Insidious systemd

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Insidious systemd

Bartek
Hi, all!

Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I searched
for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good:  No desktop
environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and single
lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  Imagine my surprise when
during the simulated install (I always check), I discovered systemd
init was set to replace sysvinit.  I had converted Stretch to the
latter during its install last year, but left the systemd libraries.

There was no mention of this wicd caveat or any systemd dependency
anywhere.  Obviously, there were.  What other things does systemd do
that users are unaware and contrary to their wishes?  I wonder . . .

After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
better?   I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done
it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so
much the better.

Thanks for any input.

B

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Re: Insidious systemd

bw-2
In-Reply-To: <20190526184906.15e6b3b3@debian9>

...
>After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
>install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
>better?   I could just go with iwconfig or iw?

I never heard of wifi-radar, thanks I might check it out.  With
a windowmananger (fluxbox) on stretch for a laptop that might move around
I used this as a starting point:

https://xrunhprof.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/setup-wpa_gui-and-roaming-on-debian/

There's really not much need for a gui app, so basically I just use a
script to run 'wpa_cli enable all' when I want to connect to the several
known ap I use.  For adding a new network, sometimes it's easier to use
the interactive interface, but adding them to the wpa_supplicant.conf
is pretty easy, it's up to you.

I really have no idea why installing wicd would replace sysvinit-core with
systemd-sysv.  I don't have a sysvinit system setup to test that install,
and you didn't show the output from the apt command you had a problem
with, so I'm thinking maybe you want to start another systemd thread for
whatever reason... ?

It might be a bug if wicd requires systemd as init? but I have not
researched the issue. I think it's a lot of work for little gain
to fight the way things are.  Systemd is here, it has been working fine
for yrs.  It is the default init for debian.  I really dont see why you
would say it is 'insidiuous' because it is widely known to be this way.

Good Luck

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by Bartek
Quoting Patrick Bartek (2019-05-27 03:49:06)
> Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I
> searched for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good: No
> desktop environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and
> single lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.

[ unneeded systemd details snipped ]

> After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something better?  
> I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done it
> before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so much
> the better.

Here are the options I know of which provides a UI with wifi strength
and being more lightweight than network-manager, listed in order of
personal preference for install on Buster (some, iwd in particular, is
notably less mature on Stretch):

iwd is extremely lightweight console-only tool yet provides interactive
probing of wifi strength.  It integrates fine with network-manager and
systemd if a) explicitly telling those systems to use it and b)
explicitly turned off wpasupplicant.

connman is in my experience more reliable than wicd but looks ugly.

wicd felt unreliable in my experience - but possibly I didn't give it
enough attention (see above about disabling wpasupplicant).

iw + wifi-radar if all else fails. :-)


 - Jonas


P.S. At first I skipped this excellent question due to it being
presented as a rant about systemd.  I dearly recommend to _avoid_ mixing
rants with questions, as you then are more likely to miss valuable
input.

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: Insidious systemd

Richard Owlett-3
In reply to this post by bw-2
On 05/26/2019 10:05 PM, bw wrote:
> [snip]
>
> It might be a bug if wicd requires systemd as init? but I have not
> researched the issue. I think it's a lot of work for little gain
> to fight the way things are.  Systemd is here, it has been working fine
> for yrs.  It is the default init for debian.  I really dont see why you
> would say it is 'insidiuous' because it is widely known to be this way.

Synonyms for insidious include subtle, seductive, treacherous; but
apparently not secret nor unknown.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insidious




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Re: Insidious systemd

bw-2
In reply to this post by Bartek
In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>

>Synonyms for insidious include subtle, seductive, treacherous; but
>apparently not secret nor unknown.
>
>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insidious

As far as definitions go, I was referring to the latin, which definitely
implies secrecy. After all what good would an ambush be if it was not
unknown?
https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=insidious
"...from a Latin word for "ambush" (insidiae)..."

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Re: Insidious systemd

bw-2
In reply to this post by Bartek
In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>

Here's further argument that computer programs are not capable of being
insidious.  Using the word this way is IMO incorrect, but then most of the
world is stuck in misuse of language.  

