I resigned in 2004

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I resigned in 2004

Matthew Wilcox-3

I quit Debian development back in 2004.  This was a moral decision, based
on the malfeasance of the project secretary over the "Editorial changes"
GR.

For some reason, Debian as a project failed to notice that I had quit,
even though my [hidden email] email address was deliberately forwarded
to a non-functional email address (in part because of the complete
catastrophe that was the Debian spam filtering system at the time).

Over the last couple of months, the MIA team has been trying to get me to
participate in some inane bureaucracy.  I have been ignoring their emails.
Today, they took it to a new level by encouraging everybody who knows
me to pester me to answer my emails from them.  This is not acceptable.

Leave me alone.  Your project left me long ago.  Do not contact me with
regard to Debian bullshit.

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Mattia Rizzolo-5
Hi,

On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 10:56:57AM -0800, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> For some reason, Debian as a project failed to notice that I had quit,

Probably because even at that time there were procedures that weren't
followed, and apparently nobody after then bothered to check your status
*and* follow up appropiately to clean it up.

> even though my [hidden email] email address was deliberately forwarded
> to a non-functional email address (in part because of the complete
> catastrophe that was the Debian spam filtering system at the time).

I don't know what happened back then to your forwarding address (for
however strange your statement looks to me), so I can't quite comment
here.

> Over the last couple of months, the MIA team has been trying to get me to
> participate in some inane bureaucracy.  I have been ignoring their emails.

I can say that the MIA team didn't try to get you recently.  That was
Jonathan McDowell that apparently was in contact with you and -according
to the note he left- started on 2018-08-25 the process¹ to have you
properly retire. Missing the required follow up from your side² I sent
a follow up on 2018-09-30 completely out of curtesy as from my side it
just seemed like you missed the mail but you were interested in cleaning
your position.

> Today, they took it to a new level by encouraging everybody who knows
> me to pester me to answer my emails from them.  This is not acceptable.

Today, more than two months after Jonathan started the process, I
proceed to follow the "remove" route instead of the "retire" route,
which triggers an email in debian-private@.

> Leave me alone.  Your project left me long ago.  Do not contact me with
> regard to Debian bullshit.

ACK, we will have DAM remove you instead of retire.  I suppose there is
no harm as you don't seem interested in the "benefits" that the
"retired" DDs have over the "removed" ones.
I'm sorry to have bothered you more than necessary.


Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!



¹ https://nm.debian.org/process/539
² which would have consisted in following one link in that mail, and
  then click a single other button; really, nothing more

--
regards,
                        Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540      .''`.
more about me:  https://mapreri.org                             : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri                  `. `'`
Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Matthew Wilcox-3
On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 09:29:30PM +0100, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:

I would like to start by highlighting one very important line from my
last email to you:

> > Do not contact me with regard to Debian bullshit.

And yet, you did.  Fuck you.  Do not contact me again.  I shall consider
any further contact (from you or anyone else in regards to this matter)
as harassment, and I shall seek legal counsel.

Your email is full of self-justifications and I have not the slightest
interest in refuting any of them.  You are a computer programmer
pretending to be an HR department.  You are no good at it.  You have
to appreciate that I owe you nothing.  You don't pay me.  It is not
incumbent on me to do anything for you.  Get a professional to review
your procedures, because your procedures are completely inadequate.

Causing people who I consider my friends to harass me to do something
I find incredibly difficult and painful to do is not OK.  You've made
them complicit in hurting me.  You've dragged up some awful memories
from *fourteen* years ago, when I was betrayed by people who I thought
were my friends.

I don't care that you didn't do it on purpose.  You've hurt me.  And
you made my friends hurt me.  Again.

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by Mattia Rizzolo-5
Quoting Mattia Rizzolo (2018-11-09 21:29:30)
[a range of fine details snipped]
> Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!

Thank you, Mattia.  I found above to be a decent and polite post when I
read it yesterday.

Today after reading that other response I felt the need to share my
impression.


Have a pleasant day,

 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Mathias Behrle-8
* Jonas Smedegaard: " Re: I resigned in 2004" (Sat, 10 Nov 2018 11:25:42 +0100):

> Quoting Mattia Rizzolo (2018-11-09 21:29:30)
> [a range of fine details snipped]
> > Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!  
>
> Thank you, Mattia.  I found above to be a decent and polite post when I
> read it yesterday.
>
> Today after reading that other response I felt the need to share my
> impression.
>
>
> Have a pleasant day,
>
>  - Jonas
Dear Mattia,

big thanks to you for your precious work in the MIA team, this conversation is
surely the unpleasant side of your task. Nothing more to add to Jonas' mail,
keep up your good work.

