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Notes on IRC meeting

Marc Brockschmidt-4
Heya,

We had a short, rather spontaneous (arranged this afternoon) meeting in
#debian-release. Here are the notes, feel free to comment if anything
seems weird, plain wrong or otherwise makes you wish to say something:

Current transitions and things that need to be done in the near future:
 * imagemagick:
   - Bugs filed (double-check), porters need to prodded, might be done
     in a week
   - adsb is tracking it
 * liblo:
   - Hanging on sivp, bugs needs to be filed, might be solved by removing
   -  HE is tracking it
 * python2.6:
   - Phase 1: add support for 2.6 for multi-python-supporting packages
   - Phase 2:
     + build packages for default version 2.6
     + Known open issues:
       http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=python2.6;users=debian-python@...
   - aba is tracking it
 * mpi-default switch:
   - might lead to arch-specific problems
   - lucas will try a switch to mpich2 on amd64 to find possible
     problems, report to -release@
 * parted:
   - Colin sent mail to -release, detailing everything needed
   - phil is tracking it

Some other transitions we know about and have discussed in some detail:
 * eglibc:
   - waiting in experimental, waiting for hppa-specific fixes (#573991)
   - lucas will do a rebuild to identify possible breakage
 * BLAS/LAPACK:
   - looks complicated, need more information
   - HE is tracking it
 * ruby1.9 -> ruby1.9.1:
   - already ongoing (20 packages, half done)
   - needs to fix ruby1.9.1/sparc FTBFS (new kernel?)
   - HE is tracking it

Remaining transitions:
 * directfb
   - relatively small, but coupled to gtk/cairo (gtk will be decoupled
     once the g-i switch from directfb to X.org is done, pochu is
     going to upload the relevant packages)
 * icu
 * boost -> 1.42 switch
 * qt4.6
 * KDE 4.4
 * Gnome 2.30 things
 * icedove3
 * Smaller stuff with probably no impact on the rest of testing/unstable

Timeline:
 (1) We should finish at least imagemagick and liblo
 (2) We might be able to switch the python default to 2.6 after that,
     which will be a massive transition breaking anything in its path.
 (3) We can do directfb and icu at the same time (either after or before
     python2.6)
 (4) boost, qt4.6 and kde4.4 touch the same packages and should not be
     done at the same time to avoid a horrible mess - seems reasonable to
     do boost before qt4.6 and kde4.4 last. Input from the KDE team would
     be nice.

 We calculated about a week to 10 days for (1). We might be a bit faster
 than that.

 (2), the python switch, will most probably take two to four weeks, if
 nothing horrible pops up. This involves a massive binNMU campaign of
 ~200 packages plus a number of sourceful uploads.

 This would imply that we can reasonably expect to be done with the
 python2.6 switch around end of april. Afterwards, we will need to get
 everything done that couldn't move due to python2.6. A freeze in late
 may/june seems to be possible, if people work hard on getting these
 transitions done.

Release Update:
  We want to write one till the end of the week. Topics:
   * Give an overview over the current release situation (transition
     status, bugginess, release goal status)
   * Discuss our plans for the future, including the timeline from above
     and any changes that may be discussed on -release in the meantime.
   * Point out when we want to freeze, and that this depends on the work
     of all developers. Give a short primer in "how to make Debian
     release":
      (1) fix your own bugs
      (2) fix someone elses bugs
      (3) fix your bugs that popped up during (2)
      (4) only upload stuff that you consider stable
      (5) go out and buy a party hat
      (6) celebrate the release
   * Warn that we will remove RC-buggy packages if there is no
     maintainer reaction. Explain that getting back in after you've
     fixed the bug is easy, so a removal is not as bad as people might
     think.
   * Call for help: We need more release people
     Use one of the planned transitions to explain what the usual work
     is (approximate impact, get as many bugs as possible fixed before
     starting the actual transition, prod buildds and maintainers to get
     all packages into the right state, shove it all into testing)
   * New RM:
     None, for now. All release team members have full authority on all
     issues.

Marc
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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Sune Vuorela-2
On 2010-03-16, Marc Brockschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  * python2.6:
>    - Phase 1: add support for 2.6 for multi-python-supporting packages
>    - Phase 2:
>      + build packages for default version 2.6
>      + Known open issues:
>        http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=python2.6;users=debian-python@...
>    - aba is tracking it

>  * qt4.6
>  * KDE 4.4

>  (2), the python switch, will most probably take two to four weeks, if
>  nothing horrible pops up. This involves a massive binNMU campaign of
>  ~200 packages plus a number of sourceful uploads.

KDEbindings currently doesn't build. No one plans to fix the kde 4.3
kdebindings, as we are moving to kde 4.4 anyways.