Let's go the whole nine yards, and agree to toe the line when it come to
trying to right this ship, or we may all fall off the wagon?

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=anthropomorphism
https://literarydevices.net/hyperbole/

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Re: Insidious systemd

Bartek
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019 09:58:50 +0300
Ivan Ivanov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could switch to Devuan - it's like a Debian but without this
> SystemD crap of 1.2 million code lines.
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-1.2-Million

I am aware of Devuan, but at the time I installed Stretch (about a
year ago after long term support of Wheezy ceased), Devuan ASCII was not
ready. Plus, I was wary of Devuan's support. That opinion has changed
since ASCII's release.

Thanks for your input.

B

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019 09:29:46 +0200
Jonas Smedegaard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting Patrick Bartek (2019-05-27 03:49:06)
> > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I
> > searched for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good: No
> > desktop environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and
> > single lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  
>
> [ unneeded systemd details snipped ]
>
> > After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> > install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something better?  
> > I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done it
> > before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so much
> > the better.  
>
> Here are the options I know of which provides a UI with wifi strength
> and being more lightweight than network-manager, listed in order of
> personal preference for install on Buster (some, iwd in particular, is
> notably less mature on Stretch):
>
> iwd is extremely lightweight console-only tool yet provides interactive
> probing of wifi strength.  It integrates fine with network-manager and
> systemd if a) explicitly telling those systems to use it and b)
> explicitly turned off wpasupplicant.
>
> connman is in my experience more reliable than wicd but looks ugly.
>
> wicd felt unreliable in my experience - but possibly I didn't give it
> enough attention (see above about disabling wpasupplicant).
>
> iw + wifi-radar if all else fails. :-)
>
>
>  - Jonas
>
>
> P.S. At first I skipped this excellent question due to it being
> presented as a rant about systemd.  I dearly recommend to _avoid_ mixing
> rants with questions, as you then are more likely to miss valuable
> input.

My post WAS initially a report of anamolous behavior during
an install.  I had read of other systemd quirks.  (If no one knows, how
can it be fixed?)  The last paragraph asking for network manager
recommendations other than wicd was an afterthought.  You are correct:
I should have made it two posts.

B


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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
In-Reply-To: <20190527090258.213ecf5a@debian9>

>From: Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
>My post WAS initially a report of anamolous behavior during
>an install.  I had read of other systemd quirks.  (If no one knows, how
>can it be fixed?)  The last paragraph asking for network manager
>recommendations other than wicd was an afterthought.  You are correct:
>I should have made it two posts.

Not so much a report of anomolous behavior by your computer, but an
anomolous setup, since you have "converted" stretch in a way that you
don't explain.  You also still haven't shown the apt output that made you
believe installing wicd tempts systemd to behave insidiuously...

You say you have read of other systemd quirks.  Like what?  I'd suspect
you have been flirting with disaster and trying to figure out if you can
totally remove it?  

Isn't it possibly insidious of you to not provide any details in your post
after creating an inflammatory title for it?

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Re: Insidious systemd

deloptes-2
In reply to this post by Bartek
Patrick Bartek wrote:

>> You could switch to Devuan - it's like a Debian but without this
>> SystemD crap of 1.2 million code lines.
>> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-1.2-Million
>
> I am aware of Devuan, but at the time I installed Stretch (about a
> year ago after long term support of Wheezy ceased), Devuan ASCII was not
> ready. Plus, I was wary of Devuan's support. That opinion has changed
> since ASCII's release.
>
> Thanks for your input.

depending on how systemd free you want to be - I use

sysv-rc
sysvinit-core
sysvinit-utils

which automatically makes old init the default init, which is the most
important part. I don't mind systemd staying around.



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Re: lightweight wifi UI

Mart van de Wege
In reply to this post by bw-2
bw <[hidden email]> writes:

> In-Reply-To: <20190527090258.213ecf5a@debian9>
>
>>From: Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
>>My post WAS initially a report of anamolous behavior during
>>an install.  I had read of other systemd quirks.  (If no one knows, how
>>can it be fixed?)  The last paragraph asking for network manager
>>recommendations other than wicd was an afterthought.  You are correct:
>>I should have made it two posts.
>
> Not so much a report of anomolous behavior by your computer, but an
> anomolous setup, since you have "converted" stretch in a way that you
> don't explain.  You also still haven't shown the apt output that made you
> believe installing wicd tempts systemd to behave insidiuously...
>
Are we sure it's not libsystemd0 that Patrick is objecting against?
Because that is the only systemd related Depends: in wicd's dependency
chain (pulled in via wicd-daemon -> dbus).

