Insidious systemd

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In-Reply-To: <20190528071022.45725f73@debian9>

ah... sorry, here's the culprit, hard depend on systemd

dbus-user-session

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by Reco
On Tue, 28 May 2019 18:56:44 +0300
Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 07:10:22AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
> > bw <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >  
> > > In-Reply-To: <20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
> > >
> > > ...  
> > > >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> > > >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> > > >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.    
> > >
> > > Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the cake.
> > > I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
> > > something like this:
> > >
> > > $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> > > [snip]  
> >
> > Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
> >
> > For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
> > install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
> >
> > B
> >
> > root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd  
>
> Try this:
>
> # apt install wicd -s -o APT::Install-Recommends="0"

apt/apt-get already by default set NOT to install Recommends, only
dependencies.  And I check before installing anything just to be sure.

I've abandoned wicd and am considering other utilities, wifi-radar
being toward the top of the list.  I may just go commandline since I
only have to configure this home-based box once for wifi.

> wicd by itself does not require systemd, but it recommends gksu. gksu,
> which is kinda-sorta part of GNOME, on the other hand - does.

Due to GNOME's systemd dependency, I avoid with a passion any app,
utility, etc. that is even remotely related to GNOME.

Thanks for your advice.

B

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Reco
On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 09:49:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> On Tue, 28 May 2019 18:56:44 +0300
> Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 07:10:22AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
> > > bw <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >  
> > > > In-Reply-To: <20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
> > > >
> > > > ...  
> > > > >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> > > > >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> > > > >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.    
> > > >
> > > > Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the cake.
> > > > I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
> > > > something like this:
> > > >
> > > > $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> > > > [snip]  
> > >
> > > Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
> > >
> > > For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
> > > install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
> > >
> > > B
> > >
> > > root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd  
> >
> > Try this:
> >
> > # apt install wicd -s -o APT::Install-Recommends="0"
>
> apt/apt-get already by default set NOT to install Recommends, only
> dependencies.  And I check before installing anything just to be sure.

Yet your apt tries to install gksu, and mine does not.


> I've abandoned wicd and am considering other utilities, wifi-radar
> being toward the top of the list.  I may just go commandline since I
> only have to configure this home-based box once for wifi.

wpa_cli and an appropriate wpa_supplicant.conf is more than enough for
my laptop needs. Personally I see any GUI to WiFi as redundant
(aircrack-ng/kismet being an exception), but I suggest you to try
dhcpcd-gtk (GTK2) or wpagui (QT).

Both Notwork Manager and wicd try to do too many things, WiFi being one
of them. Both try to hide the fact that all that you really need is
something for L2 (wpa-supplicant or iwd) and for L3 (any dhcp client).

Both dhcpcd-gtk and wpagui simply try to provide a frontend to
wpa_supplicant.conf without trying to replace your whole network
configuration.

Reco

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Tue, 28 May 2019 12:19:22 -0400 (EDT)
bw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <20190528071022.45725f73@debian9>
>
>
> Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
> >On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
> >bw <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >  
> >> In-Reply-To: <[????] 20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
> >>
> >> ...  
> >> >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> >> >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> >> >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.    
> >>
> >> Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the  
> >cake.  
> >> I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
> >> something like this:
> >>
> >> $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> >> [snip]  
> >
> >Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
> >
> >For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
> >install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
> >
> >B
> >
> >******************************
> >
> >root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd
> >Reading package lists... Done
> >Building dependency tree      
> >Reading state information... Done
> >The following additional packages will be installed:
> >  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
> >libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
> >libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
> >libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
> >pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
> >systemd-sysv wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
> > ^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Suggested packages:
> >  gconf-defaults-service pinentry-doc ethtool pm-utils
> >
> >The following packages will be REMOVED:
> >  sysvinit-core
> >     ^^^^^^^^
> >The following NEW packages will be installed:
> >  dbus-user-session gconf2 gcr gksu gnome-keyring libgck-1-0
> >libgcr-3-common libgcr-base-3-1 libgcr-ui-3-1 libgksu2-0
> >libgnome-keyring-common libgnome-keyring0 libgtop-2.0-10
> >libgtop2-common libpam-gnome-keyring net-tools p11-kit p11-kit-modules
> >pinentry-gnome3 python-gobject python-notify python-wicd rfkill
> >systemd-sysv wicd wicd-daemon wicd-gtk wireless-tools
> > ^^^^^^^^
> >
> >0 upgraded, 28 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
> >
> >Remv sysvinit-core [2.88dsf-59.9] [init:amd64 ]
> >        ^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Inst systemd-sysv (232-25+deb9u11
> >Debian:9.9/stable,Debian-Security:9/stable [amd64])
> >      ^^^^^^^^^  
> ...
>
> In this case, since you allow recommends, it might be either gksu or some
> other gnome dependency, or a missing systemd-shim pkg causing this.  Also,
> some pkgs rely on either one or theother init, and systemd is default init
> as I mentioned.  Nothing nefarious or insidiuous here from what I see.  
> Maybe you researched the negative opinions about systemd instead of how to
> use it and what is required to replace it?

