Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

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Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Russell Coker
http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7991

From the above news article:
# Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's "abuse
# of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I asked our mailing list
# administrators to remove that privilege for in future."

http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html
http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html

Josselin's most offensive behaviour is in the form of blog posts syndicated by
Planet Debian, above are links to the two most recent ones.  He has stated
that he intends to keep offending people.  His aim seems to be the censorship
of people who disagree with him by continually offending them until they stop
disagreeing.

As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do
not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of
Debian.

http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

I believe that we need a code of conduct for the Planet.  The Ubuntu code of
conduct seems like a good starting point.  They have CC licenced their code
of conduct and encourage others to copy it.

http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7963

The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the
Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad
behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Simon Huggins
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do
> not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of
> Debian.

To be clear, this means that as the Debian culture is opposed to
censorship, you want to censor him?

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Josselin Mouette
In reply to this post by Russell Coker
Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit :
> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the
> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad
> behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

What do you want to say, actually? Apart from the fact (that we all
already know) that you can’t tolerate the very idea that people can have
an approach to human relationships different from yours?

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Romain Beauxis-2
In reply to this post by Russell Coker
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 13:04:24 Russell Coker, vous avez écrit :
> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the
> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian,
> bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.

I have that feeling that you are using the project to express personal
disagrement. Why don't you rephrase this using "I" instead of "the project" ?

I had some strong discussions with Joss, but I would never support such
proposition.

By the way, this is yet another recursive trolling subject. I can probably
start the discussion on "COPYING files are not DFSG" now :-)


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Stefano Zacchiroli
In reply to this post by Russell Coker
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
> As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do
> not belong on Planet Debian

This sounds like an oxymoron to me.

FWIW, I'm way more annoyed by _frequent_ OT blog posts totally
unrelated to Debian on Planet Debian (even though I enjoy _sporadic_
OTs) than by Joss posts.

A planet is just a planet, i.e. an aggregation of blogs which by their
own nature can contain strong opinions and strong way of expressing
them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
"official" message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been
appropriately blamed for), Planet is something else.

Live with that.

Cheers.

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zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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sempre uno zaino ...........| ..: |.... Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Florian Weimer
In reply to this post by Russell Coker
* Russell Coker:

> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the
> Debian project.

I don't think it's fair to hold Josselin responsible for what that
particular author writes, no matter what you think of his actions.


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Julien BLACHE
In reply to this post by Stefano Zacchiroli
Stefano Zacchiroli <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

> them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
> "official" message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
> d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been

Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.

Check the descriptions for both lists on lists.debian.org.

JB.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Stefano Zacchiroli
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 02:34:09PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
> > "official" message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
> > d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been
>
> Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
> debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.

You are a bit picky, you know? :-)

Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...........| ..: |.... Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Julien BLACHE
Stefano Zacchiroli <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

>> Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
>> debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.
>
> You are a bit picky, you know? :-)

I don't think so; setting the record straight isn't being picky :)

> Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
> skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
> in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say
anything "official" is project communication, that effectively goes to
debian-announce.

I essentially wanted to set the record straight as various things have
been written about d-d-a and its purpose after Joss' post, here and
elsewhere, mistaking d-d-a for d-a.

JB.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Josselin Mouette
On 12/18/08 06:26, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit :
>> The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the
>> Debian project.  D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad
>> behaviour in other forums also hurts the project.
>
> What do you want to say, actually? Apart from the fact (that we all
> already know) that you can’t tolerate the very idea that people can have
> an approach to human relationships different from yours?

Manners, Josselin, and discretion.  There are some places where it's
just not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking.

--
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Jefferson LA  USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Michael Banck
In reply to this post by Julien BLACHE
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 03:15:38PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:

> Stefano Zacchiroli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> >> Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
> >> debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.
> >
> > You are a bit picky, you know? :-)
>
> I don't think so; setting the record straight isn't being picky :)
>
> > Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
> > skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
> > in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.
>
> I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> developers.

Wrong.  While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/,
d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important
information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news.
The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean
others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point.


Michael


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Romain Beauxis-2
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 15:45:05 Michael Banck, vous avez écrit :
> > I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> > qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> > developers.
>
> Wrong.  While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/,
> d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important
> information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news.
> The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean
> others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point.

With this kind of sloppy argument, everything that anyone interested in Debian
may read should be considered as "official", including the planet.

I somehow don't really believe you are being right :)


Romain


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Michael Banck
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 03:53:09PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote:

> Le Thursday 18 December 2008 15:45:05 Michael Banck, vous avez écrit :
> > > I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> > > qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> > > developers.
> >
> > Wrong.  While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/,
> > d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important
> > information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news.
> > The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean
> > others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point.
>
> With this kind of sloppy argument, everything that anyone interested in Debian
> may read should be considered as "official", including the planet.

