Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

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Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Andrei POPESCU-2
Dear List Subscribers,


If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:

* do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
thread)

* do NOT quote spam, not even partially (this confuses the filters)

* DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]

https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam

Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
*not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:03:07AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> Dear List Subscribers,
>
>
> If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:
>
> * do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
> remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
> thread)

Thanks for the reminder...

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Richard Owlett-3
In reply to this post by Andrei POPESCU-2
On 04/19/2020 02:03 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> Dear List Subscribers,
>
>
> If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:
>
> * do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
> remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
> thread)
>
> * do NOT quote spam, not even partially (this confuses the filters)
>
> * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
>
> Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).

You specify what "bouncing" is NOT.
More information needed on what it IS.
I'm running SeaMonkey 2.49.4 on Linux.




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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 02:25:14AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/19/2020 02:03 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >Dear List Subscribers,
> >
> >
> >If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:
> >
> >* do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
> >remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
> >thread)
> >
> >* do NOT quote spam, not even partially (this confuses the filters)
> >
> >* DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
> >
> >https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
> >
> >Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> >*not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).
>
> You specify what "bouncing" is NOT.
Quoth the original: '"bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some
mail clients'

> More information needed on what it IS.

See above.

> I'm running SeaMonkey 2.49.4 on Linux.

I have no idea on how SeaMonkey works. I guess it is some kind of
thunderbird cousin?

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Andrei POPESCU-2
In reply to this post by Richard Owlett-3
On Du, 19 apr 20, 02:25:14, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/19/2020 02:03 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
> >
> > https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
> >
> > Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> > *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).
>
> You specify what "bouncing" is NOT.
> More information needed on what it IS.
It is "remailing" :p

I tried to fix that in the wiki with a link to Wikipedia, unfortunately
not a very good explanation.

A better reference / explanation would be much appreciated!

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

elvis
In reply to this post by Andrei POPESCU-2

On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> Dear List Subscribers,
>
>
> If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:
>
> * do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
> remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
> thread)
>
> * do NOT quote spam, not even partially (this confuses the filters)
>
> * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
>
> Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U

In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to
learn so little time.

Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?


It has a "edit as new message" where you can change the address etc and
send? Would that be close to what is needed?


>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

--
Don't let yesterday use up too much of today.

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Andrei POPESCU-2
On Du, 19 apr 20, 19:11:55, elvis wrote:

> On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
> >
> > https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
> >
> > Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> > *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U
>
> In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to learn so
> little time.
>
> Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
>
>
> It has a "edit as new message" where you can change the address etc and
> send? Would that be close to what is needed?
Apparently the "official" name (to be confirmed) is "remailing" and it
involves resending the message (mostly untouched) to another address.

If an option allows editing it is probably not it ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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Bouncing a message from Thunderbird [was: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever]

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by elvis
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 07:11:55PM +1000, elvis wrote:

>
> On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >Dear List Subscribers,
> >
> >
> >If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:
> >
> >* do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
> >remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
> >thread)
> >
> >* do NOT quote spam, not even partially (this confuses the filters)
> >
> >* DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
> >
> >https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
> >
> >Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> >*not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U
>
> In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to
> learn so little time.
>
> Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
So I tried to install thunderbird to see whether I can have a go
at it.

No way. Thing wanted to set up an account and refused to play
with me without one.

Hello thunderbird: if you insist in infantilizing your users
this way, I won't ever be your friend. Furrfu.

Purged, went on. Internet isn't really helpful.

> It has a "edit as new message" where you can change the address etc
> and send? Would that be close to what is needed?

I don't know. The aim is that the other side gets the original
message in as pristine a state as possible (including mail
headers!). They are going to train a spam filter on it.

You need a bounce whenever you want to let know the other side
how the whole message (including the "technical packaging", i.e.
headers and all) looked when you received it.

Does Thunderbird have a "Forward Message" thingy? It could be
this one.

The internet isn't very helpful on that either, alas. Some sites
say you need a plugin [1] for that.

If you want to try things out, you're welcome to bounce a message
from this list to me [2], and I'll try to tell you whether the
bounce looks good to me.

Sigh. Very disappointed of Thunderbird. Trying to make an easy
mail interface isn't the same as trying to make an interface
for children. Furrfu.

Cheers
[1] Say WHAT? It's as if my bike needed a plugin to move westward.
   Doesn't make any sense.
[2] pick any one: the idea is that we both have seen it and I
   have something to compare your bounce to.
-- tomás

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Andrei POPESCU-2
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:21:02PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

[...]

> Apparently the "official" name (to be confirmed) is "remailing" and it
> involves resending the message (mostly untouched) to another address.

Ah, I see. I was betting on "forwarding", but later it occurred to me
that this would wrap the original message (probably without headers :-(
into a part of a multi-part MIME. Drats. Probably you are right.