Best,
Mathias


--

    Mathias Behrle
    PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6
    AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71  7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Ian Campbell-5
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
On Sat, 2018-11-10 at 11:25 +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Mattia Rizzolo (2018-11-09 21:29:30)
> [a range of fine details snipped]
> > Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!
>
> Thank you, Mattia.  I found above to be a decent and polite post when I
> read it yesterday.
>
> Today after reading that other response I felt the need to share my
> impression.

I couldn't disagree more. I found it (and very nearly replied to this
affect) to be exactly as Willy characterised it ("full of self-
justifications" etc) and can entirely understand why, under the
circumstances, he should have become even more upset having received
it. To respond to the initial mail in that fashion was _incredibly_
tone deaf.

I think the MIA team need to understand that some people who have left
Debian may not want to be involved in any kind of retirement process,
for whatever reason, and to simply honour those wishes (which in this
case were made *very* clear) by just dropping it instead of continuing
to poke at it or try to justify actions up to the point where it
becomes clear they do not wish to be involved.

There is absolutely no value here to Debian having the last word and/or
being "technically in the right in having follow our procedures". The
maximum response which I would consider to have been acceptable would
have been:

   ACK, we will have DAM remove you instead of retire. I'm sorry to
   have bothered you more than necessary.

   Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!

and even then I think it would have been better to simply say nothing
at all, in accordance with Willy's wishes.

Ian.


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Re: I resigned in 2004

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting Ian Campbell (2018-11-10 12:01:12)

> On Sat, 2018-11-10 at 11:25 +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Mattia Rizzolo (2018-11-09 21:29:30)
> > [a range of fine details snipped]
> > > Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!
> >
> > Thank you, Mattia.  I found above to be a decent and polite post
> > when I read it yesterday.
> >
> > Today after reading that other response I felt the need to share my
> > impression.
>
> I couldn't disagree more. I found it (and very nearly replied to this
> affect) to be exactly as Willy characterised it ("full of self-
> justifications" etc) and can entirely understand why, under the
> circumstances, he should have become even more upset having received
> it. To respond to the initial mail in that fashion was _incredibly_
> tone deaf.
>
> I think the MIA team need to understand that some people who have left
> Debian may not want to be involved in any kind of retirement process,
> for whatever reason, and to simply honour those wishes (which in this
> case were made *very* clear) by just dropping it instead of continuing
> to poke at it or try to justify actions up to the point where it
> becomes clear they do not wish to be involved.
>
> There is absolutely no value here to Debian having the last word
> and/or being "technically in the right in having follow our
> procedures". The maximum response which I would consider to have been
> acceptable would have been:
>
>    ACK, we will have DAM remove you instead of retire. I'm sorry to
>    have bothered you more than necessary.
>
>    Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!
>
> and even then I think it would have been better to simply say nothing
> at all, in accordance with Willy's wishes.
Thanks, those a good points, and I appreciate your taking the time to
elaborate on them!


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Mattia Rizzolo-5
In reply to this post by Ian Campbell-5
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 11:01:12AM +0000, Ian Campbell wrote:
> I couldn't disagree more. I found it (and very nearly replied to this
> affect) to be exactly as Willy characterised it ("full of self-
> justifications" etc) and can entirely understand why, under the
> circumstances, he should have become even more upset having received
> it. To respond to the initial mail in that fashion was _incredibly_
> tone deaf.

Indeed, I was very bothered.
On the other hand, most of my reply to willy's mail was not addressed to
him, but to debian-devel@ at large, to have everybody else understand
how silly what he did was.  Replying to my email in d-private@ saying
"aye aye, I really want to go away" wold have been *far* more effecting
(even if process-wise I'd have preferred him click the damn buttons we
sent him) and his case would most likely already been closed.
Instead, he decided to throw such a bothersome mail in debian-devel.