During my initial install of Stretch a year ago, I specifically set
apt/apt-get by default NOT to install Recommends automatically.  I'll
check to see if for some reason unbeknownst to me that's changed.

systemd-shim is present on my system.  When I converted to sysvinit, I
just let apt-get do its thing and I haven't modified what it did since
it worked on that first reboot after conversion.  If anything has been
modified since, it wasn't by my hand.  I'll look into it.

> It's okay, I did that too.  I tried for a few months to avoid it.  
> Then finaly I decided the debian way was to try and help fix it, from
> a user point of view...

I read both sides.  Pro and Con.  Good and Evil.  I'm VERY pragmatic
and thorough.  I tested. Evaluated. Decided: systemd was a behemoth as
an init, too system pervasive and didn't follow the basic Unix
philosophy.  It just tried to do too much, was adopted too soon (before
it was mature enough), and that was a recipe for problems in my
opinion. KISS.

Yes, SystemV is old technology and has its own problems, but since
converting to it was simple, supported, and I was familiar with it, I
decided to go with it. I thought first of installing runit, but that
would have been a bag of snakes at the time.

> Check it out is my advice, it's not nearly as bad as the devuan fanbois
> claim it is.  I like forks and I'm glad sysV is still somewhat usable, but
> I have heard threats for awhile now that the sustemd-shim might disappear,
> which will maybe break support for many pkgs.

I keep up.  It's getting better.  But the problem is apps, etc. having
systemd as a DEPENDENCY.  And that's the programmer's fault. The init
(or any of its parts) regardless of which one it is -- systemd, sysv,
upstart, runit, etc. -- should never be a dependency.  I should be able
to run any init I want without it adversely affecting the system,
the apps, etc.

> It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.

I don't think it's a bug.  Just a dependency issue caused by the way
systemd is designed.

B

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by Reco
On Tue, 28 May 2019 20:39:53 +0300
Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 09:49:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 May 2019 18:56:44 +0300
> > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >  
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 07:10:22AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:  
> > > > On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > bw <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >    
> > > > > In-Reply-To: <20190527163821.6e4b5d95@debian9>
> > > > >
> > > > > ...    
> > > > > >Based on my past experiences and research with systemd, I now
> > > > > >always have do simulated installs with everything just to be sure
> > > > > >nothing untoward happens.  The Subject Title was appropriate.      
> > > > >
> > > > > Patrick, I've seen some baloney in my day, but that prose takes the cake.
> > > > > I think you're full of crap, but you could prove me wrong sort of
> > > > > something like this:
> > > > >
> > > > > $ apt -s install sysvinit-core wicd
> > > > > [snip]    
> > > >
> > > > Unapplicable in my case: sysvinit conversion done a year ago.
> > > >
> > > > For the Doubting Thomas that your are, the output of my simulated
> > > > install -- the salient portions I spoke of highlighted.
> > > >
> > > > B
> > > >
> > > > root@debian9:/home/patrick# apt -s install wicd    
> > >
> > > Try this:
> > >
> > > # apt install wicd -s -o APT::Install-Recommends="0"  
> >
> > apt/apt-get already by default set NOT to install Recommends, only
> > dependencies.  And I check before installing anything just to be sure.  
>
> Yet your apt tries to install gksu, and mine does not.