> If an option allows editing it is probably not it ;)

After re-adjusting my assessment of Thunderbird, I wouldn't be so sure
anymore :-/

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Andrei POPESCU-2
On Du, 19 apr 20, 11:41:52, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:21:02PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Apparently the "official" name (to be confirmed) is "remailing" and it
> > involves resending the message (mostly untouched) to another address.
>
> Ah, I see. I was betting on "forwarding", but later it occurred to me
> that this would wrap the original message (probably without headers :-(
> into a part of a multi-part MIME. Drats. Probably you are right.
As far as I know "forwarding as attachment" does not affect the original
message (though this may depend on the client), however it is *not*
appropriate for this particular use-case. I'm guessing because it would
be difficult to distinguish the forwarded message from other
(legitimate) mime parts.

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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Re: Bouncing a message from Thunderbird [was: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever]

Michael Howard
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
On 19/04/2020 10:38, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 07:11:55PM +1000, elvis wrote:
>> On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>> Dear List Subscribers,
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to help (or at least not make it more difficult) please:
>>>
>>> * do NOT reply to spam, ever! (this makes it hard or even impossible to
>>> remove it from the archives, since it is now a part of a legitimate
>>> thread)
>>>
>>> * do NOT quote spam, not even partially (this confuses the filters)
>>>
>>> * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
>>>
>>> https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
>>>
>>> Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
>>> *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U
>> In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to
>> learn so little time.
>>
>> Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
> So I tried to install thunderbird to see whether I can have a go
> at it.
>
> No way. Thing wanted to set up an account and refused to play
> with me without one.

You mean an email client wanted you to setup an email account? Wow, how
absurd :)

> Hello thunderbird: if you insist in infantilizing your users
> this way, I won't ever be your friend. Furrfu.

Seriously, what account? Never, ever, been asked to do anything untoward
when installing Thunderbird and I've done it thousands of times, quite
literally.

--
Michael Howard

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Andrei POPESCU-2
In reply to this post by Andrei POPESCU-2
On Du, 19 apr 20, 10:03:07, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
>
> Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).

This now also mentions the option the "Report as spam" button available
in the archives.

Tip: to find a message quickly in the archives one can go to
https://lists.debian.org/<msg-id> or
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/<msg-id> (which is also present in
the message's headers)

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Liam O'Toole
In reply to this post by elvis
On Sun, 19 Apr, 2020 at 19:11:55 +1000, elvis wrote:
>
> On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 
[...]

> > Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
> > *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U
>
> In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to learn so
> little time.

The idea is common enough to mutt users. You simply type 'b' on an email
and enter the recipient address when prompted.

> Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?

Alas, despite having used thunderbird also for many years I have never
come across this feature.

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Andrei POPESCU-2
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 01:15:16PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Du, 19 apr 20, 11:41:52, [hidden email] wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:21:02PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Apparently the "official" name (to be confirmed) is "remailing" and it
> > > involves resending the message (mostly untouched) to another address.
> >
> > Ah, I see. I was betting on "forwarding", but later it occurred to me
> > that this would wrap the original message (probably without headers :-(
> > into a part of a multi-part MIME. Drats. Probably you are right.
>
> As far as I know "forwarding as attachment" does not affect the original
> message (though this may depend on the client), however it is *not*
> appropriate for this particular use-case. I'm guessing because it would
> be difficult to distinguish the forwarded message from other
> (legitimate) mime parts.
I'll try whenever I have a thunderbird around. Don't hold your breath,
though :-)

If there's any thunderbird expert here: hey, tell us how that works,
and I promise to edit the Debian wiki :-)

The problem with the attachment thing is -- we don't know whether the
automaton at [hidden email] is set up to deal with that.

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Bouncing a message from Thunderbird [was: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever]

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Michael Howard
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:16:50AM +0100, Michael Howard wrote:

[...]

> >No way. Thing wanted to set up an account and refused to play
> >with me without one.
>
> You mean an email client wanted you to setup an email account? Wow,
> how absurd :)

Indeed. I just wanted to "kick the UI tires". But hey.

Mutt doesn't do that. Of course, I won't be able to send
a mail without an account set up. I know that.

> >Hello thunderbird: if you insist in infantilizing your users
> >this way, I won't ever be your friend. Furrfu.
>
> Seriously, what account? Never, ever, been asked to do anything
> untoward when installing Thunderbird and I've done it thousands of
> times, quite literally.

Since you seem to be a Thunderbird expert, pray tell us how to
"bounce" mails (meaning: send a mail you received, as unharmed
as possible, including headers, to some other party) -- most of
the time for analysis.

