Java in Debian 5

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Java in Debian 5

Bret Busby

On the web page at
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html#id2794519 
is stated:

"2.7. Java now in Debian

The OpenJDK Java Runtime Environment openjdk-6-jre and Development Kit
openjdk-6-jdk, needed for executing Java GUI and Webstart programs or
building such programs, are now in Debian. The packages are built using
the IcedTea build support and patches from the IcedTea project."

Does this now mean that we cannot instal and run Debian 5 without Java,
or that Debian cannot fully run without Java, in the same way that some
versions of MS Windows cannot fully run without Internet Explorer?

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................


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Re: Java in Debian 5

S D-7
--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:


> Does this now mean that we cannot instal and run Debian 5
> without Java,

No, it doesn't mean that. You can install and run Debian without Java.

> or that Debian cannot fully run without Java,
> in the same way that some versions of MS Windows cannot
> fully run without Internet Explorer?

Again, no. It means that Java SDK is now part of Debian distribution and people who want Java installed can install it, as you would install some arbitrary package.

HTH



     


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Aneurin Price
In reply to this post by Bret Busby
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On the web page at
> http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html#id2794519
> is stated:
>
> "2.7. Java now in Debian
>
> The OpenJDK Java Runtime Environment openjdk-6-jre and Development Kit
> openjdk-6-jdk, needed for executing Java GUI and Webstart programs or
> building such programs, are now in Debian. The packages are built using the
> IcedTea build support and patches from the IcedTea project."
>
> Does this now mean that we cannot instal and run Debian 5 without Java, or
> that Debian cannot fully run without Java, in the same way that some
> versions of MS Windows cannot fully run without Internet Explorer?
>

I hope you don't find this rude, but that seems like a very radical
interpretation of the text, and I'm really curious what gave you that
impression. Was it from the quoted section alone? I really can't see that
in there.

Nye


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Michael Pobega
In reply to this post by Bret Busby
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:07:05PM +0900, Bret Busby wrote:

>
> On the web page at  
> http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html#id2794519 
> is stated:
>
> "2.7. Java now in Debian
>
> The OpenJDK Java Runtime Environment openjdk-6-jre and Development Kit  
> openjdk-6-jdk, needed for executing Java GUI and Webstart programs or  
> building such programs, are now in Debian. The packages are built using  
> the IcedTea build support and patches from the IcedTea project."
>
> Does this now mean that we cannot instal and run Debian 5 without Java,  
> or that Debian cannot fully run without Java, in the same way that some  
> versions of MS Windows cannot fully run without Internet Explorer?
>

If you choose to use Java programs, you'll obviously need Java for them.
But Debian doesn't come with anything that requires a Java interpreter
out of the box, so no, you can happily run Debian 5.0 without Java.

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Re: Java in Debian 5

consultores1
In reply to this post by S D-7
On February 18, 2009 11:44:43 pm S D wrote:

> --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Does this now mean that we cannot instal and run Debian 5
> > without Java,
>
> No, it doesn't mean that. You can install and run Debian without Java.
>
> > or that Debian cannot fully run without Java,
> > in the same way that some versions of MS Windows cannot
> > fully run without Internet Explorer?
>
> Again, no. It means that Java SDK is now part of Debian distribution and
> people who want Java installed can install it, as you would install some
> arbitrary package.
>
> HTH

The problem is, if it come on a standard installation as SELinux and probably
others; because in this case it becomes an obligation by default.

BTW, SElinux could control all linux boxes as Windows do it, this is the
method to create dependency and control.


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Re: Java in Debian 5

S D-7



--- On Thu, 2/19/09, francisco Quinonez <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The problem is, if it come on a standard installation as
> SELinux and probably
> others; because in this case it becomes an obligation by
> default.

What Java packages are you referring to? If you don't use any Java apps you should be able to remove Java without any ill effect.

> BTW, SElinux could control all linux boxes as Windows do
> it, this is the
> method to create dependency and control.

Dependency maybe, control no. Java is Free Software licensed under GNU, is it not?