I'll check.  It could be a dependency of a wicd dependency.  Although,
it's academic: I won't be using wicd.

>
> > I've abandoned wicd and am considering other utilities, wifi-radar
> > being toward the top of the list.  I may just go commandline since I
> > only have to configure this home-based box once for wifi.  
>
> wpa_cli and an appropriate wpa_supplicant.conf is more than enough for
> my laptop needs. Personally I see any GUI to WiFi as redundant
> (aircrack-ng/kismet being an exception), but I suggest you to try
> dhcpcd-gtk (GTK2) or wpagui (QT).

Thanks. I'm getting a new laptop this year which I haven't needed in a
long time.  And I'll install a customized window manager only system on
it like I have on the desk box. So, I haven't kept up with all the wifi
utilities available.

> Both Notwork Manager and wicd try to do too many things, WiFi being one
> of them. Both try to hide the fact that all that you really need is
> something for L2 (wpa-supplicant or iwd) and for L3 (any dhcp client).

Good to know.

> Both dhcpcd-gtk and wpagui simply try to provide a frontend to
> wpa_supplicant.conf without trying to replace your whole network
> configuration.
>

Thanks.  I check it out.

B

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
In-Reply-To: <20190528110506.12328afe@debian9>

Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
...
>I read both sides.  Pro and Con.  Good and Evil.  I'm VERY pragmatic
>and thorough.  I tested. Evaluated. Decided: systemd was a behemoth as
>an init, too system pervasive and didn't follow the basic Unix
>philosophy.  It just tried to do too much, was adopted too soon (before
>it was mature enough), and that was a recipe for problems in my
>opinion. KISS.
<snip>

>I keep up.  It's getting better.  But the problem is apps, etc. having
>systemd as a DEPENDENCY.  And that's the programmer's fault. The init
>(or any of its parts) regardless of which one it is -- systemd, sysv,
>upstart, runit, etc. -- should never be a dependency.  I should be able
>to run any init I want without it adversely affecting the system,
>the apps, etc.
>
>> It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.
>
>I don't think it's a bug.  Just a dependency issue caused by the way
>systemd is designed.

I hear what you are saying, and it all seems pretty accurate.  The thing
that you don't mention is that once you decide to deviate from debian
defaults, you really can't expect anyone else to sympathize too much.  
You have freedom, you chose not to use systemd as init for various
reasons.  SysV is not compatible with some newer stuff.  I don't have the
list, but I have been aware of it for awhile.

You will have to be able to navigate well on your own when you leave the
mapped area.

I don't see how we as users can tell developers what to do.  I don't think
debian has that many developers anyway, they are just packagers, which is
a different skill.  Half the dudes probably have no idea what this stuff
is doing.  To me the reason there are dependencies in the first place is
debian maintainers don't want to figure things out, they just want to pack
it up and get it out the door, complying with whatever policy debian has.  
That's fine with me, because I sure don't want that job.

Once you leave the farm, and get into these alternate setups, it's really
important to report the bugs, because you're on the fringe.  If you fail
to do this, then things could get badly broken in a short time.  Nobody
wants that, but nobody wants a lot of drama over it either...

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Dan Ritter-4
bw wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <20190528110506.12328afe@debian9>
>
> Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
> ...
> >> It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.
> >
> >I don't think it's a bug.  Just a dependency issue caused by the way
> >systemd is designed.
>
> I hear what you are saying, and it all seems pretty accurate.  The thing
> that you don't mention is that once you decide to deviate from debian
> defaults, you really can't expect anyone else to sympathize too much.  
> You have freedom, you chose not to use systemd as init for various
> reasons.  SysV is not compatible with some newer stuff.  I don't have the
> list, but I have been aware of it for awhile.

The one true editor is ed, and all you filthy emacs
and vim users had better convert immediately.

(That was sarcasm. I like vim and I support a lot of emacs
users.)

Debian is not supposed to be a highly opinionated distribution, unless
the opinion is "there should be lots of options".  Claiming that "once
you decide to deviate from debian defaults, you really can't expect
anyone else to sympathize too much" is just... incorrect. In
particular, I expect a reasonable degree of sympathy for anyone
who installs a Debian package from stable/main and doesn't get it
working because of a problem in another stable/main package.


