Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

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Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Andreas Jakowidis
Dear Developers of Debian Operating-Systems and Debian-Software.

Because of a long experience in developing Debian-Software since the year 1995 it would be
important/necessary for everyone if you could offer Debian also as a mobile solution
for smartphone hardware in near future.

As an alternative mobile operating system to Google OS (Android).

The clear and well-ordered surface of Debian would be an alternative to some commercial
OS.

So that everyone get the choice to substitute Google OS with a Debian Mobile OS.

An own developed debian-based mobile-hardware is a further option.

But I would prefer a flexible usability (substitution of preinstalled Google-Android-OS)


Greetings,
Andreas Jakowidis








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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Paul Wise via nm
On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Andreas Jakowidis wrote:

> Because of a long experience in developing Debian-Software since the year
> 1995 it would be
> important/necessary for everyone if you could offer Debian also as a mobile
> solution
> for smartphone hardware in near future.

This is a very difficult problem due to the lack of support for these
devices in the mainline Linux kernel and userspace hardware support.
Things are moving slowly on that front, with most work being done
outside of Debian upstream and in other distros. Please take a look
these pages:

https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile
https://postmarketos.org/

> So that everyone get the choice to substitute Google OS with a Debian Mobile
> OS.

Not all mobile device makers will allow the installation of
alternative operating systems. In particular Apple and Huawei and
probably more are blocking this.

https://www.xda-developers.com/xda-huawei-decision-stop-bootloader-unlocking/

> An own developed debian-based mobile-hardware is a further option.

Debian does not do hardware development but there are some folks doing
potentially useful hardware that could run Debian at some point in the
future:

https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
https://www.pyra-handheld.com/
https://zerophone.org/
https://neo900.org/

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

W. Martin Borgert
In reply to this post by Andreas Jakowidis
Dear Andreas,

Quoting Andreas Jakowidis <[hidden email]>:
> Because of a long experience in developing Debian-Software since the year
> 1995 it would be
> important/necessary for everyone if you could offer Debian also as a mobile
> solution
> for smartphone hardware in near future.

Debian has a long history on mobile devices, going back to the Nokia N770¹
and the OpenMoko². For current developments, please check the Debian mobile
wiki page³, mailing list⁴ and IRC channel⁵.

Recent mobile devices running Debian or similar are the e.g. GPD Pocket⁶,
the Purism Librem 5⁷ (maybe available next year), or the Pyra Handheld⁸
(maybe available this year).

There are also developers trying to run Debian on different Android devices,
with different levels of success. Very often, it is not possible to update
the kernel, because drivers are not upstreamed or even non-free.

Cheers, Martin

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_770_Internet_Tablet
² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko
³ https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile
https://lists.debian.org/debian-mobile/
⁵ #debian-mobile on irc.oftc.net
http://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket
https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/

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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Steffen Möller
Hello,

On 8/15/18 12:30 PM, W. Martin Borgert wrote:

> Dear Andreas,
>
> Quoting Andreas Jakowidis <[hidden email]>:
>> Because of a long experience in developing Debian-Software since the
>> year
>> 1995 it would be
>> important/necessary for everyone if you could offer Debian also as a
>> mobile
>> solution
>> for smartphone hardware in near future.
>
> Debian has a long history on mobile devices, going back to the Nokia
> N770¹
> and the OpenMoko². For current developments, please check the Debian
> mobile
> wiki page³, mailing list⁴ and IRC channel⁵.

https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianFSO may be worth a look. I mean, we
once had the complete stack in Debian. I do not think that work
transitioned to salsa.

Cheers,

Steffen

>
> Recent mobile devices running Debian or similar are the e.g. GPD Pocket⁶,
> the Purism Librem 5⁷ (maybe available next year), or the Pyra Handheld⁸
> (maybe available this year).
>
> There are also developers trying to run Debian on different Android
> devices,
> with different levels of success. Very often, it is not possible to
> update
> the kernel, because drivers are not upstreamed or even non-free.
>
> Cheers, Martin
>
> ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_770_Internet_Tablet
> ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko
> ³ https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile
> ⁴ https://lists.debian.org/debian-mobile/
> ⁵ #debian-mobile on irc.oftc.net
> ⁶ http://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket
> ⁷ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
> ⁸ https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/
>

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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Paul Wise via nm
On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 7:35 PM, Steffen Möller wrote:

> https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianFSO may be worth a look. I mean, we
> once had the complete stack in Debian. I do not think that work
> transitioned to salsa.

