Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

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Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Joerg Jaspert
Hi

back in August 2018 we discussed architecture inclusion into
unstable/experimental.

Today we had our regular FTPMaster meeting and discussed hurd and both
kfreebsd architecture and decided to remove them from unstable and
experimental 2 weeks from now.

--
bye, Joerg
The sun? That’s the hottest place on Earth.

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
Hello,

Joerg Jaspert, le ven. 12 avril 2019 22:48:42 +0200, a ecrit:
> back in August 2018 we discussed architecture inclusion into
> unstable/experimental.
>
> Today we had our regular FTPMaster meeting and discussed hurd and both
> kfreebsd architecture and decided to remove them from unstable and
> experimental 2 weeks from now.

Just before the Buster release? That's far from the easiest timing.

I was hoping to do a non-official relase of Debian Hurd along Buster as
usual, but a change of archive, which means uploading packages, fixing
scripts, etc. will take a lot of time, which I simply just will not have
within the coming two-three months (I am already struggling to find time
to do what I engaged to). Basically, it means no non-official release of
Debian Hurd along Buster. Or at best I could just make that non-official
release now, with all the still pending RC bugs.

How is the move to debian-ports supposed to happen? I won't have the
time to do anything about it within the 2 weeks.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Bernd Zeimetz


On 4/12/19 11:01 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> I was hoping to do a non-official relase of Debian Hurd along Buster as
> usual, but a change of archive, which means uploading packages, fixing
> scripts, etc. will take a lot of time, which I simply just will not have
> within the coming two-three months (I am already struggling to find time
> to do what I engaged to).

While I appreciate your efforts, I have to be honest and say: If there
are no other people to help here, you've just proven that this
architecture should be moved to ports. Nothing will stop you from
releasing a hurd buster release using ports.


--
 Bernd Zeimetz                            Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.de                                http://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
Bernd Zeimetz, le ven. 12 avril 2019 23:14:10 +0200, a ecrit:

> On 4/12/19 11:01 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > I was hoping to do a non-official relase of Debian Hurd along Buster as
> > usual, but a change of archive, which means uploading packages, fixing
> > scripts, etc. will take a lot of time, which I simply just will not have
> > within the coming two-three months (I am already struggling to find time
> > to do what I engaged to).
>
> While I appreciate your efforts, I have to be honest and say: If there
> are no other people to help here, you've just proven that this
> architecture should be moved to ports.

I am not saying that the hurd-i386 port shouldn't
be moved to ports (see the report I made on
https://lists.debian.org/debian-hurd/2018/09/msg00000.html , my only
potential concern was with the workload of debian-ports).

I am only saying that this is really a bad timing.

> Nothing will stop you from releasing a hurd buster release using
> ports.

Time will. I will have time later, but that'll be after the Buster
release, i.e. a *way* less coherent set of packages since a flurry
of package updates will happen, thus less usable, if installable at
all. The only alternative I have is to make the release now with the RC
bugs.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Joerg Jaspert
In reply to this post by Samuel Thibault-8
On 15370 March 1977, Samuel Thibault wrote:

>> Today we had our regular FTPMaster meeting and discussed hurd and both
>> kfreebsd architecture and decided to remove them from unstable and
>> experimental 2 weeks from now.
> Just before the Buster release? That's far from the easiest timing.

There is never an easy timing.

[...]
> within the coming two-three months (I am already struggling to find time
> to do what I engaged to). Basically, it means no non-official release of
> Debian Hurd along Buster. Or at best I could just make that non-official
> release now, with all the still pending RC bugs.

It all depending on the amount of people the above shows (one) is one
good reason why its not viable.

> How is the move to debian-ports supposed to happen? I won't have the
> time to do anything about it within the 2 weeks.

I honestly wonder if it really needs to be anywhere. It itself doesn't
seem to have many developers, probably less users, and heck, last
upstream kernel seems to be from 2016. While it sure has some nice ideas
and concepts in it somewhere, it doesn't seem to go anywhere, at all.
Not just in Debian, but anywhere.

But then, I am not involved in Debian Ports. So no idea. It seems to
exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and is interested
in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.

--
bye, Joerg

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Bernd Zeimetz
In reply to this post by Samuel Thibault-8


On 4/12/19 11:21 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Time will. I will have time later, but that'll be after the Buster
> release, i.e. a *way* less coherent set of packages since a flurry
> of package updates will happen, thus less usable, if installable at
> all. The only alternative I have is to make the release now with the RC
> bugs.

