Is Buster ready?

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Is Buster ready?

Alessandro Vesely
Hi,

I've been trying to install 10.0 via netinst.  It cannot reach the screen card
(the laptop is HP-G62), but it also has some funny behavior, like not adding
/sbin to the PATH after a successful su command.

I never installed Buster before.  Am I better off installing Stretch and then
upgrade?


TIA
Ale

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Re: Is Buster ready?

Charles Curley
On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 22:50:41 +0200
Alessandro Vesely <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've been trying to install 10.0 via netinst. <SNIP> but it also has
> some funny behavior, like not adding /sbin to the PATH after a
> successful su command.

How are you calling su? If you just call su with no options, it simply
changes the user, and nothing else, leaving you in the environment of
the previous user.

To get the environment of the new user, run 'su - [user]'.

As usual, 'man su' for the gory details.


>
> I never installed Buster before.  Am I better off installing Stretch
> and then upgrade?

Probably not, but I don't know your situation.


--
"When we talk of civilization, we are too apt to limit the meaning of
the word to its mere embellishments, such as arts and sciences; but
the true distinction between it and barbarism is, that the one
presents a state of society under the protection of just and
well-administered law, and the other is left to the chance government
of brute force."
- The Rev. James White, Eighteen Christian Centuries, 1889
Key fingerprint = 38DD CE9F 9725 42DD E29A  EB11 7514 6D37 A332 10CB
https://charlescurley.com

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Re: Is Buster ready?

The Wanderer
In reply to this post by Alessandro Vesely
On 2019-09-02 at 16:50, Alessandro Vesely wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've been trying to install 10.0 via netinst.  It cannot reach the
> screen card (the laptop is HP-G62),

No idea about this without more information, but:

> but it also has some funny behavior, like not adding /sbin to the
> PATH after a successful su command.

This is a result of an intentional behavior change, for variously,
security, theoretical-correctness, and (I think) compatibility reasons.

IIRC, this happened when Debian switched from using the 'su'
implementation provided by src:shadow to the one provided by src:util-linux.

I don't even remember all the specifics (they might be in the buster
release notes), but the one-line thing to remember is that in order to
get the same "change environment variables" behavior you're used to from
the previous 'su', you now need to run 'su -'. I've gotten in the habit
of doing that routinely, myself.

> I never installed Buster before.  Am I better off installing Stretch
> and then upgrade?

I can't speak to whether that will help with your screen problem, but it
won't affect the behavior of su post-upgrade.

--
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw


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Re: Is Buster ready?

Greg Wooledge
In reply to this post by Charles Curley
On Mon, Sep 02, 2019 at 03:28:33PM -0600, Charles Curley wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 22:50:41 +0200
> Alessandro Vesely <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I've been trying to install 10.0 via netinst. <SNIP> but it also has
> > some funny behavior, like not adding /sbin to the PATH after a
> > successful su command.
>
> How are you calling su? If you just call su with no options, it simply
> changes the user, and nothing else, leaving you in the environment of
> the previous user.
>
> To get the environment of the new user, run 'su - [user]'.
>
> As usual, 'man su' for the gory details.

This is a change in buster.  It's documented on the Debian wiki at
<https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Changes> where you can see several
different options for working around the change.

Personally, I find that none of the workarounds is perfect, but the one
that involves putting ALWAYS_SET_PATH yes in /etc/login.defs is the
least terrible.  Your opinion may differ.

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Re: Is Buster ready?

Alessandro Vesely
On Tue 03/Sep/2019 16:28:48 +0200 Greg Wooledge wrote:

>> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 22:50:41 +0200 Alessandro Vesely <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I've been trying to install 10.0 via netinst. <SNIP> but it also has
>>> some funny behavior, like not adding /sbin to the PATH after a
>>> successful su command.
>>
>
> This is a change in buster.  It's documented on the Debian wiki at
> <https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Changes> where you can see several
> different options for working around the change.
>
> Personally, I find that none of the workarounds is perfect, but the one
> that involves putting ALWAYS_SET_PATH yes in /etc/login.defs is the
> least terrible.  Your opinion may differ.

