
> all of GNOME.

Only the at-spi part needs backporting.  I have done the packaging, I am
waiting for test results before uploading orca 3.28 to
stretch-backports.

Samuel

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Re: Hi, I am blind

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
In reply to this post by adri Orjales Vidal
Hi,

Le 14/04/2018 à 08:56, adri Orjales Vidal a écrit :
> Hello, I am blind and I need to use a screen reader so I can use my pc. I am tired to use windows, and I wanted to start using Devian, but here I saw that the screen reader Orca is kilometers away from NVDA, non visual desktop access, wich is a windows screen reader very fast. NVDA is open source, and it is developed over python

What kind of problems do you experience to say that Orca is less good
than NVDA? In what context did you use it? You have to know that Orca
good working depends of the desktop environment you use. Hypra uses MATE
on Debian, and we set a bindings profile similar as NVDA one. Our
regular users say that it is not different from NVDA, provided we do an
adequate configuration. And more stable than Windows (less updates,
notifications, etc).

> I think that if you are able to add it in Devian I will be the happiest man in the world!!

It is absolutely impossible. Because NVDA uses the accessibility stack
of Windows, different from Linux. So writing again major part of the
code would be needed. However, it is important Orca, which offers an
excellent basis, to be improved. For this, we need your feedback. But
again, it may depend on what you installed and used exactly. That is to
avoid users to need to handle these problems that Hypra provides a full
configured system.

> If it is not possible, please you should update Orca, the screen readers are more useful when are low level of system development, so you must change the way to make it really useful

Be aware of the fact Orca is developped by just one person and Hypra
helps as we can. We have significant less resources by NVDA, funded by
Mozilla and so on. So you cannot require things, free, not funded, and
without giving details and staying general. The todo list is enormous
due to the fact many developers do applications with accessibility bugs
(Firefox, Libreoffice). While we can do priorities, users need to tell
us which one, and precisely.

> Please, blind people need help in Devian based distributions like itself

And Debian need users contributions. Debian is a free software with
volunteers and not supported by fundings for accessibility. So convince
Mozilla to help us, to stop coding nonsense features inaccessible, and
you will see the result will be neast.

> Please feel free to visit the NVDA webpage
> Nvaccess.org
>

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Re: Hi, I am blind

adri Orjales Vidal
Thanks everybody, I will use the accesibility list to talk about this, sorry and thanks again
Enviado desde mi iPhone

> El 14 abr 2018, a las 20:45, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> Hi,
>
>> Le 14/04/2018 à 08:56, adri Orjales Vidal a écrit :
>> Hello, I am blind and I need to use a screen reader so I can use my pc. I am tired to use windows, and I wanted to start using Devian, but here I saw that the screen reader Orca is kilometers away from NVDA, non visual desktop access, wich is a windows screen reader very fast. NVDA is open source, and it is developed over python
>
> What kind of problems do you experience to say that Orca is less good
> than NVDA? In what context did you use it? You have to know that Orca
> good working depends of the desktop environment you use. Hypra uses MATE
> on Debian, and we set a bindings profile similar as NVDA one. Our
> regular users say that it is not different from NVDA, provided we do an
> adequate configuration. And more stable than Windows (less updates,
> notifications, etc).
>
>> I think that if you are able to add it in Devian I will be the happiest man in the world!!
>
> It is absolutely impossible. Because NVDA uses the accessibility stack
> of Windows, different from Linux. So writing again major part of the
> code would be needed. However, it is important Orca, which offers an
> excellent basis, to be improved. For this, we need your feedback. But
> again, it may depend on what you installed and used exactly. That is to
> avoid users to need to handle these problems that Hypra provides a full
> configured system.
>
>> If it is not possible, please you should update Orca, the screen readers are more useful when are low level of system development, so you must change the way to make it really useful
>
> Be aware of the fact Orca is developped by just one person and Hypra
> helps as we can. We have significant less resources by NVDA, funded by
> Mozilla and so on. So you cannot require things, free, not funded, and
> without giving details and staying general. The todo list is enormous
> due to the fact many developers do applications with accessibility bugs
> (Firefox, Libreoffice). While we can do priorities, users need to tell
> us which one, and precisely.
>
>> Please, blind people need help in Devian based distributions like itself
>
> And Debian need users contributions. Debian is a free software with
> volunteers and not supported by fundings for accessibility. So convince
> Mozilla to help us, to stop coding nonsense features inaccessible, and
> you will see the result will be neast.
>
>> Please feel free to visit the NVDA webpage
>> Nvaccess.org
>>