Also note tha KDE 4.4 is introducing various new things, and of course
possible regressions, as it is the result of quite big development
effort, and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
have a couple of months with real users testing it.
(KDE is a too big piece of software to have all use patterns tested
by the maintainers)

We have prepared both qt4.6 and the kde libraries with symbol files to
ease testing transitions, and for both Qt and KDE core libraries, there
are no SONAME changes involved.
(Note that symbol files for c++ things isn't always fully working, as
something might be picked up due to magic involving templates or inline
functions)

/Sune
 - one of the friendly KDE people


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Jurij Smakov
In reply to this post by Marc Brockschmidt-4
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:28:58PM +0100, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:

> Heya,
>
> We had a short, rather spontaneous (arranged this afternoon) meeting in
> #debian-release. Here are the notes, feel free to comment if anything
> seems weird, plain wrong or otherwise makes you wish to say something:
>
> Current transitions and things that need to be done in the near future:
>  * imagemagick:
>    - Bugs filed (double-check), porters need to prodded, might be done
>      in a week
>    - adsb is tracking it
>  * liblo:
>    - Hanging on sivp, bugs needs to be filed, might be solved by removing
>    -  HE is tracking it
>  * python2.6:
>    - Phase 1: add support for 2.6 for multi-python-supporting packages
>    - Phase 2:
>      + build packages for default version 2.6
>      + Known open issues:
>        http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=python2.6;users=debian-python@...
>    - aba is tracking it
>  * mpi-default switch:
>    - might lead to arch-specific problems
>    - lucas will try a switch to mpich2 on amd64 to find possible
>      problems, report to -release@
>  * parted:
>    - Colin sent mail to -release, detailing everything needed
>    - phil is tracking it
>
> Some other transitions we know about and have discussed in some detail:
>  * eglibc:
>    - waiting in experimental, waiting for hppa-specific fixes (#573991)
>    - lucas will do a rebuild to identify possible breakage
>  * BLAS/LAPACK:
>    - looks complicated, need more information
>    - HE is tracking it
>  * ruby1.9 -> ruby1.9.1:
>    - already ongoing (20 packages, half done)
>    - needs to fix ruby1.9.1/sparc FTBFS (new kernel?)
>    - HE is tracking it

Marc, I think we've put sufficient effort into trying to reproduce
this sparc failure outside of buildds and failed in all cases.
Personally, I'm fine with doing a porter upload for it to move things
forward, if the release team is ok with it.

Best regards,
--
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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Felipe Sateler
In reply to this post by Marc Brockschmidt-4
On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 22:28 +0100, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:
>  * liblo:
>    - Hanging on sivp, bugs needs to be filed, might be solved by
> removing

Ehm, how does sivp affect liblo? I cannot find a chain from liblo to
sivp...

--
Saludos,
Felipe Sateler



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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt-3
Felipe Sateler <[hidden email]> writes:
> On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 22:28 +0100, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:
>>  * liblo:
>>    - Hanging on sivp, bugs needs to be filed, might be solved by
>> removing
> Ehm, how does sivp affect liblo? I cannot find a chain from liblo to
> sivp...

freej is depending on both liblo and opencv, which in turn can only go
into testing when sivp is done.

Marc
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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Lucas Nussbaum
In reply to this post by Jurij Smakov
On 16/03/10 at 22:18 +0000, Jurij Smakov wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:28:58PM +0100, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:
> >  * ruby1.9 -> ruby1.9.1:
> >    - already ongoing (20 packages, half done)
> >    - needs to fix ruby1.9.1/sparc FTBFS (new kernel?)
> >    - HE is tracking it
>
> Marc, I think we've put sufficient effort into trying to reproduce
> this sparc failure outside of buildds and failed in all cases.
> Personally, I'm fine with doing a porter upload for it to move things
> forward, if the release team is ok with it.

I've already done that a few weeks ago (after asking for permission), to
allow the package to migrate to testing and stop blocking a lot of other
packages. However, it would be better to find a long term solution
(allowing to build the package on the buildds).
--
| Lucas Nussbaum
| [hidden email]   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: [hidden email]             GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Marc Haber-32
In reply to this post by Sune Vuorela-2
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:02:05PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
> from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
> have a couple of months with real users testing it.

So you would want to have the freeze delayed even more to accomodate
you?

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Sune Vuorela-2
On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:02:05PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
>> from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
>> have a couple of months with real users testing it.
>
> So you would want to have the freeze delayed even more to accomodate
> you?

We would have uploaded several weeks ago if the release team hadn't
asked us to wait.

We are so far good citizens and wait, and hopes that the rest of debian
will gives us the possibility to also deliver something good.

/Sune


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Marc Haber-32
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 02:13:42PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:

> On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:02:05PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> >> and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
> >> from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
> >> have a couple of months with real users testing it.
> >
> > So you would want to have the freeze delayed even more to accomodate
> > you?
>
> We would have uploaded several weeks ago if the release team hadn't
> asked us to wait.

Did they state a reason?

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Sune Vuorela-2
On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 02:13:42PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:02:05PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> >> and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
>> >> from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
>> >> have a couple of months with real users testing it.
>> >
>> > So you would want to have the freeze delayed even more to accomodate
>> > you?
>>
>> We would have uploaded several weeks ago if the release team hadn't
>> asked us to wait.
>
> Did they state a reason?