Great, I'll do that when I'll upgrade.  I have lots of su -c 'blah' scripts...  Thanks!

For another quirk, the /etc/dbus-1 directory only contained two subdirs only, no links to .conf's.

One positive note, mokutil --sb state reports "SecureBoot enabled", which happened without my having done anything else.


MOST IMPORTANT HELP WANTED:
===========================

That laptop features a radeon "Vega 6" graphic card, which doesn't seem to be recognised (lspci -k reports no drivers for VGA and Non-VGA entries).  I'm wandering if I should try and install the packages in https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/release-notes/rn-prorad-lin-18-20, for Ubuntu 18.04.  Don't they do Debian?


Best
Ale


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Re: Is Buster ready?

Charles Curley
On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 20:10:08 +0200
Alessandro Vesely <[hidden email]> wrote:

> MOST IMPORTANT HELP WANTED:
> ===========================

You will get better response on the list by starting a new email thread,
with an appropriate subject, for each topic.

--
"When we talk of civilization, we are too apt to limit the meaning of
the word to its mere embellishments, such as arts and sciences; but
the true distinction between it and barbarism is, that the one
presents a state of society under the protection of just and
well-administered law, and the other is left to the chance government
of brute force."
- The Rev. James White, Eighteen Christian Centuries, 1889
Key fingerprint = 38DD CE9F 9725 42DD E29A  EB11 7514 6D37 A332 10CB
https://charlescurley.com

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AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10 (Was: Is Buster ready?)

Étienne Mollier
In reply to this post by Alessandro Vesely
Alessandro Vesely, on 2019-09-03 :
> That laptop features a radeon "Vega 6" graphic card, which
> doesn't seem to be recognised (lspci -k reports no drivers for
> VGA and Non-VGA entries).  I'm wandering if I should try and
> install the packages in
> https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/release-notes/rn-prorad-lin-18-20,
> for Ubuntu 18.04.  Don't they do Debian?

Good day,

I don't see your chip in the "AMD Product Family Compatibility",
so that's probably a dead end.  Also the "firmware-amd-graphics"
non-free package does not advertise compatibility with it.  From
what I understand, this is some sort of AMD integrated graphics.

It is possible that your hardware is a wee bit too recent for
Debian 10 vanilla: Vega support for the amdgpu driver landed in
Linux 4.20, but Debian 10 ships with kernel version 4.19.

You will have more chances with Linux 5.2 from buster-backports.
Also there is a faint possibility that your chip might require a
firmware update through the non-free package "amd64-microcode".

Kind Regards,  :)
--
Étienne Mollier <[hidden email]>
Fingerprint:  5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54  2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d



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Re: Is Buster ready?

Andrea Borgia
In reply to this post by Alessandro Vesely
If you want to try a newer kernel with AMD graphics built in, try this:

Il giorno mar 3 set 2019 alle ore 20:10 Alessandro Vesely <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
On Tue 03/Sep/2019 16:28:48 +0200 Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Sep 2019 22:50:41 +0200 Alessandro Vesely <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I've been trying to install 10.0 via netinst. <SNIP> but it also has
>>> some funny behavior, like not adding /sbin to the PATH after a
>>> successful su command.
>>
>
> This is a change in buster.  It's documented on the Debian wiki at
> <https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster#Changes> where you can see several
> different options for working around the change.
>
> Personally, I find that none of the workarounds is perfect, but the one
> that involves putting ALWAYS_SET_PATH yes in /etc/login.defs is the
> least terrible.  Your opinion may differ.

Great, I'll do that when I'll upgrade.  I have lots of su -c 'blah' scripts...  Thanks!