Like it or not, messages to d-d-a are frequently forwarded verbatim to
LWN and other major IT-centered news sources.  This happen much less
frequently with other Debian sources, besides, of course, debian-news and
debian-announce.


Michael


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Johannes Wiedersich
In reply to this post by Julien BLACHE
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Julien BLACHE wrote:
> I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say
> anything "official" is project communication, that effectively goes to
> debian-announce.

d-d-a has 5700 subscribers [1] and is archived/mirrored around the
world. Non-developers by far outnumber developers in subscribing that
list. It doesn't really matter, if it's an 'officially endorsed' message
from the project or not, the point is it was an 'announcement' and it
was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many.

> I essentially wanted to set the record straight as various things have
> been written about d-d-a and its purpose after Joss' post, here and
> elsewhere, mistaking d-d-a for d-a.

No doubt, the harm would have been bigger, if it had been posted to d-a
instead. But even then some would argue that it's not so bad, because it
could have been even worse...

Cheers,

Johannes

[1] http://lists.debian.org/stats/
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Mohammed Adnène Trojette-4
In reply to this post by Russell Coker
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008, Russell Coker wrote:
> He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems
> to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually
> offending them until they stop disagreeing.

Come on, you're defacing reality and Josselin's statements...

What he said is clear: he'll continue expressing himself freely (as in
free speech, remember?) even though some people feel offended. That's a
proof a courage, as long as he doesn't fall into illegality.

Quite different, isn't it?

--
Mohammed Adnène Trojette


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Noah Slater-6
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 04:45:07PM +0100, Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008, Russell Coker wrote:
> > He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems
> > to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually
> > offending them until they stop disagreeing.
>
> Come on, you're defacing reality and Josselin's statements...
>
> What he said is clear: he'll continue expressing himself freely (as in
> free speech, remember?) even though some people feel offended. That's a
> proof a courage, as long as he doesn't fall into illegality.
>
> Quite different, isn't it?

Not only that, but "I will continue shocking people" could be taken as an intent
or a prediction of people's reactions. Either he intends to shock people
purposefully or he fully expects people to continue to be shocked. You really
have put words into his mouth, and I don't think that's right. Also a bit funny
that you intend to solve "censorship" (not that I agree) with more censorship.

--
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Julien BLACHE
In reply to this post by Michael Banck
Michael Banck <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Like it or not, messages to d-d-a are frequently forwarded verbatim to
> LWN and other major IT-centered news sources.  This happen much less

Pretty much everything and anything ends up there, so that's hardly a
criterion for relevance or whatever.

JB.

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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Romain Beauxis-2
In reply to this post by Johannes Wiedersich
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 16:37:38 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :

> Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > I'd argue about that "official" thing that people have been using to
> > qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by
> > developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say
> > anything "official" is project communication, that effectively goes to
> > debian-announce.
>
> d-d-a has 5700 subscribers [1] and is archived/mirrored around the
> world. Non-developers by far outnumber developers in subscribing that
> list. It doesn't really matter, if it's an 'officially endorsed' message
> from the project or not, the point is it was an 'announcement' and it
> was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many.

I fully disagree.

If I say "I eat kittens at breakfast"(*) here or in planet.debian.org, how is
it relevant to the project ? Even though it could be read by many and
reproduced in a lot of places, the project never said it supports having
kitten for breakfast, even though *some* developpers might actually say it.

The question is not about what is said but about the scope of the
communication. "official" has a meaning which is clear. It is the composition
of an official position *and* an official communication channel.

Any argument that blurs this distinction will only make the project less
reliable and reduce the various opinions of people in the project, which
means free speech.

I *do* like when people express various points, including one that I do not
agree with. And we don't want DDs to have all the same ideas, right ?


Romain

(*) The true answer to this question remains private :-P


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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Johannes Wiedersich
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Romain Beauxis wrote:
> Le Thursday 18 December 2008 16:37:38 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit :
>>                            The point is it was an 'announcement' and it
>> was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many.
>
> I fully disagree.
>
> If I say "I eat kittens at breakfast"(*) here or in planet.debian.org, how is
> it relevant to the project ?

Just for clarification: I was talking about the announcement mail, not
about anything on this list or on planet.

Cheers,

Johannes
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian

Josselin Mouette
In reply to this post by Romain Beauxis-2
Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 17:49 +0100, Romain Beauxis a écrit :
> I eat kittens at breakfast

How do you cook them?

I like European cats a lot, but I heard the Siamese meat is more tender.
Do you have some advice?

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