Proposal: Focus on systemd

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Proposal: Focus on systemd

Martin Michlmayr
I'd like submit the following proposal:

Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation

This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
Debian constitution:

Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
with time.

Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
costs.

Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.

Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.

---

Thanks to Enrico Zini, Michael Biebl and others for help with
drafting this proposal.

--
Martin Michlmayr
https://www.cyrius.com/

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Michael Biebl-3
Am 29.11.19 um 21:16 schrieb Martin Michlmayr:

> I'd like submit the following proposal:
>
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
>
Thank you Martin.

Seconded.


--
Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the
universe are pointed away from Earth?


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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Ansgar Burchardt-8
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
Martin Michlmayr writes:

> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
Seconded.

Ansgar

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Julien Cristau-6
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:

> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
>
Seconded.

Cheers,
Julien

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Enrico Zini
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:

> I'd like submit the following proposal:
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation

Seconded.


Enrico

--
GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini <[hidden email]>

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Matthias Klumpp-2
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
Am 29.11.19 um 21:16 schrieb Martin Michlmayr:

> I'd like submit the following proposal:
>
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
>
> ---
>
> Thanks to Enrico Zini, Michael Biebl and others for help with
> drafting this proposal.
>
Thank you for putting this together!
Seconded by me as well.


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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Paul R. Tagliamonte-2
In reply to this post by Julien Cristau-6
Seconded

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 3:54 PM Julien Cristau <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
>
Seconded.

Cheers,
Julien
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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Ana Guerrero Lopez
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:

> I'd like submit the following proposal:
>
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
Seconded, thanks.

Ana


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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Russ Allbery-2
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
I second the below amendment.

Martin Michlmayr <[hidden email]> writes:

> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation

> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:

> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.

> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.

> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.

> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.

--
Russ Allbery ([hidden email])              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Luca Filipozzi-3
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and
> cross-distribution cooperation

Seconded.

--
Luca Filipozzi

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Kurt Roeckx
In reply to this post by Paul R. Tagliamonte-2
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 04:01:38PM -0500, Paul R. Tagliamonte wrote:
> Seconded

That wasn't signed.


Kurt

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

intrigeri-4
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
> I'd like submit the following proposal:
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation

Seconded.

--
intrigeri

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Kurt Roeckx
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> I'd like submit the following proposal:
>
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation

So I counted enough seconds and it's on the website now.


Kurt

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Luca Filipozzi-3
In reply to this post by Luca Filipozzi-3
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 09:17:58PM +0000, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and
> > cross-distribution cooperation
>
> Seconded.

Let me sign this before Kurt responds.

--
Luca Filipozzi

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Kurt Roeckx
In reply to this post by Luca Filipozzi-3
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 09:17:58PM +0000, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and
> > cross-distribution cooperation
>
> Seconded.

The message was nog signed.


Kurt

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Moritz Muehlenhoff
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
Martin wrote:

> I'd like submit the following proposal:
>
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distributio=
> n cooperation

I second this proposal.

Cheers,
        Moritz

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Paul Tagliamonte-3
In reply to this post by Kurt Roeckx
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:57:22PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 09:17:58PM +0000, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> > > Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and
> > > cross-distribution cooperation
> >
> > Seconded.
>
> The message was nog signed.

Ooops,

Seconded.

>
>
> Kurt
>

paultag

--
 .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte <[hidden email]>
: :'  : Proud Debian Developer
`. `'`  4096R / FEF2 EB20 16E6 A856 B98C E820 2DCD 6B5D E858 ADF3
 `-     http://people.debian.org/~paultag

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Jordi Mallach
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:16:10PM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> I'd like submit the following proposal:
>
> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation

Seconded.

--
Jordi Mallach <[hidden email]>

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Sam Hartman-3
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
Hi.

I'm trying to figure out if the new proposal is redundant with proposal
C.  The text is obviously very different, but I'm trying to figure out
if there are any practical differences.  Understand this is not a
criticism of this proposal, but if there are no significant practical
differences I am enclined to withdraw Proposal C.

Differences I notice:

* The preamble is shorter.  I think it has the same effect though.  If
  the intente of Proposal F is to limit our ability to change things if
  we reach a consensus more than proposal C, I'd like to see this more
  explicitly spelled out.  However, my current assumption is that as a
  statement under 4.1(5) it would be reasonable for project consensus
  should it diverge from this GR to guide the project without repealing
  the GR.

* The text about working with downstreams is different.
Unless explicitly directed otherwise by the project I at least plan to
continue to work with downstreams and help them figure out where their
efforts can be contributed and where they cannot.
So, I don't see this as a change.

* The language about using systemd facilities is even stronger than that
  in proposal C.

Are there any other changes that actually effect what maintainers could
or could not do between proposal C and F?

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Re: Proposal: Focus on systemd

Philipp Kern-6
In reply to this post by Martin Michlmayr
On 11/29/2019 9:16 PM, Martin Michlmayr wrote:

> Proposal: Focus on systemd to promote standardization and cross-distribution cooperation
>
> This resolution is a position statement under section 4.1 (5) of the
> Debian constitution:
>
> Cross-distribution standards and cooperation are important factors in
> the choice of core Debian technologies.  It is important to recognize
> that the Linux ecosystem has widely adopted systemd and that the level
> of integration of systemd technologies in Linux systems will increase
> with time.
>
> Debian is proud to support and integrate many different technologies.
> With everything we do, the costs and benefits need to be considered,
> both for users and in terms of the effects on our development community.
> An init system is not an isolated component, but is deeply integrated in
> the core layer of the system and affects many packages.  We believe that
> the benefits of supporting multiple init systems do not outweigh the
> costs.
>
> Debian can continue to provide and explore other init systems, but
> systemd is the only officially supported init system.  Wishlist bug
> reports with patches can be submitted, which package maintainers should
> review like other bug reports with patches.  As with systemd, work
> should be done upstream and in cooperation with other Linux and FOSS
> distributions where possible.  The priority is on standardization
> without the reliance on complicated compatibility layers.
>
> Integrating systemd more deeply into Debian will lead to a more
> integrated and tested system, improve standardization of Linux systems,
> and bring many new technologies to our users.  Packages can rely upon,
> and are encouraged to make full use of, functionality provided by
> systemd.  Solutions based on systemd technologies will allow for more
> cross-distribution cooperation.  The project will work on proposals and
> coordinate transitions from Debian-specific solutions where appropriate.
Seconded. Thank you for putting this onto the ballot.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern


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