How stable is the frozen stretch?

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How stable is the frozen stretch?

RavenLX
I am thinking about trying out Stretch (Debian 9) in either a spare
laptop or a virtual machine. If I like it I might just point my sources
list to that repo on both laptops if it's stable enough.

My question is, once it's "frozen", how stable is it or is it still
pretty much not suitable for production yet? I also use a couple
programs from outside ppas (*gulp!* :-O) and am taking into
consideration conflicts with those as well. They do work great with the
current stable.


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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Fungi4All


> I am thinking about trying out Stretch (Debian 9) in either a spare
> laptop or a virtual machine. If I like it I might just point my sources
> list to that repo on both laptops if it's stable enough.

For my use and the packages I need both stretch and sid have been rock stable, in most cases you can hardly tell the difference from Jessie.

> My question is, once it's "frozen", how stable is it or is it still
> pretty much not suitable for production yet? I also use a couple
> programs from outside ppas (*gulp!* :-O) and am taking into
> consideration conflicts with those as well. They do work great with the
> current stable.

First check the hardware differences that are supported, then take a look at the bug lists for testing and unstable to see if you are using any buggy packages that do not apply on stable.  If you don't see anything that relates to your use you will be happy.

Don't let the terms testing/unstable scare you much.  Remember many distributions are based on those two and not stable.

It all depends on your specific use.
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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Michael Milliman
In reply to this post by RavenLX


On 05/06/2017 04:55 PM, RavenLX wrote:
> I am thinking about trying out Stretch (Debian 9) in either a spare
> laptop or a virtual machine. If I like it I might just point my sources
> list to that repo on both laptops if it's stable enough.
>
I can't speak categorically, but In installed Stretch a couple of months
ago on my older laptop.  It has been running without a hitch 24/7 since
then.
> My question is, once it's "frozen", how stable is it or is it still
> pretty much not suitable for production yet?

The word 'stable' doesn't refer to the stability of the installed system
vis-a-vis system crashes, etc.  It refers to the packages and versions
in the repositories for the distribution.  It is stable in that
the packages currently part of the release 9 distribution are/will be
the packages available at the versions currently in the repositories. It
is frozen in the sense that no new packages/version upgrades will be
admitted to the Stretch distribution. Patches may still be made to fix
security issues and serious bugs.  During this time between freezing the
distribution and its actual release as the 'stable' distribution it is
thoroughly tested to make sure everything works and the various packages
talk to each other they way they should.  In effect, Stretch is under
beta testing.  Usually, by the time Stretch reaches the 'frozen' stage,
most of the major issues have been worked out, and it is reasonably
ready for production.  However, they may still be a few problems to be
worked out...it is a beta after all.

I also use a couple
> programs from outside ppas (*gulp!* :-O) and am taking into
> consideration conflicts with those as well. They do work great with the
> current stable.

I use out of distribution packages on occasion as well.  However, there
is no guarantee that such packages will work or continue to work under
the new distribution, even after it is released as Debian Stable.
Having said that, if they worked under Debian 8, they may well work
under Debian 9.  Keep in mind, however, the libraries available with
Debian 9 will in many cases be new and updated versions, and may not be
the same as the ones used by the out of distribution packages. So there
may be some compatibility issues. (Issues I did have with one of the
out-of-distribution packages I use.)

Give it a try.  If it works for you great.  If you have problems,
especially with packages/libraries within the distribution, report them
so that they can be addressed and fixed.  That kind of input is
important in getting the Stretch distribution through the process to the
Stable distribution.

--
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

RavenLX
In reply to this post by Fungi4All
On 05/06/2017 06:31 PM, Fungi4All wrote:
> First check the hardware differences that are supported, then take a
> look at the bug lists for testing and unstable to see if you are using
> any buggy packages that do not apply on stable.  If you don't see
> anything that relates to your use you will be happy.

Good idea. I didn't see anything that would be too much of a problem,
overall (even on a virtual machine).

> Don't let the terms testing/unstable scare you much.  Remember many
> distributions are based on those two and not stable.
>
> It all depends on your specific use.

I remember some time back I used SolydK and if I remember right, they
based theirs on Testing, come to think of it.


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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

RavenLX
In reply to this post by Michael Milliman
On 05/06/2017 06:46 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
> beta testing.  Usually, by the time Stretch reaches the 'frozen' stage,
> most of the major issues have been worked out, and it is reasonably
> ready for production.  However, they may still be a few problems to be
> worked out...it is a beta after all.