     


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Alexander Samad
In reply to this post by consultores1
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:54:39PM -0800, francisco Quinonez wrote:
> On February 18, 2009 11:44:43 pm S D wrote:
> > --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]

> > Again, no. It means that Java SDK is now part of Debian distribution and
> > people who want Java installed can install it, as you would install some
> > arbitrary package.
> >
> > HTH
>
> The problem is, if it come on a standard installation as SELinux and probably
> others; because in this case it becomes an obligation by default.
>
> BTW, SElinux could control all linux boxes as Windows do it, this is the
> method to create dependency and control.
Why do we need SElinux, yuck yuck.

before I rant too much, is it a must install on debian 5.

>

[snip]


--
"The point is, this is a way to help inoculate me about what has come and is coming."

        - George W. Bush
09/02/2000
on his anti-Gore ad, in an interview with the New York Times

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Re: Java in Debian 5

Paul Johnson
In reply to this post by Bret Busby
Bret Busby wrote:

> Does this now mean that we cannot instal and run Debian 5 without Java,
> or that Debian cannot fully run without Java, in the same way that some
> versions of MS Windows cannot fully run without Internet Explorer?

Mu.  It means you can run Java programs without Sun Java or Blackdown
Java or IBM Java.  OpenJDK is to java what linux is to UNIX.


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Tzafrir Cohen
In reply to this post by Alexander Samad
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 12:11:24PM +1100, Alex Samad wrote:

> before I rant too much, is it a must install on debian 5.

No. And using it requires some effort.


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Tzafrir Cohen
In reply to this post by Michael Pobega
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:27AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:

> If you choose to use Java programs, you'll obviously need Java for them.
> But Debian doesn't come with anything that requires a Java interpreter
> out of the box, so no, you can happily run Debian 5.0 without Java.

If you install the desktop task you also get OpenOffice.org that depends
on a Java JRE.

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Re: Java in Debian 5

Bret Busby
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:27AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>
>> If you choose to use Java programs, you'll obviously need Java for them.
>> But Debian doesn't come with anything that requires a Java interpreter
>> out of the box, so no, you can happily run Debian 5.0 without Java.
>
> If you install the desktop task you also get OpenOffice.org that depends
> on a Java JRE.
>
>

So, to use Open Office, Java is needed?

I understood that Open Office could be run without Java, unless a person
wanted to use the Open Office database.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Adrian Levi
2009/2/21 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:27AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>> If you install the desktop task you also get OpenOffice.org that depends
>> on a Java JRE.

> So, to use Open Office, Java is needed?
>
> I understood that Open Office could be run without Java, unless a person
> wanted to use the Open Office database.

If you install a desktop task then the openoffice.org meta package is
installed and that depends on all of the openoffice packages which
also depends on a java JDK.

You can install the openoffice items separately thereby not requiring
Java to be installed.

Adrian

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Re: Java in Debian 5

Bret Busby
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Adrian Levi wrote:

>
> 2009/2/21 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:
>> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:27AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>>> If you install the desktop task you also get OpenOffice.org that depends
>>> on a Java JRE.
>
>> So, to use Open Office, Java is needed?
>>
>> I understood that Open Office could be run without Java, unless a person
>> wanted to use the Open Office database.
>
> If you install a desktop task then the openoffice.org meta package is
> installed and that depends on all of the openoffice packages which
> also depends on a java JDK.
>
> You can install the openoffice items separately thereby not requiring
> Java to be installed.
>
> Adrian
>
>

Which is yet another reason that many of us want them to reinstate Star
Office 5.2.

It was far superior to Open Office, and, did not require Java, unless
the database was to be used, from memory, although I had had a database
running in at least one version of Star Office 5.x, without Java.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Adrian Levi
2009/2/22 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:

> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Adrian Levi wrote:
>
>>
>> 2009/2/21 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:27AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>>>> If you install the desktop task you also get OpenOffice.org that depends
>>>> on a Java JRE.
>>
>>> So, to use Open Office, Java is needed?
>>>
>>> I understood that Open Office could be run without Java, unless a person
>>> wanted to use the Open Office database.
>>
>> If you install a desktop task then the openoffice.org meta package is
>> installed and that depends on all of the openoffice packages which
>> also depends on a java JDK.
>>
>> You can install the openoffice items separately thereby not requiring
>> Java to be installed.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>
> Which is yet another reason that many of us want them to reinstate Star
> Office 5.2.
>
> It was far superior to Open Office, and, did not require Java, unless the
> database was to be used, from memory, although I had had a database running
> in at least one version of Star Office 5.x, without Java.