For another quirk, the /etc/dbus-1 directory only contained two subdirs only, no links to .conf's.

One positive note, mokutil --sb state reports "SecureBoot enabled", which happened without my having done anything else.


MOST IMPORTANT HELP WANTED:
===========================

That laptop features a radeon "Vega 6" graphic card, which doesn't seem to be recognised (lspci -k reports no drivers for VGA and Non-VGA entries).  I'm wandering if I should try and install the packages in https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/release-notes/rn-prorad-lin-18-20, for Ubuntu 18.04.  Don't they do Debian?


Best
Ale


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Re: AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10

Sven Joachim
In reply to this post by Étienne Mollier
On 2019-09-03 21:49 +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:

> Alessandro Vesely, on 2019-09-03 :
>> That laptop features a radeon "Vega 6" graphic card, which
>> doesn't seem to be recognised (lspci -k reports no drivers for
>> VGA and Non-VGA entries).  I'm wandering if I should try and
>> install the packages in
>> https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/release-notes/rn-prorad-lin-18-20,
>> for Ubuntu 18.04.  Don't they do Debian?
>
> Good day,
>
> I don't see your chip in the "AMD Product Family Compatibility",
> so that's probably a dead end.  Also the "firmware-amd-graphics"
> non-free package does not advertise compatibility with it.  From
> what I understand, this is some sort of AMD integrated graphics.

Yes, it is used in the Ryzen 2300U mobile processor[1].

> It is possible that your hardware is a wee bit too recent for
> Debian 10 vanilla: Vega support for the amdgpu driver landed in
> Linux 4.20, but Debian 10 ships with kernel version 4.19.

No, the 4.20 kernel added support for the brand-new 7nm Vega20 GPUs.
Older Vega GPUs such as Alassandro's are supported in 4.19.

> Also there is a faint possibility that your chip might require a
> firmware update through the non-free package "amd64-microcode".

The graphics card actually needs firmware-amd-graphics.  The
amd64-microcode package is for the CPU, and is recommended if the
manufacturer does not provide firmware updates.

Cheers,
       Sven


1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_RX_Vega_series#Mobile_APUs

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Re: AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10

Étienne Mollier
Sven, on 2019-09-03:
> On 2019-09-03 21:49 +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> > It is possible that your hardware is a wee bit too recent for
> > Debian 10 vanilla: Vega support for the amdgpu driver landed in
> > Linux 4.20, but Debian 10 ships with kernel version 4.19.
>
> No, the 4.20 kernel added support for the brand-new 7nm Vega20 GPUs.
> Older Vega GPUs such as Alassandro's are supported in 4.19.

Thank you Sven for pointing this out!  You're right, I've been
confused by personal experience with other chips.  Installation
of "firmware-amd-graphics" should be sufficient in that case.
I should probably refrain to post past a certain hour in my TZ.

Anyway, Kind Regards,  :)
--
Étienne Mollier <[hidden email]>
Fingerprint:  5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54  2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d



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Re: AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10

Alessandro Vesely
On Wed 04/Sep/2019 20:12:55 +0200 Étienne Mollier wrote:

> Sven, on 2019-09-03:
>> On 2019-09-03 21:49 +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
>>> It is possible that your hardware is a wee bit too recent for
>>> Debian 10 vanilla: Vega support for the amdgpu driver landed in
>>> Linux 4.20, but Debian 10 ships with kernel version 4.19.
>>
>> No, the 4.20 kernel added support for the brand-new 7nm Vega20 GPUs.
>> Older Vega GPUs such as Alassandro's are supported in 4.19.
>
> Thank you Sven for pointing this out!  You're right, I've been
> confused by personal experience with other chips.  Installation
> of "firmware-amd-graphics" should be sufficient in that case.

For the record, it doesn't work.  I additionally tinkered for a while with the
drivers supplied by AMD, but didn't succeed.  Eventually, I gave up.  Ubuntu
recognizes it out of the box.