There is no real difference between the normal archive and ports.
Uploads will happen after buster was released. If your binary packages
are built on official debian machines or the debian-ports machines does
not make a big difference.


--
 Bernd Zeimetz                            Debian GNU/Linux Developer
 http://bzed.de                                http://www.debian.org
 GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485  DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Joerg Jaspert
Joerg Jaspert, le ven. 12 avril 2019 23:30:31 +0200, a ecrit:
> On 15370 March 1977, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>
> > > Today we had our regular FTPMaster meeting and discussed hurd and both
> > > kfreebsd architecture and decided to remove them from unstable and
> > > experimental 2 weeks from now.
> > Just before the Buster release? That's far from the easiest timing.
>
> There is never an easy timing.

Sure, but the deep freeze really is a least easy timing.

> [...]
> > within the coming two-three months (I am already struggling to find time
> > to do what I engaged to). Basically, it means no non-official release of
> > Debian Hurd along Buster. Or at best I could just make that non-official
> > release now, with all the still pending RC bugs.
>
> It all depending on the amount of people the above shows (one) is one
> good reason why its not viable.

Again, I'm not talking about moving to debian-ports or not, but about
now really not being a good time. Just after the Buster release would be
completely fine.

Also, "one" is really enough to do the daily ports things. But when
it's about moving the archive, "one" is not enough. It's not the
sustainability of the ports which is at question here, but suddenly
having to fix all kinds of scripts in all kinds of places before Buster
releases. This is a unexpected burst of work that you can not hope to
see resolved by any kind of Debian team.

> > How is the move to debian-ports supposed to happen? I won't have the
> > time to do anything about it within the 2 weeks.
>
> I honestly wonder if it really needs to be anywhere.

It does.

> It itself doesn't seem to have many developers, probably less users,

There aren't many developers and users indeed, but it still does and
moves forward, not backward.

> and heck, last upstream kernel seems to be from 2016.

Releases don't mean anything for such kind of project, just like
projects on github nowadays often don't bother much with doing releases,
they just say "take the master". If you really want a release, let's
just make one. The actual releases that matter are the snapshots I make,
the latest is dated 20190109.

> While it sure has some nice ideas and concepts in it somewhere,
> it doesn't seem to go anywhere, at all.  Not just in Debian, but
> anywhere.

It does. In terms of isolation and flexibility at the same time, Linux
is still lagging behind it, due to its very monolithic nature.

> But then, I am not involved in Debian Ports. So no idea.

Then please don't FUD, that can't help the discussion.

> It seems to exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and
> is interested in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.

Within a two-week timeframe only?

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Bernd Zeimetz
Bernd Zeimetz, le ven. 12 avril 2019 23:32:32 +0200, a ecrit:
> On 4/12/19 11:21 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Time will. I will have time later, but that'll be after the Buster
> > release, i.e. a *way* less coherent set of packages since a flurry
> > of package updates will happen, thus less usable, if installable at
> > all. The only alternative I have is to make the release now with the RC
> > bugs.
>
> There is no real difference between the normal archive and ports.

Sure.

But again, scripts for releasing hurd-i386 Buster images will need to be
fixed in all kinds of places and packages. Experience has taught me that
it takes a lot of time to debunk that kind of thing, which I won't have
until Buster releases.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Samuel Thibault-8
Samuel Thibault, le sam. 13 avril 2019 00:11:15 +0200, a ecrit:
> Joerg Jaspert, le ven. 12 avril 2019 23:30:31 +0200, a ecrit:
> > It seems to exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and
> > is interested in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.
>
> Within a two-week timeframe only?

(while everybody is supposed to be busy fixing RC bugs)

samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Joerg Jaspert
On 15371 March 1977, Samuel Thibault wrote:

>> > It seems to exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and
>> > is interested in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.
>> Within a two-week timeframe only?
> (while everybody is supposed to be busy fixing RC bugs)

I just jumped over old threads - its not actually a new thing what we
discuss now. Its always the same. This next release. Just this one thing
over there, then.

Now, hurd does have double usage (ftp-master and ports) for *years*. And
it never ever moved despite knowing that we want it off.

I don't believe that anything changes just because we wait again.

Also, note, that it is a team decision, not me alone, I am just the
messenger. If you want us to change it, mail the team with the reasons,
and we at least discuss it again. No guarantees on outcome.

