Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

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Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-2

Speaking as an individual, although some of the things that motivated me
to actually go ahead and ask this question knowing that it might spark
discussion were conversations I had as DPL.

Obviously this question is motivated by things that happened last year,
but I'm not asking about that situation, and the details of the question
I'm asking are intentionally different in ways that matter at least to
me.

I am asking this question because in multiple conversations with members
of our community related situations have come up and I'd like to better
understand how we think we should approach disagreement in use of a
shared resource.

Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.

I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.

They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
conversation.

What should I do?

1) Add the blog back myself, asking the person to appeal to the planet
admins if they still think my blog should not be present?

2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either help me
understand the problem or add my blog back.


In my mind the question pops up because we have two conflicting things.
It's not really clear that random developers should be removing blogs
from planet.  On the other hand planet is a shared service and if there
really is a critical issue, it's better to get it fixed.

However, revert wars are antisocial in and of themselves.

--Sam

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Ian Jackson-2
Sam Hartman writes ("Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog"):

> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
> removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
> to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
> wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.
>
> I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.
>
> They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
> conversation.
>
> What should I do?

Does the answer to this question depend very much on whether it's
Planet that's the territory for the revert war ?

ISTM that the same can be true of bugs.d.o at the very least, and
salsa, and, in principle, even the archive.  In theory there is
supposed to be a maintainer to decide, but the maintainer may be away
or simply not responding, or the package may be QA maintained, or
whatever.

I suppose you are asking the Planet admins and they won't necessarily
have an answer.  But maybe owner@bugs or d-release or ftpmaster may
want to say how they think these things should be dealt with in their
areas of responsibility (specifically, before or in the absence of a
specific authoritative answer from that team on the issue in
question).  That might be illuminating.

Ian.

--
Ian Jackson <[hidden email]>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-3
>>>>> "Ian" == Ian Jackson <[hidden email]> writes:

    Ian> Sam Hartman writes ("Question for Planet Admins: What Should I
    Ian> do if another Developer Removes my Blog"):
    >> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they
    >> have removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are
    >> saying enough to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly
    >> believe I did something wrong.  I can't understand from their
    >> message how they hope I'd fix it.
    >>
    >> I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.
    >>
    >> They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
    >> conversation.
    >>
    >> What should I do?

    Ian> Does the answer to this question depend very much on whether
    Ian> it's Planet that's the territory for the revert war ?

    Ian> ISTM that the same can be true of bugs.d.o at the very least,
    Ian> and salsa, and, in principle, even the archive.

That's why I'm asking the planet admins.  I'd argue that in general we
delegate responsibility to people to run services as they choose.
It's more complex than that of course, but it's certainly common for us
to give people wide latitude to do their jobs.

So planet admins might well take a different approach than owner@bts or
salsa or...
And absent some project-wide policy or an override or something I think
the planet admins do get to decide for planet.

I think the general question is interesting, and a very reasonable
answer from the planet admins might be "We haven't thought this one
through, let's have a general discussion."

If people do decide to have the general discussion I'd appreciate it if
they were to change the subject.

--Sam

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-2
Hi Sam

On 2019/05/21 12:15, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Obviously this question is motivated by things that happened last year,
> but I'm not asking about that situation, and the details of the question
> I'm asking are intentionally different in ways that matter at least to
> me.

It's kind of hard to ignore that case in a discussion like this, because
a blog removal seems somewhat rare and that was a prominent case.

> I am asking this question because in multiple conversations with members
> of our community related situations have come up and I'd like to better
> understand how we think we should approach disagreement in use of a
> shared resource.

I think of Planet Debian than more as just a shared resource, it's a
window into the world of Debian developers from the world outside, it's
also a way for Debian developers to follow what's happening in each
other's lives, and it also provides a voice for those who use it.

That said, people associate Planet Debian with the Debian project
itself, and while it's fine for people to disagree with the Debian
project on their blogs that get aggregated, I think that it's important
that the content itself doesn't directly violate our core community
guidelines (CoC, diversity statement, etc).

> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
> removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
> to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
> wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.
>
> I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.
>
> They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
> conversation.
>
> What should I do?
>
> 1) Add the blog back myself, asking the person to appeal to the planet
> admins if they still think my blog should not be present?
>
> 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either help me
> understand the problem or add my blog back.

Option number two seems like the entirely logical and reasonable
approach. If it seems that you've overstepped it doesn't seem like a
good idea to antagonize the admins any further, so I don't think that
just adding the blog back without any further feedback is every a good idea.

> In my mind the question pops up because we have two conflicting things.
> It's not really clear that random developers should be removing blogs
> from planet.  On the other hand planet is a shared service and if there
> really is a critical issue, it's better to get it fixed.
>
> However, revert wars are antisocial in and of themselves.

Debian developers shouldn't just remove a blog from planet without
justification, I think that should be codified in the planet
rules/guidelines somewhere.

If you make a bad upload, someone will be quick to point out to you
exactly which part of debian policy you've messed up and file an RC bug
against your package. Our community guidelines deserve to be on the same
standard, if a blog is removed from planet Debian, it makes sense that
there's at least a good reason for that, no?

-Jonathan

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc>
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-3
>>>>> "Jonathan" == Jonathan Carter <[hidden email]> writes:

    >> 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either
    >> help me understand the problem or add my blog back.

    Jonathan> Option number two seems like the entirely logical and
    Jonathan> reasonable approach. If it seems that you've overstepped
    Jonathan> it doesn't seem like a good idea to antagonize the admins
    Jonathan> any further, so I don't think that just adding the blog
    Jonathan> back without any further feedback is every a good idea.

What antagonizes the planet admins is kind of at the crux of this
question now isn't it?
And the answer to that depends on their needs and goals.

I'll say that if I were a planet admin, like you, I'd prefer option two.

But multiple people with different outlooks from each other have been
talking to me about this.  And to them, option 1 was so obviously right
in our community that they didn't even consider that there might be
another answer.

And I found myself having arguments about what the planet admins surely
must think.  I decided that since I can go actually talk to the planet
admins and find out, that might be educational on a number of fronts.

--Sam

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Joerg Jaspert
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-2
On 15409 March 1977, Sam Hartman wrote:

> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
> removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
> to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
> wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.

> I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.

> They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
> conversation.

We may just want to wait to see the other side comment.

Now, Planet is kind of a special thing here, with its config being
deliberately editable by everyone in the Debian group on salsa. Yes, we
DO have the rule to modify YOUR OWN entry or that of someone you
sponsor/advocate.

And that is what happens in >99% of the cases. The "some random someone
modifies others without consent" is not really a case. So less so that I
think this whole thread already wasted more energy than it is worth. By
a lot. Look at the git log of planets config, ignoring my recent
removals of dead entries, you won't see other people randomly removing
stuff. And if they modify other people, you find "by request" or
something.

The one case back when which made you start this was also not done by
some random meatbag out there and the log message even said so. (Please,
validity of AH team with/without delegation is for another thread).

So I do not really see any big problem here that needs to be solved. We
certainly have way bigger ones to tackle.

Still, lets see...

> What should I do?

> 1) Add the blog back myself, asking the person to appeal to the planet
> admins if they still think my blog should not be present?

> 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either help me
> understand the problem or add my blog back.

Both of them are good. I think #2 might be better, especially if its
marked like that one case in the past. May ensure heat not going up
needlessly.

> In my mind the question pops up because we have two conflicting things.
> It's not really clear that random developers should be removing blogs
> from planet.  On the other hand planet is a shared service and if there
> really is a critical issue, it's better to get it fixed.

> However, revert wars are antisocial in and of themselves.

One revert is not a war. One revert MAY make other people angry, so meh,
not directly reverting may be the better way.


Anyways, I do not think we need much more rules currently for planet. It
works pretty nicely. Assume common sense, it's what I as an admin do.