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

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Re: Insidious systemd

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by deloptes-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019 20:25:11 +0200
deloptes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Patrick Bartek wrote:
>
> >> You could switch to Devuan - it's like a Debian but without this
> >> SystemD crap of 1.2 million code lines.
> >> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-1.2-Million 
> >
> > I am aware of Devuan, but at the time I installed Stretch (about a
> > year ago after long term support of Wheezy ceased), Devuan ASCII was not
> > ready. Plus, I was wary of Devuan's support. That opinion has changed
> > since ASCII's release.
> >
> > Thanks for your input.  
>
> depending on how systemd free you want to be - I use
>
> sysv-rc
> sysvinit-core
> sysvinit-utils
>
> which automatically makes old init the default init, which is the most
> important part. I don't mind systemd staying around.

I used the "approved" conversion documented on Debian's web site
somewhere: apt (or apt-get) install sysvinit-core.  The other files you
listed above were installed as dependencies, but I knew they were
needed from my research. The install REMOVED systemd-sysv and put
sysvinit in its place, and did all the conversion stuff.  Totally
automatic. All of systemd's libraries remained along with udev and a
couple others I don't recall.  It freed up about 6 or 7 MB of RAM over a
systemd boot.

I did the conversion on a minimal terminal only system after the
install reboot before installing X, Openbox, etc. to build my final
system.

I haven't checked to see if Buster will be the same.

B  

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019 13:00:37 -0400 (EDT)
bw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <20190527090258.213ecf5a@debian9>
>
> >From: Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
> >My post WAS initially a report of anamolous behavior during
> >an install.  I had read of other systemd quirks.  (If no one knows, how
> >can it be fixed?)  The last paragraph asking for network manager
> >recommendations other than wicd was an afterthought.  You are correct:
> >I should have made it two posts.  
>
> Not so much a report of anomolous behavior by your computer, but an
> anomolous setup, since you have "converted" stretch in a way that you
> don't explain.  You also still haven't shown the apt output that made you
> believe installing wicd tempts systemd to behave insidiuously...

The conversion to sysvinit was the approved method in Debian's own docs:
apt (or apt-get) install sysvinit-core.

On the simulated install of wicd, the only important items were that
systemd-sysv was being INSTALLED and sysvinit-core REMOVED.  That was
good enough for me not to do it. The point is, it shouldn't have
happened at all.

> You say you have read of other systemd quirks.  Like what?  I'd suspect
> you have been flirting with disaster and trying to figure out if you can
> totally remove it?  

I haven't removed all of systemd. Except for systemd-sysv which was
removed by the conversion process, all the systemd libraries remain. I
researched its total removal from places like systemdless.org, etc.,
and discovered all the hoops I'd have to jump through to make it work,
deduced potential problems it would cause, and decided to just use
Debian's "approved" method of replacing systemd as init.  And in the
process, recovered 6 to 7 MB of RAM.

As far as quirks, from my own experience when I initially tested
Stretch (as a late RC in 2017 IIRC) by installing in VirtualBox, and
after installing sysvinit, on update/upgrades,  it would try to
reinstall systemd-sysv. I reinstalled Stretch a couple times thinking I
may be at fault, but after about 2 weeks, it accepted the conversion to
sysvinit and never tried to reinstall systemd-sysv under any
circumstances until now.

As far as what I've read, much of it was on this list both with
Jessie and Stretch: reading/executing sysv scripts incorrectly or not
reading them at all, problems booting, applications not running or
crashing, etc. These are my general recollections.  I wrote much of the
problems off due to infamiliarity with systemd, but some of it at
the time I considered to be systemd immaturity.  

> Isn't it possibly insidious of you to not provide any details in your post
> after creating an inflammatory title for it?