I have come to know over the years nothing is 100% perfect, even if it's
out of beta. :) I've used beta software in the past that was very
stable, and used stable software in the past that was buggier than
you-know-what. (I must say the majority of the buggy software was back
when I used to use Windows as my main OS). Since I use Debian as my main
OS, I have had quite reliable and rock-solid results.

> I use out of distribution packages on occasion as well.  However, there
> is no guarantee that such packages will work or continue to work under
> the new distribution, even after it is released as Debian Stable.

The ones I use are Google Chrome (because I need to have things like
bookmarks, etc. available across several devices), JEdit (I use this for
development), TLP Power Management (because otherwise my laptop's fan
would be on all the time and it would get quite hot for some reason),
Thunderbird from Ubuntuzilla, and VirtualBox (because I like to have the
latest). Also videolan is in there for the stuff needed for playing DVDs
on my laptops. I don't use CiaroDock right now but I do have it
commented out in case I want to go back to it. Also I added the
backports repo. That's the crazy setup I have. I'm thinking of doing
this for GIMP and Blender as well. Not sure yet. I like having new
features. :) I'm considering going back to KDE and having the latest KDE
updates, too (right now I'm doing quite well with XFCE from the Jessie
repo). Sometimes I like to try different things (and do so usually first
in a virtual machine for awhile).

> Having said that, if they worked under Debian 8, they may well work
> under Debian 9.  Keep in mind, however, the libraries available with
> Debian 9 will in many cases be new and updated versions, and may not be
> the same as the ones used by the out of distribution packages. So there
> may be some compatibility issues. (Issues I did have with one of the
> out-of-distribution packages I use.)

I've had that happen a long time ago with something (I forgot what now).
Very much a PITA.

> Give it a try.  If it works for you great.

Going to do that in a VM first.

> If you have problems,
> especially with packages/libraries within the distribution, report them
> so that they can be addressed and fixed.  That kind of input is
> important in getting the Stretch distribution through the process to the
> Stable distribution.

I'll earn the "dumb question of the century" award for this but...

What list do I report bugs to and is there something online that tells
someone (who doesn't normally report bugs) the proper way to do bug reports?

Thank you for the detailed information you gave. It's very much
appreciated. :)

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Michael Milliman


On 05/06/2017 06:38 PM, RavenLX wrote:

> On 05/06/2017 06:46 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
>> beta testing.  Usually, by the time Stretch reaches the 'frozen' stage,
>> most of the major issues have been worked out, and it is reasonably
>> ready for production.  However, they may still be a few problems to be
>> worked out...it is a beta after all.
>
> I have come to know over the years nothing is 100% perfect, even if it's
> out of beta. :) I've used beta software in the past that was very
> stable, and used stable software in the past that was buggier than
> you-know-what. (I must say the majority of the buggy software was back
> when I used to use Windows as my main OS). Since I use Debian as my main
> OS, I have had quite reliable and rock-solid results.
>
>> I use out of distribution packages on occasion as well.  However, there
>> is no guarantee that such packages will work or continue to work under
>> the new distribution, even after it is released as Debian Stable.
>
> The ones I use are Google Chrome (because I need to have things like
> bookmarks, etc. available across several devices), JEdit (I use this for
> development), TLP Power Management (because otherwise my laptop's fan
> would be on all the time and it would get quite hot for some reason),
> Thunderbird from Ubuntuzilla, and VirtualBox (because I like to have the
> latest). Also videolan is in there for the stuff needed for playing DVDs
> on my laptops. I don't use CiaroDock right now but I do have it
> commented out in case I want to go back to it. Also I added the
> backports repo. That's the crazy setup I have. I'm thinking of doing
> this for GIMP and Blender as well. Not sure yet. I like having new
> features. :) I'm considering going back to KDE and having the latest KDE
> updates, too (right now I'm doing quite well with XFCE from the Jessie
> repo). Sometimes I like to try different things (and do so usually first
> in a virtual machine for awhile).
>
>> Having said that, if they worked under Debian 8, they may well work
>> under Debian 9.  Keep in mind, however, the libraries available with
>> Debian 9 will in many cases be new and updated versions, and may not be
>> the same as the ones used by the out of distribution packages. So there
>> may be some compatibility issues. (Issues I did have with one of the
>> out-of-distribution packages I use.)
>
> I've had that happen a long time ago with something (I forgot what now).
> Very much a PITA.
>
>> Give it a try.  If it works for you great.
>
> Going to do that in a VM first.
>
>> If you have problems,
>> especially with packages/libraries within the distribution, report them
>> so that they can be addressed and fixed.  That kind of input is
>> important in getting the Stretch distribution through the process to the
>> Stable distribution.
>
> I'll earn the "dumb question of the century" award for this but...
>
> What list do I report bugs to and is there something online that tells
> someone (who doesn't normally report bugs) the proper way to do bug
> reports?
>
That is most definitely NOT a dumb question!! It is difficult at times
to determine where to report bugs.  However, if the bug is within the
Debian distribution, I would use the Debian bug reporter to report it,
the development team will work with upstream as necessary to resolve the
problem.  If if is out-of-distribution, they you would have to report it
through whatever method the package distributer provides for doing such
things, which varies from package to package.