Also:

 - If a blog appears hacked and spams planet - anyone is fine to remove
   it ASAP, do not wait for admins. (Happened)
 - If someone asks you to modify or remove their entry, fine, go. (Happened)
 - If you see a merge request on salsa for planet where someone wants to
   change their stuff - go go go, apply it, anyone (in Debian group)
   can. (Happened)
 - If you happen to login to the planet-master machine, read the planet
   logs and spot stuff like NXDOMAIN or HTTP 500/404/... errors, feel
   free to remove it (or make it a MR), with a log msg along "Removed,
   NXDOMAIN", so its clear why it got removed.
 - For anything else think twice if it needs direct action, if not, mail
   planet admin.

--
bye, Joerg

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Benj. Mako Hill
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-2
Greetings!

I'm a planet admin although, as you suggest, I think this is outside
of the area of documented policy.

<quote who="Sam Hartman" date="Tue, May 21, 2019 at 06:15:05AM -0400">

> Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
> removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
> to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
> wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.
>
> I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.
>
> They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
> conversation.
>
> What should I do?
The problems caused by a revert war are greater than the threat of a
person not being on planet for a short period of time. As a result, I
think it's best not to start a "war" by reverting a change without
first understanding or attempting to address the underlying problem or
getting feedback from the planet admins that the problem that caused
removal in the first place can be ignored.

As a result, I think the preferred approach would be your (2):

> 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either help
> me understand the problem or add my blog back.

If somebody removes a feed from planet because they think it is on the
wrong side of appropriate behavior within Debian, the appropriate
first step is to discuss it with the parties involved. I think it's
part of the planet admins' job to mediate this conversation.

If consensus on an outcome cannot be reached this way, the
conversation will likely need to move a mailing list and/or leadership
within the project.

I'd be happy to document this on the Planet wiki page.

I understand that this approach gives everyone with access to the
repository on salsa the power to temporary silence anyone else. I
think that the benefits of this level of openness (documented in the
list of actions Joerg shared) are high enough that they outweigh he
risks this introduces.

Regards,
Mako

--
Benjamin Mako Hill
https://mako.cc/

Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far
as society is free to use the results. --GNU Manifesto

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Scott Kitterman-5
On Tuesday, May 21, 2019 7:41:51 PM EDT Benj. Mako Hill wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> I'm a planet admin although, as you suggest, I think this is outside
> of the area of documented policy.
>
> <quote who="Sam Hartman" date="Tue, May 21, 2019 at 06:15:05AM -0400">
>
> > Imagine that I get a note from a random developer saying they have
> > removed my blog from planet.  I understand what they are saying enough
> > to believe it is not vandalism; they honestly believe I did something
> > wrong.  I can't understand from their message how they hope I'd fix it.
> >
> > I cannot engage with them in what I think is a timely manner.
> >
> > They copied the planet admins who have not gotten involved in the
> > conversation.
> >
> > What should I do?
>
> The problems caused by a revert war are greater than the threat of a
> person not being on planet for a short period of time. As a result, I
> think it's best not to start a "war" by reverting a change without
> first understanding or attempting to address the underlying problem or
> getting feedback from the planet admins that the problem that caused
> removal in the first place can be ignored.
>
> As a result, I think the preferred approach would be your (2):
> > 2) Ask the planet admins to respond to the situation and either help
> > me understand the problem or add my blog back.
>
> If somebody removes a feed from planet because they think it is on the
> wrong side of appropriate behavior within Debian, the appropriate
> first step is to discuss it with the parties involved. I think it's
> part of the planet admins' job to mediate this conversation.
>
> If consensus on an outcome cannot be reached this way, the
> conversation will likely need to move a mailing list and/or leadership
> within the project.
>
> I'd be happy to document this on the Planet wiki page.
>
> I understand that this approach gives everyone with access to the
> repository on salsa the power to temporary silence anyone else. I
> think that the benefits of this level of openness (documented in the
> list of actions Joerg shared) are high enough that they outweigh he
> risks this introduces.

The Planet Debian admins are, IMO, free to run the service however they want
(thank you for providing it).

I think defaulting to silencing people is the opposite of openness.