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Steffen Möller
In reply to this post by adri Orjales Vidal
Hi,

the Debian derivative KNOPPIX comes with a boot option "adriane" that
may help you.  An English page I found on
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/knoppix-adriane.html which is a bit
old (2009). The latest version with the Ariadne boot parameter is
described and downloadable on
http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix810.html .

The problem with Debian for supporting blind users is that most of its
developers are not (yet) visually impaired beyond wearing glasses. They
don't have the devices which are costly and even if they had then they
likely have nobody to test it. I have no immediate idea how to help that
situation.

Cheers,

Steffen

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Re: Hi, I am blind

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Hi,

Le 15/04/2018 à 15:49, Steffen Möller a écrit :
> Hi,
>
>
> The problem with Debian for supporting blind users is that most of its
> developers are not (yet) visually impaired beyond wearing glasses. They
> don't have the devices which are costly and even if they had then they
> likely have nobody to test it. I have no immediate idea how to help that
> situation.

It is quite important that accessibility work not to be done only by
disabled persons. First because in free software, disable persons are
few. Next because to make an inaccessible program accessible, difficult
without any idea about what it looks. Major developers of accessibility
in free software have no visual problems: Orca is developped by
Joanmarie, GNOME accessibility by Alejandro Pinero, Debian installer by
Samuel, etc

To help, you can take as basis what Samuel Thibault explained at Debconf
2015 (Heidelberg). His talk explained many things. Other useful
resources are on Development page of the Hypra website.

To sum up, exploring a program via accerciser shows what it sends to
accessibility stack and how it is accessible. Running orca with -e
braille-monitor option shows what a user will read on a braille display.
brltty provides similar features for people without braille display
(Samuel does not have one). Finally, if devs could label correctly their
widgets and create correct relationship between them, it would help.

In Debian, the fact the installer is accessible is quite excellent. The
fact the accessibility is enabled by defautl in GUI is good. I think the
most effort needs to be done upstream now. Of course, see
https://wiki.debian.iorg/accessibility-devel for todo specific to
Debian. For example, adding a tag to mention if some package is or not
accessible would be a good idea.

Regards

>
> Cheers,
>
> Steffen
>
>

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Paul Wise via nm
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:20 AM, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

> resources are on Development page of the Hypra website.

I had never heard of Hypra so I had to go searching for it:

http://hypra.fr/-What-is-Hypra-.html?lang=en

This appears to be the development page you mentioned:

http://hypra.fr/Developpement-72.html?lang=en

> For example, adding a tag to mention if some package is or not
> accessible would be a good idea.

There is already an accessibility facet, but it covers tools:

https://debtags.debian.org/reports/facets/accessibility

I guess the way to go would be to create a new accessible-to:: facet
indicating which groups of abilities that each package is accessible
to. A bug against debtags with some initial set of tags would be the
way to start on this. If there is some existing standard for such
classification then the debtags should probably be based on that.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Samuel Thibault-8
Hello,

Paul Wise, le lun. 16 avril 2018 10:05:52 +0800, a ecrit:

> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:20 AM, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:
> > For example, adding a tag to mention if some package is or not
> > accessible would be a good idea.
>
> There is already an accessibility facet, but it covers tools:
>
> https://debtags.debian.org/reports/facets/accessibility
>
> I guess the way to go would be to create a new accessible-to:: facet
> indicating which groups of abilities that each package is accessible
> to. A bug against debtags with some initial set of tags would be the
> way to start on this.