No.  Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.

B

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
In-Reply-To: <20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>

...
>Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
>always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
>nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.

Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the cake.
I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
something like this:

$ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
      apt needs root privileges for real execution.
      Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
      so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree      
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
  cgmanager initscripts insserv libcgmanager0 libglade2-0 libnih-dbus1
libnih1 net-tools
  python-dbus python-gi python-glade2 python-gobject python-wicd startpar
systemd-shim
  sysv-rc wicd-daemon wicd-gtk
Suggested packages:
  bootchart2 python-dbus-dbg python-dbus-doc python-gi-cairo
python-gtk2-doc pm-utils bum
  bootlogd
Recommended packages:
  gksu python-notify
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  systemd-sysv
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  cgmanager initscripts insserv libcgmanager0 libglade2-0 libnih-dbus1
libnih1 net-tools
  python-dbus python-gi python-glade2 python-gobject python-wicd startpar
systemd-shim
  sysv-rc sysvinit-core wicd wicd-daemon wicd-gtk
0 upgraded, 20 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

$ apt policy
Package files:
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     release a=now
 500 http://security.debian.org/debian-security stretch/updates/main amd64
Packages
     release
v=9,o=Debian,a=stable,n=stretch,l=Debian-Security,c=main,b=amd64
     origin security.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian stretch-updates/main amd64 Packages
     release
o=Debian,a=stable-updates,n=stretch-updates,l=Debian,c=main,b=amd64
     origin http.us.debian.org
 500 http://http.us.debian.org/debian stretch/main amd64 Packages
     release v=9.9,o=Debian,a=stable,n=stretch,l=Debian,c=main,b=amd64
     origin http.us.debian.org
Pinned packages:

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

arne
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019 09:29:46 +0200
Jonas Smedegaard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting Patrick Bartek (2019-05-27 03:49:06)
> > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I
> > searched for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good: No
> > desktop environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox
> > and single lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  
>
> [ unneeded systemd details snipped ]
>
> > After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> > install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
> > better? I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've
> > done it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the
> > work, so much the better.  
>
> Here are the options I know of which provides a UI with wifi strength
> and being more lightweight than network-manager, listed in order of
> personal preference for install on Buster (some, iwd in particular,
> is notably less mature on Stretch):
>
> iwd is extremely lightweight console-only tool yet provides
> interactive probing of wifi strength.  It integrates fine with
> network-manager and systemd if a) explicitly telling those systems to
> use it and b) explicitly turned off wpasupplicant.
>
> connman is in my experience more reliable than wicd but looks ugly.
>
> wicd felt unreliable in my experience - but possibly I didn't give it
> enough attention (see above about disabling wpasupplicant).
>
> iw + wifi-radar if all else fails. :-)
>
>
>  - Jonas
>
>
> P.S. At first I skipped this excellent question due to it being
> presented as a rant about systemd.  I dearly recommend to _avoid_
> mixing rants with questions, as you then are more likely to miss
> valuable input.
>
On a headless system I want connection on preferred system, when not
available to another system.
I want this without GUI

I tried wicd and hate networkmanager.

Any hints on cli is welcome!

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Re: Insidious systemd

Felmon Davis-2
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019, bw wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
>
> Here's further argument that computer programs are not capable of being
> insidious.  Using the word this way is IMO incorrect, but then most of the
> world is stuck in misuse of language.

diseases can be insidious. drugs can be insidious. anything that
sneaks up on you posing a threat is 'insidious'.

including computer programs - think viruses.

> Let's go the whole nine yards, and agree to toe the line when it come to
> trying to right this ship, or we may all fall off the wagon?

nice mixed metaphors! "nine yards"/"toe the line"; "right this
ship"/"fall off the wagon". love it!

but language is fluid. but few drown. well, maybe sometimes.

I am not adept at systemd; I seem to have remnants of it on my main
laptop which is sysvinit. need to read up more before I purge. but I
am not adverse to living with systemd either. rock the boat or toe the
line - not sure.

f.