I don't recall for certain how much blogging there was about systemd during
that debacle (irrelvant to the goodness/badness of the final result, the
process was ugly), but I can imagine if something similarly controversial
comes up in the future, deletions from Planet Debian being rather more common
in the heat of the moment if we codify a policy that endorses random DDs
removing feeds from Planet Debian.

I think it's more open and equally clean for someone who's blog has been non-
consensually removed to be able to put it back themselves immediately (if they
think the removal was unreasonable) and point the remover at the Planet Debian
admins.

There should be consistency about what is OK and not and it's the Planet
Debian admins that can apply that.  Yes, we have a CoC, but if something is OK
CoC wise or not is not generally a clear cut decision.  If there's a problem,
I think (absent some of the types of cases Joerg mentioned) that people with
concerns should be asking the admins to address it and not unilaterally
applying their personal standards to a project resource.

Scott K



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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Norbert Preining-5
On Tue, 21 May 2019, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> I think it's more open and equally clean for someone who's blog has been non-
> consensually removed to be able to put it back themselves immediately (if they
> think the removal was unreasonable) and point the remover at the Planet Debian
> admins.

Agreed. If this is not the case, what would come next? Arbitrary take
over of package maintainership because we are unhappy with how X
maintains their packages.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert                               http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc.     +    JAIST     +    TeX Live     +    Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Philip Hands
In reply to this post by Scott Kitterman-5
Scott Kitterman <[hidden email]> writes:
...
> I think defaulting to silencing people is the opposite of openness.

It does not strike me as defaulting to silencing people, to allow the
people we all effectively trust with root on all of our systems (DDs) to
exercise their judgement, and very occasionally apply it to ensure that
reputational damage does not accrue to Debian from a misjudged blog post.

> I don't recall for certain how much blogging there was about systemd
> during ...

If someone does start using this as a weapon, I'm sure we'll work out
that they probably don't deserve the trust implicit in being a DD.

Apparently (as Jorg pointed out) it has not happened to date (not even
during the heat of the systemd debate) so I see no reason to assume the
worst.

I hope that the fact that you apparently have more pessimistic
expectations does not indicate that you would find it acceptable to
remove someone else's blog simply because you disagree with them.

Cheers, Phil.
--
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/    http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,    GERMANY

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-3
In reply to this post by Benj. Mako Hill
>>>>> "Benj" == Benj Mako Hill <[hidden email]> writes:

    Benj> I'd be happy to document this on the Planet wiki page.


I agree with Joerg that I don't think we need a lot of new rules here.
I'll point out that the situation I asked about has never happened
(although one close to it in some ways did), and it feels premature to
go set policy based on a hypothetical.

My take away is that there are complexities in situations like this.
Sometimes when you have technical access to do something but it's
unclear when you should use that technical access, acting may be the
right thing to do.  When that happens talking a lot is often a really
good next step.
Escalating the situation is something I'd personally recommend against.

--Sam

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-3
In reply to this post by Norbert Preining-5
>>>>> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining <[hidden email]> writes:

    Norbert> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Scott Kitterman wrote:
    >> I think it's more open and equally clean for someone who's blog
    >> has been non- consensually removed to be able to put it back
    >> themselves immediately (if they think the removal was
    >> unreasonable) and point the remover at the Planet Debian admins.

    Norbert> Agreed. If this is not the case, what would come next?
    Norbert> Arbitrary take over of package maintainership because we
    Norbert> are unhappy with how X maintains their packages.

First, removing something from planet is much more akin to an NMU than
a maintainer change.
And NMUs do happen all the time.  And there are procedures and policies,
and they are often followed.  When they are not, sometimes it's hardly
even remarked because the solution was so obviously the right thing.
And sometimes it sparks significant discussion.

The same is true of package maintainership though.  We sometimes do
change the maintainership because we're unhappy with how someone
maintains their packages.  That rarely uses the formal policy that goes
before the TC who have the constitutional power to decide who maintains
a package.
Sometimes when a package maintainer is changed the response is hardly a
squeak: it was generally regarded as the right thing.  Sometimes it
sparks a lot of discussion.