Well, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=855446 already
got uploaded, but it seems
https://debtags.debian.org/
hasn't gotten updated yet.

Samuel

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Paul Wise via nm
On Mon, 2018-04-16 at 10:15 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Well, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=855446

accessible-via seems different to what I propose.

accessible-via references software that makes each package accessible.

The proposed accessible-to would reference classes of abilities that
are required to use the package. For example accessible-to::sighted.
I've no idea if this sort of thing would be useful though.

> but it seems https://debtags.debian.org/ hasn't gotten updated yet.

I'd suggest filing another bug about that.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Samuel Thibault-8
Paul Wise, le mar. 17 avril 2018 11:20:15 +0800, a ecrit:
> On Mon, 2018-04-16 at 10:15 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>
> > Well, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=855446
>
> accessible-via seems different to what I propose.
>
> accessible-via references software that makes each package accessible.

Not exactly software, but the kind of support that software provides:
braille, speech, and which software because that makes a technical
difference in the quality of the information provided.

> The proposed accessible-to would reference classes of abilities that
> are required to use the package. For example accessible-to::sighted.
> I've no idea if this sort of thing would be useful though.

The problem is that "abilities" is a terrible beast to define. "sighted"
for instance does not mean anything, since there is an extremely wide
range of sightedness, which can't for instance actually be reduced a
single "quality" scalar value as opticians define. "being able to read
written braille", "being able to hear speech synthesis", "being able to
read a zoomed display", however, does mean something to users, thus the
accessible-via tags.

> > but it seems https://debtags.debian.org/ hasn't gotten updated yet.
>
> I'd suggest filing another bug about that.

Eww.

Samuel

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Re: Hi, I am blind

Tony Godshall
In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
I think accessibility for the blind will help us all.

For example, there are times when a sighted person might be better
served with an audio interface, or an alternate visual interface.

I hope to explore some of the options myself.  Thanks for the pointers, Mengual.




On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 3:21 PM MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> Le 15/04/2018 à 15:49, Steffen Möller a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > The problem with Debian for supporting blind users is that most of its
> > developers are not (yet) visually impaired beyond wearing glasses. They
> > don't have the devices which are costly and even if they had then they
> > likely have nobody to test it. I have no immediate idea how to help that
> > situation.
>
> It is quite important that accessibility work not to be done only by
> disabled persons. First because in free software, disable persons are
> few. Next because to make an inaccessible program accessible, difficult
> without any idea about what it looks. Major developers of accessibility
> in free software have no visual problems: Orca is developped by
> Joanmarie, GNOME accessibility by Alejandro Pinero, Debian installer by
> Samuel, etc
>
> To help, you can take as basis what Samuel Thibault explained at Debconf
> 2015 (Heidelberg). His talk explained many things. Other useful
> resources are on Development page of the Hypra website.
>
> To sum up, exploring a program via accerciser shows what it sends to
> accessibility stack and how it is accessible. Running orca with -e
> braille-monitor option shows what a user will read on a braille display.
> brltty provides similar features for people without braille display
> (Samuel does not have one). Finally, if devs could label correctly their
> widgets and create correct relationship between them, it would help.
>
> In Debian, the fact the installer is accessible is quite excellent. The
> fact the accessibility is enabled by defautl in GUI is good. I think the
> most effort needs to be done upstream now. Of course, see
> https://wiki.debian.iorg/accessibility-devel for todo specific to
> Debian. For example, adding a tag to mention if some package is or not
> accessible would be a good idea.
>
> Regards
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Steffen
> >
> >
>


--
--
Best Regards.
This is unedited.
This message came out of me
via a suboptimal keyboard.