> You will have to be able to navigate well on your own when you leave the
> mapped area.

That's true, but the mapped area is much bigger than you seem to
think it is.

> I don't see how we as users can tell developers what to do.  I don't think
> debian has that many developers anyway, they are just packagers, which is
> a different skill.  Half the dudes probably have no idea what this stuff
> is doing.  To me the reason there are dependencies in the first place is
> debian maintainers don't want to figure things out, they just want to pack
> it up and get it out the door, complying with whatever policy debian has.  
> That's fine with me, because I sure don't want that job.

I think you've just managed to insult every Debian user,
developer and volunteer, while simultaneously being wrong about
the nature of dependencies.

Dependencies are a key requirement of shared libraries, which
are in turn a key enabler of security and productivity. It would
not be going too far to say that well-maintained dependency
resolvers are the backbone of any modern Linux distribution.

Let's consider a very simple case: we have an SSL library, and
it has a bug in it.

Without dependencies, every package that uses the SSL library
needs to maintain and include its own copy. How many is that?
How many people need to coordinate? How many packages will just
skip the update because they missed it, or they're doing
something else, or they are still swamped with other things?

With dependencies, the SSL library maintainer builds, tests, and
sends off the new version; it gets rebuilt automatically; your
system picks it up on the next apt update run... and when you
upgrade, all the packages that use that SSL library get updated
at once.

-dsr-

-dsr-

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Re: Insidious systemd

Liam O'Toole
In reply to this post by Bartek
On 2019-05-27, Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, all!
>
> Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I searched
> for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good:  No desktop
> environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and single
> lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  Imagine my surprise when
> during the simulated install (I always check), I discovered systemd
> init was set to replace sysvinit.  I had converted Stretch to the
> latter during its install last year, but left the systemd libraries.
>
> There was no mention of this wicd caveat or any systemd dependency
> anywhere.  Obviously, there were.  What other things does systemd do
> that users are unaware and contrary to their wishes?  I wonder . . .
>
> After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
> better?   I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done
> it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so
> much the better.
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> B
>
>

Are you trolling? You need to talk to the maintainers of wicd and ask
them why there is a systemd dependency.

--

Liam

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>

>bw wrote:
>>
>> Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
>> ...
>> >> It's a good topic, if you think this is a bug, please report it.
>> >
>> >I don't think it's a bug.  Just a dependency issue caused by the way
>> >systemd is designed.
>>
>> I hear what you are saying, and it all seems pretty accurate.  The
>>thing
>> that you don't mention is that once you decide to deviate from debian
>> defaults, you really can't expect anyone else to sympathize too much.  
>> You have freedom, you chose not to use systemd as init for various
>> reasons.  SysV is not compatible with some newer stuff.  I don't have
>the
>> list, but I have been aware of it for awhile.
>
>The one true editor is ed, and all you filthy emacs
>and vim users had better convert immediately.
>
>(That was sarcasm. I like vim and I support a lot of emacs
>users.)
>
>Debian is not supposed to be a highly opinionated distribution, unless
>the opinion is "there should be lots of options".  Claiming that "once
>you decide to deviate from debian defaults, you really can't expect
>anyone else to sympathize too much" is just... incorrect. In
>particular, I expect a reasonable degree of sympathy for anyone
>who installs a Debian package from stable/main and doesn't get it
>working because of a problem in another stable/main package.
>
>
>> You will have to be able to navigate well on your own when you leave
>>the
>> mapped area.
>
>That's true, but the mapped area is much bigger than you seem to
>think it is.
>
>> I don't see how we as users can tell developers what to do.  I don't
>>think
>> debian has that many developers anyway, they are just packagers, which
>>is
>> a different skill.  Half the dudes probably have no idea what this
>>stuff
>> is doing.  To me the reason there are dependencies in the first place
>>is
>> debian maintainers don't want to figure things out, they just want to
>>pack
>> it up and get it out the door, complying with whatever policy debian
>>has.  
>> That's fine with me, because I sure don't want that job.
>
>I think you've just managed to insult every Debian user,
>developer and volunteer, while simultaneously being wrong about
>the nature of dependencies.
>
>Dependencies are a key requirement of shared libraries, which
>are in turn a key enabler of security and productivity. It would
>not be going too far to say that well-maintained dependency
>resolvers are the backbone of any modern Linux distribution.
>
>Let's consider a very simple case: we have an SSL library, and
>it has a bug in it.
>
>Without dependencies, every package that uses the SSL library
>needs to maintain and include its own copy. How many is that?
>How many people need to coordinate? How many packages will just
>skip the update because they missed it, or they're doing
>something else, or they are still swamped with other things?
>
>With dependencies, the SSL library maintainer builds, tests, and
>sends off the new version; it gets rebuilt automatically; your
>system picks it up on the next apt update run... and when you
>upgrade, all the packages that use that SSL library get updated
>at once.
>
>-dsr-
>
>-dsr-