Best
Ale



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Re: AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10

Étienne Mollier
Ale, on 2019-09-05:
> On Wed 04/Sep/2019 20:12:55 +0200 Étienne Mollier wrote:
> > Thank you Sven for pointing this out!  You're right, I've been
> > confused by personal experience with other chips.  Installation
> > of "firmware-amd-graphics" should be sufficient in that case.
>
> For the record, it doesn't work.  I additionally tinkered for a while with the
> drivers supplied by AMD, but didn't succeed.  Eventually, I gave up.  Ubuntu
> recognizes it out of the box.

Out of curiosity, which Ubuntu release did the job?

It could give a clue as of required firmware or drivers levels
for your integrated card, or any other missing component.

Kind Regards,  :)

--
Étienne Mollier <[hidden email]>
Fingerprint:  5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54  2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d



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Re: AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10

Alessandro Vesely
On Thu 05/Sep/2019 22:00:58 +0200 Étienne Mollier wrote:

> Ale, on 2019-09-05:
>> On Wed 04/Sep/2019 20:12:55 +0200 Étienne Mollier wrote:
>> > Thank you Sven for pointing this out!  You're right, I've been
>> > confused by personal experience with other chips.  Installation
>> > of "firmware-amd-graphics" should be sufficient in that case.
>>
>> For the record, it doesn't work.  I additionally tinkered for a while with the
>> drivers supplied by AMD, but didn't succeed.  Eventually, I gave up.  Ubuntu
>> recognizes it out of the box.
>
> Out of curiosity, which Ubuntu release did the job?

It was Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS.
http://releases.ubuntu.com/18.04/ubuntu-18.04.3-desktop-amd64.iso


> It could give a clue as of required firmware or drivers levels
> for your integrated card, or any other missing component.


Given that Ubuntu is based on Debian, drawing liberally on their work is not
only shameless, it is a savvy arrangement to avoid doing the same work twice.


Best
Ale


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Re: AMD Vega 6 on Debian 10

Étienne Mollier
Ale, on 2019-09-08 :

> On Thu 05/Sep/2019 22:00:58 +0200 Étienne Mollier wrote:
> > Out of curiosity, which Ubuntu release did the job?
>
>
> It was Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS.
> http://releases.ubuntu.com/18.04/ubuntu-18.04.3-desktop-amd64.iso
>
>
> > It could give a clue as of required firmware or drivers levels
> > for your integrated card, or any other missing component.
Well, Ubuntu 18.04 itself was released in April 2018, prior
Debian Buster's freeze period January this year.  Ubuntu 18.04.3
however has been released in April this year, after the freeze,
but before the release of Debian 10:

        https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseNotes/ChangeSummary/18.04.2
        https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseNotes/ChangeSummary/18.04.3

Since Ubuntu is based on Debian Testing, it might have been
reasonable to expect Debian 10 to be sufficient for your
hardware; but reality seems to have proven otherwise.

Maybe updates regarding driver support and firmware have landed
between each minor updates?  I see a few occurrences to "amdgpu"
in each release notes.  You could have been hit by one these
little missing bits.

Stupid me, not having asked this earlier!  If you happen to
retry Debian one day, and if that still fails, then it would be
interesting to post your "dmesg" output, "Xorg.0.log" content,
and other applicable logged information.

> Given that Ubuntu is based on Debian, drawing liberally on their work is not
> only shameless, it is a savvy arrangement to avoid doing the same work twice.

Ubuntu and Debian have differing goals, although both would tend
to be an "Universal Operating System".  The first one tends to
putting GNU/Linux in anyone's hands, while the second would more
emphasize respect of the Free Software spirit, at the expense of
usability, alas, sometimes.

From what I understand, a lot of hard work is done by both
sides, benefiting to both distributions.

Kind Regards,  :)
--
Étienne Mollier <[hidden email]>
Fingerprint:  5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54  2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d


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