They want to break the archives with some transitions before they let us
break the archive.

/Sune


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Marc Haber-32
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 03:15:32PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:

> On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 02:13:42PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> >> On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:02:05PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> >> >> and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
> >> >> from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
> >> >> have a couple of months with real users testing it.
> >> >
> >> > So you would want to have the freeze delayed even more to accomodate
> >> > you?
> >>
> >> We would have uploaded several weeks ago if the release team hadn't
> >> asked us to wait.
> >
> > Did they state a reason?
>
> They want to break the archives with some transitions before they let us
> break the archive.

That sounds like a perfectly valid reason, allowing you to enter your
transition without having to think about others. A KDE transition is
hard enough even when one doesn't need to think about a truckload of
other transitions that may interfere.

Greetings
Marc


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Sune Vuorela-2
On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 03:15:32PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 02:13:42PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> >> On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:02:05PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> >> >> and we would really like to have more than a couple of weeks
>> >> >> from 'upload to unstable' to 'debian freeze'. We kind of expected to
>> >> >> have a couple of months with real users testing it.
>> >> >
>> >> > So you would want to have the freeze delayed even more to accomodate
>> >> > you?
>> >>
>> >> We would have uploaded several weeks ago if the release team hadn't
>> >> asked us to wait.
>> >
>> > Did they state a reason?
>>
>> They want to break the archives with some transitions before they let us
>> break the archive.
>
> That sounds like a perfectly valid reason, allowing you to enter your
> transition without having to think about others. A KDE transition is
> hard enough even when one doesn't need to think about a truckload of
> other transitions that may interfere.

I'm not arguing about the validity of their reasons. I'm stating that it
gives us much less user testing than we would like, and that it might
hurt the quality of KDE in debian.

It is also a problem that the longer we wait for a new major kde release
to put it in debian, the harder it is to get upstream to care for the
problems we get into.

And it is also a problem for the KDE team that we are working hard to
get something ready in order to just get stalled by other things. This
also hurts our ability to attract and keep new people for the Debian KDE
team as it might take months for their work to be able to reach the
archive.

And this btw happens at almost every release.

/Sune
  -  hoping to one day get to 'less waiting' and more 'release early
     release often'


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Marc Haber-32
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 04:35:48PM +0000, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> It is also a problem that the longer we wait for a new major kde release
> to put it in debian, the harder it is to get upstream to care for the
> problems we get into.

Afaics as a mere user, KDE upstream stops caring about their releases
about the second the tarball is out of the door.

> And it is also a problem for the KDE team that we are working hard to
> get something ready in order to just get stalled by other things. This
> also hurts our ability to attract and keep new people for the Debian KDE
> team as it might take months for their work to be able to reach the
> archive.

KDE is a huge pile  of code with an even higher number of dependencies,
which is neither easy nor fast to maintain.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Sune Vuorela-2
On 2010-03-17, Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> And it is also a problem for the KDE team that we are working hard to
>> get something ready in order to just get stalled by other things. This
>> also hurts our ability to attract and keep new people for the Debian KDE
>> team as it might take months for their work to be able to reach the
>> archive.
>
> KDE is a huge pile  of code with an even higher number of dependencies,
> which is neither easy nor fast to maintain.

We could - and would like to have - a much higher upload frequency. KDE
is a large codebase,  yes, but there is also quite many easy corners of
KDE, that new people can work on.  It is just hard to keep them when
their changes takes months to reach the users.

With no uploads, we lose momentum, and without momentum, KDE is not easy
nor fast to maintain.

/Sune


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Francesco P. Lovergine-4
In reply to this post by Marc Brockschmidt-4
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:28:58PM +0100, Marc Brockschmidt wrote:
> Heya,
>
> We had a short, rather spontaneous (arranged this afternoon) meeting in
> #debian-release. Here are the notes, feel free to comment if anything
> seems weird, plain wrong or otherwise makes you wish to say something:
>

I noted you missed mentioning Tcl/Tk at all. Any toughts about that?

http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2010/03/msg00192.html

Note that experimental now has 8.5 as default tcl and tk, so we
are going to ask for a round of binNMUs for that for several
packages.

--
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Re: Notes on IRC meeting

Sune Vuorela-2
In reply to this post by Sune Vuorela-2
On 2010-03-16, Sune Vuorela <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2010-03-16, Marc Brockschmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>  * python2.6:
>>    - Phase 1: add support for 2.6 for multi-python-supporting packages
>>    - Phase 2:
>>      + build packages for default version 2.6
>>      + Known open issues:
>>        http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=python2.6;users=debian-python@...
>>    - aba is tracking it
>
>>  * qt4.6
>>  * KDE 4.4
>
>>  (2), the python switch, will most probably take two to four weeks, if
>>  nothing horrible pops up. This involves a massive binNMU campaign of
>>  ~200 packages plus a number of sourceful uploads.

Getting the fix for issues like this:
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.ports.arm/8388 fast into
unstable would also be quite interesting.

/Sune


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