These are some really great comments Dan, and I'll think about your point
of view.  I've been using debian a little while, and not sure I'd agree
that is is not an opinionated distro.  Maybe it was not supposed to be,
but I have seen quite a few things added or changed in the distro, and
yeah I'm talking pulseaudio, systemd, gnome, firefox/chromium, among
others that make me wonder if anybody is in charge, or do we just get what
upstream puts on the plate or what?

Hundreds of bugs in dozens of packages go unfixed, denied, ignored...
browsers just dumped in the repo and updated like what once every two
weeks now I get 300mb of packages?

It's obvious that we entered some kind of rapid development model a few
yrs ago.  I got systemd installed a few yrs ago on my jessie system, and
had no idea for months that it even existed, or there was a change... now
that maybe was kind of insidious.  But hey, that's water under the bridge,
we are where we are, and where we are is if you are an average user, don't
mess with defaults unless you want to spend a lot of time, and be on your
own doing research sometimes for years to solve your problems.

Just one opinion among many, and you know what they say about opinions.

I sure did not mean to offend, just thinking out loud, take it for what it
is worth.

Thanks,
bw

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Re: Insidious systemd

andy smith-10
In reply to this post by Liam O'Toole
Hello,

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:16:27PM +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> On 2019-05-27, Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I searched
> > for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good:  No desktop
> > environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and single
> > lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  Imagine my surprise when
> > during the simulated install (I always check), I discovered systemd
> > init was set to replace sysvinit.  I had converted Stretch to the
> > latter during its install last year, but left the systemd libraries.

[…]

> Are you trolling? You need to talk to the maintainers of wicd and ask
> them why there is a systemd dependency.

Before bothering developers/maintainers, it would be best to do what
'bw' did elsewhere in this thread and demonstrate that it's most
likely to be because OP is allowing apt to install recommends, and
wicd recommends gksu, which depends on systemd.

OP does claim that their apt already is configured to not install
recommends, but another poster demonstrated that when they forcibly
disable recommends their apt does not try to install gksu, whereas
OP's does. So clarification is pending from OP on this matter.

The phrasing of the question has I think led to some unfortunate
diversions.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 06:03:39PM -0400, bw wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
>
> >bw wrote:

[ Dan Ritter ]
> >Debian is not supposed to be a highly opinionated distribution, unless
> >the opinion is "there should be lots of options".  Claiming that "once
> >you decide to deviate from debian defaults, you really can't expect
> >anyone else to sympathize too much" is just... incorrect [...]

+100

[ bw ]

> These are some really great comments Dan, and I'll think about your point
> of view.  I've been using debian a little while, and not sure I'd agree
> that is is not an opinionated distro.  Maybe it was not supposed to be,
> but I have seen quite a few things added or changed in the distro, and
> yeah I'm talking pulseaudio, systemd, gnome, firefox/chromium, among
> others that make me wonder if anybody is in charge, or do we just get what
> upstream puts on the plate or what?

Let's agree to differ, bw. I am a Debian user since longer than I care
to remember (I think it was Bo I fell in love with, but my brain is
old, so...)

My Debian (stable/stretch) installation has no pulseaudio, no systemd, no
gnome. It is my day-to-day workhorse. It takes anything I throw at it
with a smile.