>
> https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=anthropomorphism
> https://literarydevices.net/hyperbole/
>
>

--
Felmon Davis

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by arne
Quoting arne (2019-05-28 04:37:46)

> On Mon, 27 May 2019 09:29:46 +0200
> Jonas Smedegaard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Quoting Patrick Bartek (2019-05-27 03:49:06)
> > > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I
> > > searched for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good: No
> > > desktop environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox
> > > and single lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  
> >
> > [ unneeded systemd details snipped ]
> >
> > > After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> > > install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
> > > better? I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've
> > > done it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the
> > > work, so much the better.  
> >
> > Here are the options I know of which provides a UI with wifi strength
> > and being more lightweight than network-manager, listed in order of
> > personal preference for install on Buster (some, iwd in particular,
> > is notably less mature on Stretch):
> >
> > iwd is extremely lightweight console-only tool yet provides
> > interactive probing of wifi strength.  It integrates fine with
> > network-manager and systemd if a) explicitly telling those systems to
> > use it and b) explicitly turned off wpasupplicant.
> >
> > connman is in my experience more reliable than wicd but looks ugly.
> >
> > wicd felt unreliable in my experience - but possibly I didn't give it
> > enough attention (see above about disabling wpasupplicant).
> >
> > iw + wifi-radar if all else fails. :-)
> >
> >
> >  - Jonas
> >
> >
> > P.S. At first I skipped this excellent question due to it being
> > presented as a rant about systemd.  I dearly recommend to _avoid_
> > mixing rants with questions, as you then are more likely to miss
> > valuable input.
> >
> On a headless system I want connection on preferred system, when not
> available to another system.
> I want this without GUI
>
> I tried wicd and hate networkmanager.
>
> Any hints on cli is welcome!
If you mean wifi device auto-connecting to one or another hotspot
depending on availability, then I think iwd can handle that by first
interactively connecting to each hotspot and then flagging those
connections to permit auto-connecting.

If you mean shuffling between different devices (e.g. use wired when
plugged in otherwise wireless, or use one or another wired connection
across several ethernet devices) then I think simplest is to set them
all to auto-connect concurrently (with systemd with a flag, otherwise
use netplug) and setup their routing priority - the "metric".


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
bw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
>
> ...
> >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.  
>
> Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the cake.
> I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
> something like this:
>
> $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> [snip]

Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.

For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.

B

******************************

root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree      
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
systemd-sysv wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
 ^^^^^^^^^

Suggested packages:
  gconf-defaults-service pinentry-doc ethtool pm-utils

The following packages will be REMOVED:
  sysvinit-core
     ^^^^^^^^
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
systemd-sysv wicd wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
 ^^^^^^^^

0 upgraded, 28 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

Remv sysvinit-core [2.88dsf-59.9] [init:amd64 ]
        ^^^^^^^^

Inst systemd-sysv (232-25+deb9u11 Debian:9.9/stable,Debian-Security:9/stable [amd64])
      ^^^^^^^^^