> Thank you for the detailed information you gave. It's very much
> appreciated. :)
>

--
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

RavenLX
On 05/06/2017 08:07 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
> That is most definitely NOT a dumb question!! It is difficult at times
> to determine where to report bugs.  However, if the bug is within the
> Debian distribution, I would use the Debian bug reporter to report it,
> the development team will work with upstream as necessary to resolve the
> problem.

You know what, I never realized that was in there! I had to find it in
the debian menu in XFCE (which I rarely use, since I have everything I
need in a side panel).

Many thanks for this info.


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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Michael Milliman
My pleasure. Good luck! 

73's,
de WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

On May 6, 2017 9:24 PM, "RavenLX" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/06/2017 08:07 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:
That is most definitely NOT a dumb question!! It is difficult at times
to determine where to report bugs.  However, if the bug is within the
Debian distribution, I would use the Debian bug reporter to report it,
the development team will work with upstream as necessary to resolve the
problem.

You know what, I never realized that was in there! I had to find it in the debian menu in XFCE (which I rarely use, since I have everything I need in a side panel).

Many thanks for this info.


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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

RavenLX
In reply to this post by RavenLX
On 05/07/2017 04:33 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> By the way, the words "unstable" "stable" as used in the distribution names
> don't mean likely to crash, --- it refers to the amount of changes
> occurring, i.e. 'stable' has no new packages entering it, and supposedly only
> security updates, whereas "unstable" is unstable because there are many
> changes occuring on a constant basis.

Thank you for this info. I admit I always thought "unstable" meant it
might still have bugs or still be in beta. I don't mind when things
change frequently because sometimes this is how one can get new features
in a newer version of a program.


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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Cindy Sue Causey
In reply to this post by Michael Milliman
On 5/6/17, Michael Milliman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 05/06/2017 04:55 PM, RavenLX wrote:
>> I am thinking about trying out Stretch (Debian 9) in either a spare
>> laptop or a virtual machine. If I like it I might just point my sources
>> list to that repo on both laptops if it's stable enough.
>>
> I can't speak categorically, but In installed Stretch a couple of months
> ago on my older laptop.  It has been running without a hitch 24/7 since
> then.


That's me, too. I can't remember exactly when, but i mentioned
something about it on here regarding Chromium several months ago. Sid
Unstable and I are.... on a break. It was just too much to keep up
with the FABULOUSLY active updates that are occurring.

So I skipped over Stretch and went with Jessie. Jessie lasted a grand
total of maybe about 3 days, I think it was. Websites keep complaining
that my Chromium was out of date. Unfortunately my Chromium was as
current as the repos had at that moment.

Tinkering to stay on Jessie was not a cognitively friendly option so I
stepped over to Stretch. If there has even been a tiny burp of a
problem, it was so small or was fixed so quickly that I don't remember
it.

#ThankYou, Developers! I'm about to do something extremely #Life
changing in a few minutes. I *literally* could not do it without all
the well functioning Debian packages I'm about to spend the entire
rest of the evening buried in....

Cindy :)

--
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* aumix, mtp, inkscape, gimp, openshot, thunar, xine, notes > YOU'RE ON DECK! *

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Michael Milliman
In reply to this post by RavenLX


On 05/07/2017 04:19 PM, RavenLX wrote:

> On 05/07/2017 04:33 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> By the way, the words "unstable" "stable" as used in the distribution
>> names
>> don't mean likely to crash, --- it refers to the amount of changes
>> occurring, i.e. 'stable' has no new packages entering it, and
>> supposedly only
>> security updates, whereas "unstable" is unstable because there are many
>> changes occuring on a constant basis.
>
> Thank you for this info. I admit I always thought "unstable" meant it
> might still have bugs or still be in beta. I don't mind when things
> change frequently because sometimes this is how one can get new features
> in a newer version of a program.
>
Yeah, this is one of the main things sited as a drawback to the Debian
distribution....packages are sometimes a little older than in other
distributions.  But, this is because the Debian developers spend so much
time making sure that they work properly in the distribution before they
are released in the repositories.  As a result, things change a lot less
frequently.  The benefit of this is that Debian is 'stable' in all
senses of the word...few serious bugs and system instability, and little
or no instability in what is part of the distribution.  For many people,
especially businesses, this stability is important.  For others, like
myself, I can afford a little more instability, and so can deal with any
instability in testing for the benefit of getting newer versions of the
packages and run Testing (Stretch). Many people also run Experimental
(Sid) for the benefit of bleeding-edge versions of software, but a lot
of instability (in all senses of the word).
>

--
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

songbird
Michael Milliman wrote:

> On 05/07/2017 04:19 PM, RavenLX wrote:
>> On 05/07/2017 04:33 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> By the way, the words "unstable" "stable" as used in the distribution
>>> names
>>> don't mean likely to crash, --- it refers to the amount of changes
>>> occurring, i.e. 'stable' has no new packages entering it, and
>>> supposedly only
>>> security updates, whereas "unstable" is unstable because there are many
>>> changes occuring on a constant basis.
>>
>> Thank you for this info. I admit I always thought "unstable" meant it
>> might still have bugs or still be in beta. I don't mind when things
>> change frequently because sometimes this is how one can get new features
>> in a newer version of a program.
>>
> Yeah, this is one of the main things sited as a drawback to the Debian
> distribution....packages are sometimes a little older than in other
> distributions.  But, this is because the Debian developers spend so much
> time making sure that they work properly in the distribution before they
> are released in the repositories.  As a result, things change a lot less
> frequently.  The benefit of this is that Debian is 'stable' in all
> senses of the word...few serious bugs and system instability, and little
> or no instability in what is part of the distribution.  For many people,
> especially businesses, this stability is important.  For others, like
> myself, I can afford a little more instability, and so can deal with any
> instability in testing for the benefit of getting newer versions of the
> packages and run Testing (Stretch).

> Many people also run Experimental (Sid) for the benefit of
> bleeding-edge versions of software, but a lot of instability
> (in all senses of the word).

  please note that Experimental is not the same as
unstable (Sid).  it is yet another repository and has no
claims of usability at all.


  songbird

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Lisi Reisz
In reply to this post by Michael Milliman
On Monday 08 May 2017 00:45:34 Michael Milliman wrote:
> Many people also run Experimental
> (Sid) for the benefit of bleeding-edge versions of software, but a lot
> of instability (in all senses of the word).

No, Sid is not the same as Experimental.  Sid is Unstable.  Then there is also
Experimental, which cannot actually be run, but from which packages can be
taken (if you like to live dangerously ;-)  )

Lisi

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Greg Wooledge
In reply to this post by RavenLX
On Sat, May 06, 2017 at 07:38:34PM -0400, RavenLX wrote:
> What list do I report bugs to and is there something online that tells
> someone (who doesn't normally report bugs) the proper way to do bug reports?

For most users, the preferred way is to run the reportbug program.

You can see more details (including other ways to file bug reports)
at http://bugs.debian.org/

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Brian
In reply to this post by Lisi Reisz
On Mon 08 May 2017 at 12:13:30 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Monday 08 May 2017 00:45:34 Michael Milliman wrote:
> > Many people also run Experimental
> > (Sid) for the benefit of bleeding-edge versions of software, but a lot
> > of instability (in all senses of the word).
>
> No, Sid is not the same as Experimental.  Sid is Unstable.  Then there is also
> Experimental, which cannot actually be run, but from which packages can be
> taken (if you like to live dangerously ;-)  )

experimental is not a distribution. Someone with a sense of humour gave
it the codename "rc-buggy". At the present time many of the packages
there are being held back from unstable because of the freeze. Once
Stretch is officially released they will migrate to unstable. They will
be no less dangerous there than they were in experimental (unless bugs
have been fixed in the meantime).

However, I agree with your sentiment. Users installing packages from the
experimental archive should read the changelogs carefully and be prepared
to meet and report bugs.

--
Brian.


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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Sven Hartge-5
Brian <[hidden email]> wrote:

> experimental is not a distribution. Someone with a sense of humour gave
> it the codename "rc-buggy". At the present time many of the packages
> there are being held back from unstable because of the freeze. Once
> Stretch is officially released they will migrate to unstable.