--
bye, Joerg

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
Joerg Jaspert, le sam. 13 avril 2019 10:24:53 +0200, a ecrit:
> On 15371 March 1977, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>
> > > > It seems to exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and
> > > > is interested in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.
> > > Within a two-week timeframe only?
> > (while everybody is supposed to be busy fixing RC bugs)
>
> I just jumped over old threads - its not actually a new thing what we
> discuss now.

Sure. But last time we discussed it in september the debian-ports
workload issue wasn't settled.

> It never ever moved despite knowing that we want it off.

Personally, I never took the initiative of doing it because of the
debian-ports workload question.

> I don't believe that anything changes just because we wait again.

What now changed is that we have a deadline, so somehow it will have to
be done. That's the difference.

But the deadline is two-week in the middle of the full freeze...

> Also, note, that it is a team decision, not me alone, I am just the
> messenger.

Sure, no problem with that.

> If you want us to change it, mail the team with the reasons, and we at
> least discuss it again. No guarantees on outcome.

Well, it's very odd that a team decision is suddenly made with a
two-week effect without asking whether the schedule will be fine.

I guess I have to explicitly confirm here that yes, I know that the
decision _whether_ to move is not sudden. Again, I'm talking about the
schedule here. Asking a Debian team to do something time-consuming
within a two-week timeframe in the middle of the full freeze, really...

I won't have the time to discuss with ftpmaster about it in the coming
days anyway.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Svante Signell-2
On Sat, 2019-04-13 at 10:58 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Joerg Jaspert, le sam. 13 avril 2019 10:24:53 +0200, a ecrit:
> > On 15371 March 1977, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> >
>
> Well, it's very odd that a team decision is suddenly made with a
> two-week effect without asking whether the schedule will be fine.
>
> I guess I have to explicitly confirm here that yes, I know that the
> decision _whether_ to move is not sudden. Again, I'm talking about
> the schedule here. Asking a Debian team to do something time-
> consuming within a two-week timeframe in the middle of the full
> freeze, really...
>
> I won't have the time to discuss with ftpmaster about it in the
> coming days anyway.

Samuel,

Please give up on Debian. They clearly have no interest in anything
non-linux or non-systemd, that is fully clear. Let's make a joint
effort to make a Guix release of Hurd (and kFreeBSD) happen. Or, if you
still want to continue using apt-style distributions, join Devuan.
Please, don't support the non-universal OS movement driven by Debian
people!

Thanks!


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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Samuel Thibault-8
On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 09:31:46AM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Samuel Thibault, le sam. 13 avril 2019 00:11:15 +0200, a ecrit:
> > Joerg Jaspert, le ven. 12 avril 2019 23:30:31 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > It seems to exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and
> > > is interested in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.
> > Within a two-week timeframe only?
> (while everybody is supposed to be busy fixing RC bugs)

would 6 weeks work be better for you? I can see how the ftpteam doesnt want
to delay this *after* the Buster release, but maybe they can agree on
giving you a bit more time, so you can a.) still do the move and b.) not
neglect polishing buster for https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
               holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
       PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Carsten Schoenert
In reply to this post by Svante Signell-2
Am 13.04.19 um 11:15 schrieb Svante Signell:

> Please give up on Debian. They clearly have no interest in anything
> non-linux or non-systemd, that is fully clear. Let's make a joint
> effort to make a Guix release of Hurd (and kFreeBSD) happen. Or, if you
> still want to continue using apt-style distributions, join Devuan.
> Please, don't support the non-universal OS movement driven by Debian
> people!

I can't follow that style of discussion. You seems to really want to not
accept some facts about the kFreeBSD and Hurd architectures.
On the one hand you complaining about Debian is a *non*-universal OS, on
the other side I haven't seen a broader supporting from the people who
wanting these architectures to stay in Debian on some important
packages. Please stop to complain on non specific things and start to
solve the problems you see or have! You know: Someone means YOU, it's
all up to the people to keep things running.
Or simply move over to other projects were you feel more comfortable
with. There is enough space for all of us.

Both architectures haven't seen any major development in the past years
and for me as a maintainer of packages the workload on supporting these
architectures between the new upstream releases costs a lot of time with
no real gain in the end as the build dependencies later can not be
fulfilled or most of the time while importing new source I'm working on
readjust the patch queue!

So I disagree on "One person is enough" as long this one person can not
keep track on all the required main and corner cases so other
maintainers get to do the workload here alone.

--
Regards
Carsten Schoenert

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Svante Signell-2
That kind of mail is useless.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
Samuel Thibault, le sam. 13 avril 2019 11:57:20 +0200, a ecrit:
> That kind of mail is useless.