Inst python-gobject (3.22.0-2 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst net-tools (1.60+git20161116.90da8a0-1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst python-wicd (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst wireless-tools (30~pre9-12+b1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst wicd-daemon (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst dbus-user-session (1.10.26-0+deb9u1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst gconf2 (3.2.6-4+b1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libgck-1-0 (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libgcr-3-common (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst libgcr-base-3-1 (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libgcr-ui-3-1 (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst gcr (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libgnome-keyring-common (3.12.0-1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst libgnome-keyring0 (3.12.0-1+b2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libgtop2-common (2.34.2-1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst libgtop-2.0-10 (2.34.2-1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libgksu2-0 (2.0.13~pre1-9+b1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst gksu (2.0.2-9+b1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst p11-kit-modules (0.23.3-2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst p11-kit (0.23.3-2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst pinentry-gnome3 (1.0.0-2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst gnome-keyring (3.20.0-3 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst libpam-gnome-keyring (3.20.0-3 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst python-notify (0.1.1-4 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst rfkill (0.5-1+b1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Inst wicd-gtk (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Inst wicd (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Conf systemd-sysv (232-25+deb9u11 Debian:9.9/stable,
Debian-Security:9/stable [amd64]) Conf python-gobject (3.22.0-2
Debian:9.9/stable [all]) Conf net-tools (1.60+git20161116.90da8a0-1
Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf python-wicd (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1
Debian:9.9/stable [all]) Conf wireless-tools (30~pre9-12+b1
Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf wicd-daemon (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1
Debian:9.9/stable [all]) Conf dbus-user-session (1.10.26-0+deb9u1
Debian:9.9/stable [all]) Conf gconf2 (3.2.6-4+b1 Debian:9.9/stable
[amd64]) Conf libgck-1-0 (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf libgcr-3-common (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Conf libgcr-base-3-1 (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf libgcr-ui-3-1 (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf gcr (3.20.0-5.1 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf libgnome-keyring-common (3.12.0-1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])
Conf libgnome-keyring0 (3.12.0-1+b2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf libgtop2-common (2.34.2-1 Debian:9.9/stable [all])Conf
gnome-keyring (3.20.0-3 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf
libpam-gnome-keyring (3.20.0-3 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf
python-notify (0.1.1-4 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf rfkill (0.5-1+b1
Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf wicd-gtk (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1
Debian:9.9/stable [all]) Conf wicd (1.7.4+tb2-5~deb9u1
Debian:9.9/stable [all]) Conf libgtop-2.0-10 (2.34.2-1
Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf libgksu2-0 (2.0.13~pre1-9+b1
Debian:9.9/stable [amd64]) Conf gksu (2.0.2-9+b1 Debian:9.9/stable
[amd64]) Conf p11-kit-modules (0.23.3-2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf p11-kit (0.23.3-2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])
Conf pinentry-gnome3 (1.0.0-2 Debian:9.9/stable [amd64])

********************************

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Reco
        Hi.

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 07:10:22AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
> bw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > In-Reply-To: <20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
> >
> > ...
> > >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> > >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> > >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.  
> >
> > Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the cake.
> > I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
> > something like this:
> >
> > $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> > [snip]
>
> Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
>
> For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
> install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
>
> B
>
> root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd

Try this:

# apt install wicd -s -o APT::Install-Recommends="0"

wicd by itself does not require systemd, but it recommends gksu. gksu,
which is kinda-sorta part of GNOME, on the other hand - does.

Reco

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
In-Reply-To: <20190528071022.45725f73@debian9>


Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>

>On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
>bw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In-Reply-To: <[????] 20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
>>
>> ...
>> >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
>> >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
>> >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.  
>>
>> Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the
>cake.
>> I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
>> something like this:
>>
>> $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
>> [snip]
>
>Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
>
>For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
>install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
>
>B
>
>******************************
>
>root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd
>Reading package lists... Done
>Building dependency tree      
>Reading state information... Done
>The following additional packages will be installed:
>  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
>libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
>libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
>libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
>pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
>systemd-sysv wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
>Suggested packages:
>  gconf-defaults-service pinentry-doc ethtool pm-utils
>
>The following packages will be REMOVED:
>  sysvinit-core
>     ^^^^^^^^
>The following NEW packages will be installed:
>  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
>libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
>libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
>libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
>pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
>systemd-sysv wicd wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
> ^^^^^^^^
>
>0 upgraded, 28 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
>
>Remv sysvinit-core [2.88dsf-59.9] [init:amd64 ]
>        ^^^^^^^^
>
>Inst systemd-sysv (232-25+deb9u11
>Debian:9.9/stable,Debian-Security:9/stable [amd64])
>      ^^^^^^^^^
...

In this case, since you allow recommends, it might be either gksu or some
other gnome dependency, or a missing systemd-shim pkg causing this.  Also,
some pkgs rely on either one or theother init, and systemd is default init
as I mentioned.  Nothing nefarious or insidiuous here from what I see.  
Maybe you researched the negative opinions about systemd instead of how to
use it and what is required to replace it?

It's okay, I did that too.  I tried for a few months to avoid it.  
Then finaly I decided the debian way was to try and help fix it, from
a user point of view...

Check it out is my advice, it's not nearly as bad as the devuan fanbois
claim it is.  I like forks and I'm glad sysV is still somewhat usable, but
I have heard threats for awhile now that the sustemd-shim might disappear,
which will maybe break support for many pkgs.

It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.

good luck
123