Just to clarify: They will not "migrate" in the same sense as packages
migrate from Unstable to Testing automatically. To "migrate" a package
from Experimental to Unstable the maintainer has to reupload it with a
higher version number.



--
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Jonathan Dowland
In reply to this post by RavenLX
On Sat, May 06, 2017 at 05:55:44PM -0400, RavenLX wrote:
> I am thinking about trying out Stretch (Debian 9) in either a spare laptop
> or a virtual machine. If I like it I might just point my sources list to
> that repo on both laptops if it's stable enough.

At this point - except for an important production service - I'd install stretch
over jessie with no hesitation. *Especially* on a throw-away VM or spare laptop
(in fact I have done so on several of both, many times, in the last few weeks).

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

Brian
In reply to this post by Sven Hartge-5
On Mon 08 May 2017 at 17:07:34 +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:

> Brian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > experimental is not a distribution. Someone with a sense of humour gave
> > it the codename "rc-buggy". At the present time many of the packages
> > there are being held back from unstable because of the freeze. Once
> > Stretch is officially released they will migrate to unstable.
>
> Just to clarify: They will not "migrate" in the same sense as packages
> migrate from Unstable to Testing automatically. To "migrate" a package
> from Experimental to Unstable the maintainer has to reupload it with a
> higher version number.

That is correct. I was using "migrate" in the general sense of "moving".
Some packages can be in experimental a long time for one reason or
another. For example, experimental pmount fixes a particular bug. If a
user wants that version for that reason there is no need to be afraid to
try it. pmount is orphaned and, as yet, no one has seen fit to move it
to unstable.

Another example (from memory) is polkit. There is an aspect to it which
its maintainer does not want to unleash on unstable as yet. cups and
cups-filters, however, is in experimental probably because its
maintainer does not want it to migrate to testing at this stage. The
version there is rock solid and new aspects to the software require more
exposure before being considered for stable at this late stage.

Different reasons for different packages.

--
Brian.

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

RavenLX
In reply to this post by Michael Milliman
My system is used for work (I work from home exclusively) and stuff I do
sometimes can be mission-critical in that if I'm notified, I might have
to go and do some work right away on something important. Customers
would be relying on my ability to fix things. So, I really can't afford
something to go down on my machine. This is why I have a spare laptop
just in case my "main" laptop has a problem. They are both set up
identical and data files are backed up very frequently so all I need to
do is get the backups onto the spare laptop and be good to go within
minutes.

Stability, in my case, is a must. However, I do like to have newer
features as well.


On 05/07/2017 07:45 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:

> Yeah, this is one of the main things sited as a drawback to the Debian
> distribution....packages are sometimes a little older than in other
> distributions.  But, this is because the Debian developers spend so much
> time making sure that they work properly in the distribution before they
> are released in the repositories.  As a result, things change a lot less
> frequently.  The benefit of this is that Debian is 'stable' in all
> senses of the word...few serious bugs and system instability, and little
> or no instability in what is part of the distribution.  For many people,
> especially businesses, this stability is important.  For others, like
> myself, I can afford a little more instability, and so can deal with any
> instability in testing for the benefit of getting newer versions of the
> packages and run Testing (Stretch). Many people also run Experimental
> (Sid) for the benefit of bleeding-edge versions of software, but a lot
> of instability (in all senses of the word).

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Re: How stable is the frozen stretch?

songbird
RavenLX wrote:

> My system is used for work (I work from home exclusively) and stuff I do
> sometimes can be mission-critical in that if I'm notified, I might have
> to go and do some work right away on something important. Customers
> would be relying on my ability to fix things. So, I really can't afford
> something to go down on my machine. This is why I have a spare laptop
> just in case my "main" laptop has a problem. They are both set up
> identical and data files are backed up very frequently so all I need to
> do is get the backups onto the spare laptop and be good to go within
> minutes.
>
> Stability, in my case, is a must. However, I do like to have newer
> features as well.

  you can set up several partitions with different
levels of fun if you want.

  i run testing and some packages from unstable or
experimental at times as two different booting systems.
to make sure that i always have a bootable system i
only update the partitions in steps several months
apart which means i have at least one of them that
boots and is pretty well tested for the programs i
use the most often.

  if you wanted to you could have one partition for
booting the stable distribution and only update that
when you have a good time for that.

  the thing with these setups is that in Debian you
don't have to get automatic updates if you don't want
them so you know when the system is being upgraded.


  songbird

123