My reply indeed had quite a grumpy tone, and I realized only after
sending it, of course.  I need to get into the habit of asking somebody
else to review my emails when they treat such matters.
But at the same time, I consider mine a very polite answer, without any
particularly accusatory wording or anything like that, nor I consider
any of what I wrote worthy of being replied with:
    Fuck you.  Do not contact me again.  I shall consider
    any further contact (from you or anyone else in regards to this matter)
    as harassment, and I shall seek legal counsel.

All I did was dumping a couple of short facts mostly for the benefits of
everybody else reading the ML, and at the same time letting Matthew know
I received and accepted his wishes.  Probably I could have just split
the email in two; I surely didn't know I would upset him so much...

> Debian may not want to be involved in any kind of retirement process,
> for whatever reason, and to simply honour those wishes (which in this
> case were made *very* clear) by just dropping it instead of continuing
> to poke at it or try to justify actions up to the point where it
> becomes clear they do not wish to be involved.

We have been working quite a lot in this direction.  All we ask to
people is to let know d-private@ in some way —possibly authenticated—
that they want to go away.  I don't think this is too much to ask, and I
will actually keep arguing over and over if anybody else try to argue
against this point.


Also, indeed I'm not an HRM person, but I believe that anybody whose
heavy emotions from events as old as 14 years before are triggered to
the point Matthew Wilcox's were by some simple emails, should seek
professional psychological counseling.

> There is absolutely no value here to Debian having the last word and/or
> being "technically in the right in having follow our procedures".

The value is in to avoid situations (that have happened) were people
came to [hidden email] saying things like "wow I discovered I've been removed
[not necessarily from the project, ISTR even people realizing only years
later that their 1024D key was really removed from the keyring and not
realizing they couldn't do anything anymore] X months/years ago, what
should I do".
I find such occurrences to be scary.  We have procedures in places to
try to limit them, procedures that have been communicated to the
projects, and that if you don't know of them the only reason I could
believe of is that you explicitly refused to be ignore.
Exceptions exists, this is not one.  He rage quit without anyone of
those in charge 14 years ago realizing, that's his fault for how I see
it.  Now we are cleaning up and we asking him what he wanted to do,
there is nothing wrong with this.  He choose to ignore our emails, fine.
We went ahead and decided to remove him, he said yes.  Cool, nothing
more.  I don't think there is anything wrong with what happened, except
the tone of his mails and this annoyingly long email I'm writing.

> The
> maximum response which I would consider to have been acceptable would
> have been:
>
>    ACK, we will have DAM remove you instead of retire. I'm sorry to
>    have bothered you more than necessary.
>
>    Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!
>
> and even then I think it would have been better to simply say nothing
> at all, in accordance with Willy's wishes.
Erm.  Again, if one can't deal with such emails, you should really seek
help and support elsewhere, IMHO.
It was not my choice to have him spammed by his friends, that was his
choice when he decided to ignore the emails he admitted to have ignored;
he could have clicked that button and all he could have seen would have
been a couple of automated emails, saving himself a lot of grief.  I
don't feel any "guilt" here, sorry.

--
regards,
                        Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540      .''`.
more about me:  https://mapreri.org                             : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri                  `. `'`
Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Dominik George-7
>But at the same time, I consider mine a very polite answer, without any
>particularly accusatory wording or anything like that, nor I consider
>any of what I wrote worthy of being replied with:
>    Fuck you.  Do not contact me again.  I shall consider
>any further contact (from you or anyone else in regards to this matter)
>    as harassment, and I shall seek legal counsel.

Exactly what I thought. If you come up with such directly insulting words, you probably are in no position to judge others. This reaction, to some extent, suggests that the person does not understand any other tone than what Mattia used.

I am thus very happy that this DD is leaving immediately - whether you see this as bureaucracy or not, he agreed with rules and processes when he joined, he agreed with the CoC, and he deliberately chose to break quite a number of them.

-nik

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Joseph Herlant-2
In reply to this post by Mattia Rizzolo-5
Hi,

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 6:32 AM Mattia Rizzolo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It was not my choice to have him spammed by his friends, that was his
> choice when he decided to ignore the emails he admitted to have ignored;
> he could have clicked that button and all he could have seen would have
> been a couple of automated emails, saving himself a lot of grief.  I
> don't feel any "guilt" here, sorry.

Honestly I think you made the right choice to stick to the process and
make sure he wanted to never deal with Debian stuffs anymore.
Sometimes emails get lost in the mass of other emails and you find
yourself in an embarrassing position, just because you didn't see it
so perseverance is good.