I actually meant: it is also harmful.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Carsten Schoenert
Carsten Schoenert, le sam. 13 avril 2019 11:51:51 +0200, a ecrit:
> > Please give up on Debian. They clearly have no interest in anything
> > non-linux or non-systemd, that is fully clear. Let's make a joint
> > effort to make a Guix release of Hurd (and kFreeBSD) happen. Or, if you
> > still want to continue using apt-style distributions, join Devuan.
> > Please, don't support the non-universal OS movement driven by Debian
> > people!
>
> I can't follow that style of discussion.

Please don't, Svante is only trolling here, please don't feed him.

> I haven't seen a broader supporting from the people who wanting these
> architectures to stay in Debian on some important packages.

I can only agree. I hear a lot of people saying that the Hurd port
existing is a great thing, but a lot less people helping with it.

(I do thank all the people who work on it without necessarily being
noticed).

> Both architectures haven't seen any major development in the past years

They have.

> for me as a maintainer of packages the workload on supporting these
> architectures between the new upstream releases costs a lot of time

Patching software should be handled upstream indeed.

> So I disagree on "One person is enough"

I meant only for the Debian-specific things, I am the only DD who
currently uses its key for signing packages, making CD images, etc.
That's what I meant by "the daily ports things".

For the non-Debian-specific things like patching packages, I am
thankfully really not alone, and I completely agree it can't be a
one-person thing.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Svante Signell-2
In reply to this post by Carsten Schoenert
On Sat, 2019-04-13 at 11:51 +0200, Carsten Schoenert wrote:

> Am 13.04.19 um 11:15 schrieb Svante Signell:
>
> > Please give up on Debian. They clearly have no interest in anything
> > non-linux or non-systemd, that is fully clear. Let's make a joint
> > effort to make a Guix release of Hurd (and kFreeBSD) happen. Or, if
> > you
> > still want to continue using apt-style distributions, join Devuan.
> > Please, don't support the non-universal OS movement driven by
> > Debian people!
>
>
> Both architectures haven't seen any major development in the past
> years

Yes they have, see for example Samuels answer on the latest Hurd
release: 20190109!

> So I disagree on "One person is enough" as long this one person can
> not keep track on all the required main and corner cases so other
> maintainers get to do the workload here alone.

Have you seen this? Look at the age of these bugs. Note also that
several bugs have patches attached to them. Debian maintainers just
don't want to help with non-linux bugs. So your complaint is not valid
at all.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?users=debian-hurd@...;tag=hurd


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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Holger Levsen-2
Holger Levsen, le sam. 13 avril 2019 09:50:25 +0000, a ecrit:
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 09:31:46AM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Samuel Thibault, le sam. 13 avril 2019 00:11:15 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > Joerg Jaspert, le ven. 12 avril 2019 23:30:31 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > > It seems to exist there, so probably someone who can upload there and
> > > > is interested in hurd-i386 goes and uploads stuff.
> > > Within a two-week timeframe only?
> > (while everybody is supposed to be busy fixing RC bugs)
>
> would 6 weeks work be better for you?

It's actually exactly the time frame I still can not afford due to
personal scheduling that I can't do anything about.

> I can see how the ftpteam doesnt want to delay this *after* the Buster
> release,

Ok, if it can't be after Buster releases because e.g. ftpmaster wants to
clean the archive before it, the discussion is moot, I can just make the
non-official Hurd release this week (since the scripts currently work
it's really quick to do) with the RC bugs, and we can make the move and
let scripts etc. be broken for a couple of months until I have time to
fix them back.

Samuel

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Re: Hurd-i386 and kfreebsd-{i386,amd64} removal

Samuel Thibault-8
In reply to this post by Svante Signell-2
Svante Signell, le sam. 13 avril 2019 12:13:41 +0200, a ecrit:
> On Sat, 2019-04-13 at 11:51 +0200, Carsten Schoenert wrote:
> > So I disagree on "One person is enough" as long this one person can
> > not keep track on all the required main and corner cases so other
> > maintainers get to do the workload here alone.
>
> Have you seen this? Look at the age of these bugs. Note also that
> several bugs have patches attached to them.

He rightfully means he does not want patches, but patches getting
submitted upstream, so he does not have to maintain them. A Debian
package maintainer is not supposed to maintain patches long-term.

Really, this was already discussed in the past, can't you just accept
it?

Samuel

12