> Hundreds of bugs in dozens of packages go unfixed, denied, ignored...
> browsers just dumped in the repo and updated like what once every two
> weeks now I get 300mb of packages?

That's normal: Debian is a huge distro. Fixing bugs happens one at a
time. And often, there are human things: differences in opinion, arguments,
sometimes ugly ones. Debian is a social project, i.e. about a lot of
people herding themselves -- and that is difficult. We humans tend to
be a messy bunch.

For a voluntary project, I'd say Debian is doing astoundingly well.

Personally, I don't like every turn Debian has taken, mind you. But
to me, it's the best distro out there.

> It's obvious that we entered some kind of rapid development model a few
> yrs ago.  I got systemd installed a few yrs ago on my jessie system, and
> had no idea for months that it even existed, or there was a change... now
> that maybe was kind of insidious.  But hey, that's water under the bridge,
> we are where we are, and where we are is if you are an average user, don't
> mess with defaults unless you want to spend a lot of time, and be on your
> own doing research sometimes for years to solve your problems.

It does take some work to keep the reins in one's hands. But you'll
always find helpful people out there.

> I sure did not mean to offend, just thinking out loud, take it for what it
> is worth.

I don't think you offended anyone. But my experience still disagrees
with what you write: Debian is perfectly viable without systemd/pulse/Gnome.

And the coolest thing? this is thanks to lots of maintainers who keep
the SysV scripts in "their" packages alive, although they possibly
prefer systemd. So... *thank you* to each one of you!

Cheers
-- t

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Vincent Lefevre-10
In reply to this post by Patrick Bartek-2
On 2019-05-28 11:18:39 -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> On Tue, 28 May 2019 20:39:53 +0300
> Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 09:49:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 May 2019 18:56:44 +0300
> > > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > apt/apt-get already by default set NOT to install Recommends, only
> > > dependencies.  And I check before installing anything just to be sure.  
> >
> > Yet your apt tries to install gksu, and mine does not.
>
> I'll check.  It could be a dependency of a wicd dependency.

No, there isn't any dependency, even recursively:

ypig:~> apt install -s wicd
[...]
The following additional packages will be installed:
  python-glade2 python-notify python-wicd rfkill wicd-daemon wicd-gtk
  wireless-tools
[...]

and I don't have gksu already installed:

ypig:~> dpkg -s gksu
dpkg-query: package 'gksu' is not installed and no information is available
Use dpkg --info (= dpkg-deb --info) to examine archive files.

--
Vincent Lefèvre <[hidden email]> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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Re: Insidious systemd

Vincent Lefevre-10
In reply to this post by Liam O'Toole
On 2019-05-28 22:16:27 +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:

> On 2019-05-27, Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi, all!
> >
> > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I searched
> > for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good:  No desktop
> > environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and single
> > lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  Imagine my surprise when
> > during the simulated install (I always check), I discovered systemd
> > init was set to replace sysvinit.  I had converted Stretch to the
> > latter during its install last year, but left the systemd libraries.
> >
> > There was no mention of this wicd caveat or any systemd dependency
> > anywhere.  Obviously, there were.  What other things does systemd do
> > that users are unaware and contrary to their wishes?  I wonder . . .
> >
> > After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> > install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
> > better?   I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done
> > it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so
> > much the better.
> >
> > Thanks for any input.
> >
> > B
>
> Are you trolling? You need to talk to the maintainers of wicd and ask
> them why there is a systemd dependency.

He shouldn't. I've a machine that is still under sysvinit, and
I can install wicd without any dependency issue.

--
Vincent Lefèvre <[hidden email]> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Reco
In reply to this post by Vincent Lefevre-10
        Hi.

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 05:39:05PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> On 2019-05-28 11:18:39 -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 May 2019 20:39:53 +0300
> > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 09:49:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 May 2019 18:56:44 +0300
> > > > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > apt/apt-get already by default set NOT to install Recommends, only
> > > > dependencies.  And I check before installing anything just to be sure.  
> > >
> > > Yet your apt tries to install gksu, and mine does not.
> >
> > I'll check.  It could be a dependency of a wicd dependency.
>
> No, there isn't any dependency, even recursively:
>
> ypig:~> apt install -s wicd
> [...]
> The following additional packages will be installed:
>   python-glade2 python-notify python-wicd rfkill wicd-daemon wicd-gtk
>   wireless-tools
> [...]