The packages have been removed from Debian already and upstream isn't
really active any more. The whole stack from the OpenMoko days, all
the way down to apps and games has bitrotten and or disappeared from
the web.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Gentoo/Android | Debian/Android (Was: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems)

Benda Xu-3
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm
Hi Paul and friends on -devel,

Paul Wise <[hidden email]> writes:

> Please take a look
> these pages:
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile
> https://postmarketos.org/

I would like to append the list with

  https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Android

and a project "portage-powered android" under Gentoo GSOC2018,

  https://jsteward.moe/gsoc-2018-final-report.html .

We are still half way from our final goal to completely decouple Android
into a set of manageable Gentoo packages and to make smartphones no
different from personal computers.  But several milestones have been
achieved.  Our student Pengcheng Xu has gained complete control of the
android/lineage system by putting it into an LXC jail managed by Gentoo
natively on the phone, while keeping Android fully functional.

We have also accumulated first-hand hacking experience with the
Android's brand-new build system soong/blueprint and successfully built
Android bionic-libc independently by a Gentoo package[1].

The Debian Multi-Arch makes running arm64-linux-gnu and
arm64-linux-bionic side-to-side straight forward and will facicitate
potential integration between the two userlands.


The considerations for hacking on Android are

  1. Android is the operating system with the biggest user base.
     Hacking it can effectively bridge the mobile world with GNU/Linux
     distributions.

  2. Android consists mostly with free software under the Apache 2.0
     license.  It is only Google inventing a lot of new wheels that
     caused us not familiar with it.

  3. The problems of vendor binary blobs are no worse than the non-free
     firmware Debian and Gentoo are shipping.

  4. The outdated linux kernel problem can only be solved once GNU/Linux
     hackers start to hack Android.  Only we care about it the most!

  5. Gentoo/Android should not be much different from Gentoo/FreeBSD.
     It is slightly different for the case of Debian/kFreeBSD, but you
     get it idea: we have achieved similar goals before.

If that resonate with you, cool!  Let's ignore the difference between
Debian and Gentoo at this moment, as the distance between the two is an
epsilon compared to that between Android and either Debian or Gentoo.

Cheers,
Benda

1. https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/android.git/tree/sys-libs/bionic/bionic-8.1.0_p41.ebuild?id=6d90db7ab26624f1ed93eb3172666d39df316e3e

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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Steffen Möller
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm

On 8/15/18 1:53 PM, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 7:35 PM, Steffen Möller wrote:
>
>> https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianFSO may be worth a look. I mean, we
>> once had the complete stack in Debian. I do not think that work
>> transitioned to salsa.
> The packages have been removed from Debian already and upstream isn't
> really active any more. The whole stack from the OpenMoko days, all
> the way down to apps and games has bitrotten and or disappeared from
> the web.

Would it make sense to join the

https://docs.automotivelinux.org/docs/getting_started/en/dev/reference/homescreen/index.html

crowd?
https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/elc-openiot-europe-2018/ has
last year's keynote.

Steffen

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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Paul Wise via nm
On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 12:31 AM, Steffen Möller wrote:

> Would it make sense to join the
> https://docs.automotivelinux.org/docs/getting_started/en/dev/reference/homescreen/index.html
> crowd?

Automotive and mobile are quite different form factors. Also, I'd
expect that even if a car was running a Debian derivative or another
Linux distribution, it would be locked down (either technically or via
legal instruments) such that one could never gain control over the
system to install plain Debian. That said, packaging AGL or other
automotive components could be useful if we want to attract
manufacturers to basing their systems on Debian and sponsoring
DebConf. For end-users though, probably not so much.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: Missing: Mobile Debian-Solution referring to Smartphone Operating Systems (Alternative to Google/Android OS)

Steffen Möller

On 8/16/18 5:24 AM, Paul Wise wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 12:31 AM, Steffen Möller wrote:
>
>> Would it make sense to join the
>> https://docs.automotivelinux.org/docs/getting_started/en/dev/reference/homescreen/index.html
>> crowd?
> Automotive and mobile are quite different form factors. Also, I'd
> expect that even if a car was running a Debian derivative or another
> Linux distribution, it would be locked down (either technically or via
> legal instruments) such that one could never gain control over the
> system to install plain Debian.
I do not necessarily want Debian in my car. But I could well imagine that
I want to continue working with an application that I had worked with
during a plane or train or car ride.
> That said, packaging AGL or other
> automotive components could be useful if we want to attract
> manufacturers to basing their systems on Debian and sponsoring
> DebConf. For end-users though, probably not so much.
It could well be in the interest of car manufacturers to see

more of their applications on people's desktops, indeed.

Cheers,

Steffen