But you can use Openoffice.org without java but for Base, even then
IIRC it's only used for some of the functionality

I found a feally good link [1] that describes exactly what Java
provides in the different components of openoffice.org

aptitude show openoffice.org-writer

<snipped>
Depends: openoffice.org-core (= 1:2.4.1-17+b1), openoffice.org-base-core (=
         1:2.4.1-17+b1), libc6 (>= 2.7-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libicu38 (>=
         3.8-5), libstdc++6 (>= 4.2.1), libwpd8c2a, libwps-0.1-1, libxml2 (>=
         2.6.27), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)
Recommends: openoffice.org-filter-binfilter, java-gcj-compat | openjdk-6-jre |
            sun-java5-jre | sun-java6-jre, openoffice.org-java-common (>
            2.2.0-4), openoffice.org-writer2latex, openoffice.org-emailmerge
Suggests: openoffice.org-gcj, openoffice.org-base
Conflicts: openoffice.org-debian-files, openoffice.org-java-common (<= 1:2.3.1),
           openoffice.org2-writer (< 1:2.4.1-17+b1)
Replaces: openoffice.org (< 1.9), openoffice.org-common (< 1:2.3.1),
          openoffice.org-debian-files, openoffice.org2-writer (< 1:2.4.1-17+b1)
Provides: openoffice.org2-writer

If you have issues with Java 'tainting' your system then power to you,
but both Staroffice and Java were invented by Sun Microsystems then
released to the community freely. Open JDK is a completely free
implementation of Java that satisfies the DSFG.
I really don't see what your grumble is.

Adrian

[1]http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Java_and_OpenOffice.org

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<erno> hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to
ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my
apartment it is.


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Re: Java in Debian 5

celejar
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 07:30:41 +1000
Adrian Levi <[hidden email]> wrote:

...

> But you can use Openoffice.org without java but for Base, even then
> IIRC it's only used for some of the functionality
>
> I found a feally good link [1] that describes exactly what Java
> provides in the different components of openoffice.org

Thanks for that; I used that info, and repeated invocations of 'aptitude
why some-java-package' to remove a bunch of java packages from my
system.

I was actually surprised by the fact that I apparently had a bunch of
java stuff marked as manually installed.  I run aptitude without
automatic installation of recommends, and I have no idea when I would
have marked stuff like 'libxom-java' or 'bsh' (BeanShell) as manually
installed, since I'm not a java dev.

...

> If you have issues with Java 'tainting' your system then power to you,
> but both Staroffice and Java were invented by Sun Microsystems then
> released to the community freely. Open JDK is a completely free
> implementation of Java that satisfies the DSFG.
> I really don't see what your grumble is.

I have nothing against it, since it's FLOSS, but I'd rather not have a
bunch of stuff on my system for functionality that I don't use.  And
with the greatness that's Debian, if I ever *do* need it, it's only a
quick and easy 'aptitude install' away.

Celejar
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Re: Java in Debian 5

Adrian Levi
2009/2/22 Celejar <[hidden email]>:

> I was actually surprised by the fact that I apparently had a bunch of
> java stuff marked as manually installed.  I run aptitude without
> automatic installation of recommends, and I have no idea when I would
> have marked stuff like 'libxom-java' or 'bsh' (BeanShell) as manually
> installed, since I'm not a java dev.

Stuff tends to build up over time. It happens under linux but nowhere
at the speed that I used to find the same thing happening under
Windows.

> I have nothing against it, since it's FLOSS, but I'd rather not have a
> bunch of stuff on my system for functionality that I don't use.  And
> with the greatness that's Debian, if I ever *do* need it, it's only a
> quick and easy 'aptitude install' away.

Isn't that the truth :-)

Adrian

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<erno> hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to
ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my
apartment it is.