$ apt-cache show wicd-gtk | grep Recommends
Recommends: gksu, python-notify

Things might be different in buster or sid, of course. This is stretch.

Reco

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by bw-2
On Tue, 28 May 2019 12:28:49 -0400 (EDT)
bw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <20190528071022.45725f73@debian9>
>
> ah... sorry, here's the culprit, hard depend on systemd
>
> dbus-user-session
>

It doesn't even have to be hard.  Any association no matter how soft
or distant an app has with GNOME or any of its various parts or
utilities will result in a systemd gotcha.  I discovered this when I
first tested Jessie.  It became more prevalent in Stretch.  I have no
idea about Buster.  That's why now I always do simulated installs first.

Is Debian slowly becoming systemd proprietary?  It would be a great
loss to Linux and its philosophy if true.  But that looks to be the
direction Debian is headed.

Once I suggested on this list when systemd first debuted with Jessie
about choosing an init at install time as an option. It was not well
received.  Many said it couldn't be done or was impractical. My reply
was, if you can change inits AFTER the install completes, why not
BEFORE. The thread died of apathy shortly thereafter with no resolution.

B

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Re: Insidious systemd

Liam O'Toole
In reply to this post by Vincent Lefevre-10
On 2019-05-29, Vincent Lefevre <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2019-05-28 22:16:27 +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
>> On 2019-05-27, Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Hi, all!
>> >
>> > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I searched
>> > for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good:  No desktop
>> > environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and single
>> > lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  Imagine my surprise when
>> > during the simulated install (I always check), I discovered systemd
>> > init was set to replace sysvinit.  I had converted Stretch to the
>> > latter during its install last year, but left the systemd libraries.
>> >
>> > There was no mention of this wicd caveat or any systemd dependency
>> > anywhere.  Obviously, there were.  What other things does systemd do
>> > that users are unaware and contrary to their wishes?  I wonder . . .
>> >
>> > After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
>> > install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
>> > better?   I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done
>> > it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so
>> > much the better.
>> >
>> > Thanks for any input.
>> >
>> > B
>>
>> Are you trolling? You need to talk to the maintainers of wicd and ask
>> them why there is a systemd dependency.
>
> He shouldn't. I've a machine that is still under sysvinit, and
> I can install wicd without any dependency issue.
>

Then the dependency is not a hard one, and OP is free to not install
systemd if he wishes. There's nothing "insidious" about it.

--

Liam

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Re: Insidious systemd

Patrick Bartek-2
In reply to this post by Vincent Lefevre-10
On Wed, 29 May 2019 17:43:49 +0200
Vincent Lefevre <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2019-05-28 22:16:27 +0100, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> > On 2019-05-27, Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]> wrote:  
> > > Hi, all!
> > >
> > > Needing to convert this box from wired ethernet to wireless, I searched
> > > for a suitable network manager and wicd looked good:  No desktop
> > > environment dependencies (I use a window manager Openbox and single
> > > lxpanel), compatibility with Openbox, etc.  Imagine my surprise when
> > > during the simulated install (I always check), I discovered systemd
> > > init was set to replace sysvinit.  I had converted Stretch to the
> > > latter during its install last year, but left the systemd libraries.
> > >
> > > There was no mention of this wicd caveat or any systemd dependency
> > > anywhere.  Obviously, there were.  What other things does systemd do
> > > that users are unaware and contrary to their wishes?  I wonder . . .
> > >
> > > After more investigating, I came across wifi-radar whose simulated
> > > install doesn't muck my system.  Any suggestions for something
> > > better?   I could just go with iwconfig or iw?  No big deal.  I've done
> > > it before.  But being lazy, if I can find an app to do the work, so
> > > much the better.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any input.
> > >
> > > B  
> >
> > Are you trolling? You need to talk to the maintainers of wicd and ask
> > them why there is a systemd dependency.  
>
> He shouldn't. I've a machine that is still under sysvinit, and
> I can install wicd without any dependency issue.
>

What version OS you running? Fully up-to-date? GNOME? Or something else?