Whatever happened 14 years ago have obviously been traumatic to him
and I'm hopping he'll get over it. Such violent reaction makes me
think he could get help to do that. Everybody deserves happiness after
all.

Anyway, keep up the good work! :)

Joseph

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Iustin Pop-3
In reply to this post by Mattia Rizzolo-5
On 2018-11-10 15:31:31, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
> Also, indeed I'm not an HRM person, […]

And especially because of that, thank you very much for your work.

> I don't feel any "guilt" here, sorry.

And neither should you.

thanks,
iustin

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Filippo Rusconi-3
In reply to this post by Mattia Rizzolo-5
Greetings Fellow Debianites,

On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 09:29:30PM +0100, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:

>Hi,
>
>On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 10:56:57AM -0800, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
>> For some reason, Debian as a project failed to notice that I had quit,
>
>Probably because even at that time there were procedures that weren't
>followed, and apparently nobody after then bothered to check your status
>*and* follow up appropiately to clean it up.
>
>> even though my [hidden email] email address was deliberately forwarded
>> to a non-functional email address (in part because of the complete
>> catastrophe that was the Debian spam filtering system at the time).
>
>I don't know what happened back then to your forwarding address (for
>however strange your statement looks to me), so I can't quite comment
>here.
>
>> Over the last couple of months, the MIA team has been trying to get me to
>> participate in some inane bureaucracy.  I have been ignoring their emails.
>
>I can say that the MIA team didn't try to get you recently.  That was
>Jonathan McDowell that apparently was in contact with you and -according
>to the note he left- started on 2018-08-25 the process¹ to have you
>properly retire. Missing the required follow up from your side² I sent
>a follow up on 2018-09-30 completely out of curtesy as from my side it
>just seemed like you missed the mail but you were interested in cleaning
>your position.
>
>> Today, they took it to a new level by encouraging everybody who knows
>> me to pester me to answer my emails from them.  This is not acceptable.
>
>Today, more than two months after Jonathan started the process, I
>proceed to follow the "remove" route instead of the "retire" route,
>which triggers an email in debian-private@.
>
>> Leave me alone.  Your project left me long ago.  Do not contact me with
>> regard to Debian bullshit.
>
>ACK, we will have DAM remove you instead of retire.  I suppose there is
>no harm as you don't seem interested in the "benefits" that the
>"retired" DDs have over the "removed" ones.
>I'm sorry to have bothered you more than necessary.
>
>
>Good bye, and thank you for your contributions you made back then!
>
>
>
https://nm.debian.org/process/539
>² which would have consisted in following one link in that mail, and
>  then click a single other button; really, nothing more
>
>--
>regards,
>                        Mattia Rizzolo
>
>GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540      .''`.
>more about me:  https://mapreri.org                             : :'  :
>Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri                  `. `'`
>Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-

+1 !

Cheers,
Fiilppo

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Filippo Rusconi, PhD
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   Scientist at CNRS
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀   Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀  http://msxpertsuite.org
          http://www.debian.org

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Ben Hutchings-3
In reply to this post by Mattia Rizzolo-5
On Sat, 2018-11-10 at 15:31 +0100, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 11:01:12AM +0000, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > I couldn't disagree more. I found it (and very nearly replied to this
> > affect) to be exactly as Willy characterised it ("full of self-
> > justifications" etc) and can entirely understand why, under the
> > circumstances, he should have become even more upset having received
> > it. To respond to the initial mail in that fashion was _incredibly_
> > tone deaf.
>
> Indeed, I was very bothered.
> On the other hand, most of my reply to willy's mail was not addressed to
> him, but to debian-devel@ at large, to have everybody else understand
> how silly what he did was.
[...]

This is the problem.  Whether or not it's "silly", that doesn't justify
making a public example of someone.

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
Kids!  Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous.  Do not attempt it
in your own home. - Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, `Good Omens'



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Re: I resigned in 2004

Laura Arjona Reina-4
In reply to this post by Matthew Wilcox-3
Dear Mattia,
Thanks for your work in the Debian MIA team.

For the Debian Anti Harassment team,
--
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Russ Allbery-2
In reply to this post by Mattia Rizzolo-5
Mattia Rizzolo <[hidden email]> writes:

> Indeed, I was very bothered.