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Tzafrir Cohen
In reply to this post by Bret Busby
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 01:18:16AM +0900, Bret Busby wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Adrian Levi wrote:
>
>>
>> 2009/2/21 Bret Busby <[hidden email]>:
>>> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:31:27AM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
>>>> If you install the desktop task you also get OpenOffice.org that depends
>>>> on a Java JRE.
>>
>>> So, to use Open Office, Java is needed?
>>>
>>> I understood that Open Office could be run without Java, unless a person
>>> wanted to use the Open Office database.
>>
>> If you install a desktop task then the openoffice.org meta package is
>> installed and that depends on all of the openoffice packages which
>> also depends on a java JDK.
>>
>> You can install the openoffice items separately thereby not requiring
>> Java to be installed.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>
> Which is yet another reason that many of us want them to reinstate Star  
> Office 5.2.

Reminder:

StartOffice 5.2 was a proprietary application, using the motif toolkit
which had its own proprietary file formats. Has no decent support for
bidirectional or CJK text (or other types of complex text layout). It
ran in its own separate "desktop" (one big window with everything in it)
which did not play nice at all with the concept of window manager on
X11.

And a bit of (free) Java is what puts you off?

>
> It was far superior to Open Office, and, did not require Java, unless  
> the database was to be used, from memory, although I had had a database  
> running in at least one version of Star Office 5.x, without Java.

If you think that Java should not be required for database support (it
is not required in koffice, for instance), go ahead and provide a
different implementation. The people of Sun know Java well and like it.

For the same reason you see lots of GUI stuff in RedHat or Ubuntu done
in python and why the monkeys over at Ximian^WNovell like mono and use
it for everything.

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Re: Java in Debian 5

Bret Busby
In reply to this post by Adrian Levi
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Adrian Levi wrote:

>
> If you have issues with Java 'tainting' your system then power to you,
> but both Staroffice and Java were invented by Sun Microsystems then
> released to the community freely. Open JDK is a completely free
> implementation of Java that satisfies the DSFG.
> I really don't see what your grumble is.
>
>

Slight correction; Star Office was created and supplied by the Star
Division, which was taken over by Sun. When Sun took it over, Sun
scrapped alot of the functionality of Star Office.

I know; I was using Star Office a long time ago, and got (the free
version, for private and educational use), on CD, about 10 years ago. At
that time, from memory, a license to use Star Office5.x for commercial
purposes, cost about 299USD.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarOffice , for a bit more information
about Star Office, and the functionality that was eliminated by Sun.

It was also far superior to Open Office, or generating HTML documents,
as Star Office 5.x did not bloat HTML files with rubbish, and, vandalise
the files by reformatting them, and changing the links, etc, like Open
Office does.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................


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Re: Java in Debian 5

Paul Johnson
In reply to this post by Adrian Levi
Adrian Levi wrote:

> 2009/2/22 Celejar <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I was actually surprised by the fact that I apparently had a bunch of
>> java stuff marked as manually installed.  I run aptitude without
>> automatic installation of recommends, and I have no idea when I would
>> have marked stuff like 'libxom-java' or 'bsh' (BeanShell) as manually
>> installed, since I'm not a java dev.
>
> Stuff tends to build up over time. It happens under linux but nowhere
> at the speed that I used to find the same thing happening under
> Windows.
No doubt about that.  When cleaning up an older server I have at home, I
found files from 1999 in /etc/ for packages long since dropped and
replaced.  In some cases, belonging to packages that no longer exist!




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Re: Java in Debian 5

Bret Busby
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Paul Johnson wrote:

> Adrian Levi wrote:
>> 2009/2/22 Celejar <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> I was actually surprised by the fact that I apparently had a bunch of
>>> java stuff marked as manually installed.  I run aptitude without
>>> automatic installation of recommends, and I have no idea when I would
>>> have marked stuff like 'libxom-java' or 'bsh' (BeanShell) as manually
>>> installed, since I'm not a java dev.
>>
>> Stuff tends to build up over time. It happens under linux but nowhere
>> at the speed that I used to find the same thing happening under
>> Windows.
>
> No doubt about that.  When cleaning up an older server I have at home, I
> found files from 1999 in /etc/ for packages long since dropped and
> replaced.  In some cases, belonging to packages that no longer exist!
>
>

I thought that using package management to do system updates, like
apt-get update followed by apt-get dist-upgrade, removed packages that
became obsolete, and thence associated files, other than data files
created by the packages.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
  you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
   Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
   "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
   A Trilogy In Four Parts",
   written by Douglas Adams,
   published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................


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