My install of Stretch was very atypical.  Started with a basic terminal
system using a netinstall CD, then added X, Openbox, apps, etc.  No
desktop environment was ever installed.  No login manager either.  Boots
to a terminal, log-in, then run startx.  It's a basic GUI set up.

B

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

bw-2
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
In-Reply-To: <20190529110158.3422329e@debian9>

Patrick Bartek <[hidden email]>
>... Any association no matter how soft
>or distant an app has with GNOME or any of its various parts or
>utilities will result in a systemd gotcha.  I discovered this when I
>first tested Jessie.  It became more prevalent in Stretch.  I have no
>idea about Buster.  That's why now I always do simulated installs first.

I think -s is the best thing I ever discovered about apt.  You don;t even
need to be root anymore.  I always use:
$ apt - s install bsgotchascrewupmysystem
as a regular user to try and figure things out when I get confused.  But!
I admit to being an aptitude junky, I love it, always use it in preference
to apt or apt-get.  This simulated thing is not really systemd related,
but good advice IMO for everybody.

>Is Debian slowly becoming systemd proprietary?  It would be a great
>loss to Linux and its philosophy if true.  But that looks to be the
>direction Debian is headed.

Nah we aint becoming systemd prprietary, we're headed towards windows
proprietary.  Mark My Words.  Watch What Happens...


>Once I suggested on this list when systemd first debuted with Jessie
>about choosing an init at install time as an option. It was not well
>received.  Many said it couldn't be done or was impractical. My reply
>was, if you can change inits AFTER the install completes, why not
>BEFORE. The thread died of apathy shortly thereafter with no resolution.

You know, I think I rememeber a long thread about choosing init.  The
problem then though IIRC, is some newer stuff (gnome?) does not support
sysV init, or any other init.  That was one of the reasons thay made
systemd default init, to make eveything work OOTB, like windows.

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Re: lightweight wifi UI (Was: Insidious systemd)

Vincent Lefevre-10
In reply to this post by Reco
On 2019-05-29 20:47:06 +0300, Reco wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 05:39:05PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > On 2019-05-28 11:18:39 -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 May 2019 20:39:53 +0300
> > > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 09:49:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 28 May 2019 18:56:44 +0300
> > > > > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > apt/apt-get already by default set NOT to install Recommends, only
> > > > > dependencies.  And I check before installing anything just to be sure.  
> > > >
> > > > Yet your apt tries to install gksu, and mine does not.
> > >
> > > I'll check.  It could be a dependency of a wicd dependency.
> >
> > No, there isn't any dependency, even recursively:
> >
> > ypig:~> apt install -s wicd
> > [...]
> > The following additional packages will be installed:
> >   python-glade2 python-notify python-wicd rfkill wicd-daemon wicd-gtk
> >   wireless-tools
> > [...]
>
> $ apt-cache show wicd-gtk | grep Recommends
> Recommends: gksu, python-notify
>
> Things might be different in buster or sid, of course. This is stretch.

Yes, this has changed:

ypig:~> apt-cache show wicd-gtk | grep Recommends
Recommends: policykit-1 | menu | kde-runtime, python-notify
Recommends: gksu, python-notify

But anyway, this was just a Recommends, and the OP had apt configured
not to install Recommends by default.

--
Vincent Lefèvre <[hidden email]> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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Re: Insidious systemd

Vincent Lefevre-10
In reply to this post by Patrick Bartek-2
On 2019-05-29 12:01:44 -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2019 17:43:49 +0200
> Vincent Lefevre <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > He shouldn't. I've a machine that is still under sysvinit, and
> > I can install wicd without any dependency issue.
>
> What version OS you running? Fully up-to-date? GNOME? Or something else?

Debian/unstable (which should now be very similar to testing), fully
up-to-date except a few unrelated packages. Various GNOME packages
installed.

Note: The dependency resolvers are sometimes wrong, sometimes wanting
to remove/replace packages even when this is not needed. In such a
case, a solution is to provide packages you want to keep, e.g. for
sysvinit-core:

  apt install wicd sysvinit-core

--
Vincent Lefèvre <[hidden email]> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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