> On the other hand, most of my reply to willy's mail was not addressed to
> him, but to debian-devel@ at large, to have everybody else understand
> how silly what he did was.  Replying to my email in d-private@ saying
> "aye aye, I really want to go away" wold have been *far* more effecting
> (even if process-wise I'd have preferred him click the damn buttons we
> sent him) and his case would most likely already been closed.

> Instead, he decided to throw such a bothersome mail in debian-devel.

The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that if
someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we should do
what we can to never contact them again.  (We're probably not organized
enough to guarantee we'll succeed in this, but we can make the attempt.)
Pretty much however obnoxiously they make that statement, to me that's
sort of a "magic phrase," and unless there's some legal or emergency
reason why we *absolutely* have to contact them, I'd just stop talking to
them completely and take whatever default actions we would take if we had
never been able to contact them again.

To be clear, I think his reply was unnecessarily nasty, and I greatly
appreciate the work that you're doing.  This is not intended as any sort
of dissatisfaction with your work, just a suggestion for if this comes up
again.

--
Russ Allbery ([hidden email])               <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Wouter Verhelst
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:07:36PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:

> Mattia Rizzolo <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > Indeed, I was very bothered.
>
> > On the other hand, most of my reply to willy's mail was not addressed to
> > him, but to debian-devel@ at large, to have everybody else understand
> > how silly what he did was.  Replying to my email in d-private@ saying
> > "aye aye, I really want to go away" wold have been *far* more effecting
> > (even if process-wise I'd have preferred him click the damn buttons we
> > sent him) and his case would most likely already been closed.
>
> > Instead, he decided to throw such a bothersome mail in debian-devel.
>
> The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that if
> someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we should do
> what we can to never contact them again.

+1. This was a *very* clear message, in that respect, although I
certainly agree that it wasn't necessary to phrase it quite in that way.
A single sentence saying "message received", if at all, would have been
more than enough; the OP clearly wasn't interested in *why* Debian was
contacting him again after fourteen years, and any explanation to that
effect would only be a nuisance to him, anyway.

--
To the thief who stole my anti-depressants: I hope you're happy

  -- seen somewhere on the Internet on a photo of a billboard

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Wouter Verhelst
In reply to this post by Dominik George-7
On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> I am thus very happy that this DD is leaving immediately - whether you see
> this as bureaucracy or not, he agreed with rules and processes when he
> joined,

There were *far* fewer of them when he did. In 2000, you didn't need an
advocate, and the NM process was very new, and very much ad hoc still.

> he agreed with the CoC,

He did not, the CoC didn't exist yet 14 years ago.

> and he deliberately chose to break quite a number of them.

Given the context that he described -- the so-called "editorial changes"
GR, I can quite understand that. That GR was quite upsetting to a large
number of people -- myself included -- and plenty of people chose to
quit the project rather than be a part of a project that allows people
to be deceived in this manner. That was a breach of trust for some
people, and given that, why would you want to care about any of the
procedures anymore?

If you weren't around at the time, I strongly suggest you research that
a bit.

Even so, I do agree with the claim that his mail was overly aggressive,
and that that wasn't really necessary.

--
To the thief who stole my anti-depressants: I hope you're happy

  -- seen somewhere on the Internet on a photo of a billboard

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Dominik George-7
> > he agreed with the CoC,
>
> He did not, the CoC didn't exist yet 14 years ago.

He did, if not before, when he sent his mail to a mailing list
@lists.debian.org.

He might not have realised that, of course.

-nik

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Carsten Leonhardt
In reply to this post by Russ Allbery-2
Russ Allbery <[hidden email]> writes:

> The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that if
> someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we should do
> what we can to never contact them again.

If the message would be signed I'd agree, but for a non-signed message
that would open abuse potential. I wouldn't like to find out I've been
retired from Debian because someone faked a message like that in my
name...

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Re: I resigned in 2004

Roberto C. Sánchez-2
In reply to this post by Dominik George-7
On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 03:38:32PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> > > he agreed with the CoC,
> >
> > He did not, the CoC didn't exist yet 14 years ago.
>
> He did, if not before, when he sent his mail to a mailing list
> @lists.debian.org.
>
> He might not have realised that, of course.
>
I don't think that you can claim that the act of sending a mail to a
list @lists.debian.org can constitute an implied agreement to accept and
abide by the code of conduct.  That is no different than "by reading
this, you are bound by these terms."  No reasonable person would
consider either of those things valid.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sánchez

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