This would be a real service to the community, instead of boasting
around about thousands of Thunderbird installations, yay :-)

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Michael Howard
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
On 19/04/2020 11:38, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 01:15:16PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> On Du, 19 apr 20, 11:41:52, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:21:02PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Apparently the "official" name (to be confirmed) is "remailing" and it
>>>> involves resending the message (mostly untouched) to another address.
>>> Ah, I see. I was betting on "forwarding", but later it occurred to me
>>> that this would wrap the original message (probably without headers :-(
>>> into a part of a multi-part MIME. Drats. Probably you are right.
>> As far as I know "forwarding as attachment" does not affect the original
>> message (though this may depend on the client), however it is *not*
>> appropriate for this particular use-case. I'm guessing because it would
>> be difficult to distinguish the forwarded message from other
>> (legitimate) mime parts.
> I'll try whenever I have a thunderbird around. Don't hold your breath,
> though :-)
>
> If there's any thunderbird expert here: hey, tell us how that works,
> and I promise to edit the Debian wiki :-)
>
>
There is a mail redirect plugin for TB here,
https://mailredirect.sourceforge.io/installation.html. Never used it
myself though as I control my own mail server.

--
Michael Howard

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Re: Bouncing a message from Thunderbird [was: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever]

Michael Howard
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
On 19/04/2020 11:42, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:16:50AM +0100, Michael Howard wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> No way. Thing wanted to set up an account and refused to play
>>> with me without one.
>> You mean an email client wanted you to setup an email account? Wow,
>> how absurd :)
> Indeed. I just wanted to "kick the UI tires". But hey.
>
> Mutt doesn't do that. Of course, I won't be able to send
> a mail without an account set up. I know that.
>
>>> Hello thunderbird: if you insist in infantilizing your users
>>> this way, I won't ever be your friend. Furrfu.
>> Seriously, what account? Never, ever, been asked to do anything
>> untoward when installing Thunderbird and I've done it thousands of
>> times, quite literally.
> Since you seem to be a Thunderbird expert, pray tell us how to
> "bounce" mails (meaning: send a mail you received, as unharmed
> as possible, including headers, to some other party) -- most of
> the time for analysis.

No, not an expert. I have replied to a previous post about TB bouncing
though.

> This would be a real service to the community, instead of boasting
> around about thousands of Thunderbird installations, yay :-)

Don't do boasting, but I have installed TB thousands of times, just like
I've installed linux and windows thousands of times. No big deal is it?

I'd still like to know what 'account' the TB installation was asking you
to make though as it could be malicious software you have installed.

--
Michael Howard

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Chris Ramsden
In reply to this post by elvis


On 19/04/2020 10:11, elvis wrote:

>
> On 19/4/20 5:03 pm, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> * DO report spam only by bouncing it to [hidden email]
>>
>> https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#posting-spam
>>
>> Note: "bouncing" is also called "redirect" in some mail clients and is
>> *not* forwarding (should probably mention this in the wiki).U
>
> In over 25 years of email I have never come across this, so much to learn so little time.
>
> Any idea how to do this in Thunderbird?
>
>
> It has a "edit as new message" where you can change the address etc and send? Would that be close to what is needed?
>
>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Andrei
>
There is a "redirect" add-on [1] for Thunderbird. Its intended use is that if, usually in a workplace scenario, you receive a message that would be more appropriately handled by a colleague, you can pass it to that colleague. Additional headers are inserted so that it arrives in the colleague's inbox looking as if it it had been addressed to them and not to you. This may help your colleague if they file by sender, as it retains the original sender's address and not your address, as it would if forwarded in the usual way.

I'd invite Andrei to define what he means by "bounce". The vast majority of spam reporting agencies I have worked with ask for either headers, or the whole of the offending message sent as an attachment. No email client I have ever used has offered an option to "bounce".

[1] https://mailredirect.sourceforge.io/

--
Chris

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Michael Howard
On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:45:49AM +0100, Michael Howard wrote:

[...]

> >If there's any thunderbird expert here: hey, tell us how that works,
> >and I promise to edit the Debian wiki :-)
> >
> >
> There is a mail redirect plugin for TB here,
> https://mailredirect.sourceforge.io/installation.html.

Thanks.

So you can confirm there is no native way to achieve a bounce/redirect
in TB?

> Never used it myself though as I control my own mail server.

Just to avoid misunderstandings: how are those two topics related?

NB: I control my own mail server too, and do use "bounce" whenever
I receive spam from a domain having a postmaster: to show the
posmaster the spam as I received it, so (s)he can track the
perpetrator in his/her net.

Cheers
-- t

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Re: Kind reminder: please don't reply to and/or quote spam, ever

Michael Zoet
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
Am 19.04.20 um 12:38 schrieb [hidden email]:
>
>
> If there's any thunderbird expert here: hey, tell us how that works,
> and I promise to edit the Debian wiki :-)
>
You need to install an add on to have this feature in Thunderbird and
it's forks: https://mailredirect.sourceforge.io/

Maybe there are other add ons that achieve the same but I use this one
for years now.

The problem here is: most people do not know that you can bounce a mail
and what that means. So that's why most people do not miss this in most
modern mail readers. People that know CLI mail readers like pine and
mutt know what this is and miss it in Thunderbird. Like I did years ago
when I switched over ;-).

Hope this helps someone :-).

Stay healthy and safe,

Michael

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