And how people use the technical powers they have gets factored into our
continuing estimate of trust of those people.

As a matter of technical capability we can all do a bunch of arbitrary
things.  As a matter of practice we sometimes do things that according
to written policies and procedures seem kind of arbitrary.  And if
anyone has a problem with it, we discuss and work towards either
agreement that the arbitrary thing isn't something we want or an
understanding of why it is something we want.

It's frustrating if you want hard and fast written rules.  But it works
a lot better than if we did try to write down those rules.

--Sam

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Charles Plessy-12
In reply to this post by Philip Hands
Hi Phil,

Le Wed, May 22, 2019 at 01:37:07PM +0200, Philip Hands a écrit :
>
> I see no reason to assume the worst.

Maybe growth and the law of big numbers ?  The more we are the more it
is likely to happen.

As somebody who had my work reverted temporarly by somebody who acted
alone (although motivated by good faith and his common sense), I can
tell that even though my work was later reinstantiated and the other
person (indireclty) punished, it costed me a disproportionate amount of
time and frustration.

So as a conclusion of this thread, I would be happy to read something
like "when tempted to block somebody elses contribution, do not trust
your common sense and seek the opinion of other people in charge before
taking action".

Have a nice day,

Charles

--
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Akano, Uruma, Okinawa, Japan

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Ian Campbell-5
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
On Tue, 2019-05-21 at 18:27 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> If you make a bad upload, someone will be quick to point out to you
> exactly which part of debian policy you've messed up and file an RC bug
> against your package. Our community guidelines deserve to be on the same
> standard, if a blog is removed from planet Debian, it makes sense that
> there's at least a good reason for that, no?

I suppose the big difference is that while we have a reasonably (or at
least tollerably) good understanding of right/wrong from a technical
PoV (~policy) we have nothing like such a good shared understanding of
social norms/acceptability, so one person's "good reason" to act is not
necessarily sufficient for the next and in fact might well be
considered unnecessarily inflamatory or antagonistic.

Ian.

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Mathias Behrle-10
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
* Karsten Merker: " Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another
  Developer Removes my Blog" (Sat, 25 May 2019 17:49:13 +0200):

Hi together,

I am supporting wholeheartedly the view of Carsten with some small amendments.

> a) As the general rule DDs who are not part of planet admin
>    should IMHO never forcibly remove somebody else's feed from
>    planet on their own.  The planet admins run the service and
>    whether a feed gets removed from planet is solely their
>    decision (of course subject to a possible override by the
>    means defined in our constitution).
>
> b) The only case where I would consider a forced removal of
>    somebody else's feed by somebody who is not part of planet
>    admin to be justified would be if the further inclusion of the
>    feed on planet would constitute a criminal offence in the
>    jurisdiction where the webserver that serves planet.debian.org
>    is located, and in this case that would have to be clearly
>    stated by the person performing the removal.

It may go without saying (but explicit is better than implicit):

Such a procedure should only be justified in emergency cases that require
immediate action and if no planet admin is available in due time. And of course
it should be confirmed/reverted ASAP by the planet admins.

> c) The onus of proof that there are sufficient reasons to remove
>    somebody else's feed and the onus of going through the
>    procedure of contacting the planet admins and convincing them
>    to take action clearly has to be on the person who wants other
>    people's content removed, and not the other way around.

I would wish a documentation of the reasons in the best possible transparent
way. I know other people expressed their reservation to not create some impact
on the public image of the blocked feedowner by communicating too many details,
but there is also the interest of the project and its members to know as
exactly as possible about the reasons. Finally we all (can) know and be
aware about such implications when we join Debian and that we will be acting
(and perhaps be subject of evaluation) in the public.

> While the feedowner in question should of course consider other
> people's views on the feed's contents, as a consequence of the
> previous points, restoring the feed would IMHO be a legitimate
> action unless either the issue is covered by point b) or the
> planet admins have taken a decision against further inclusion of
> the feed on planet and have already communicated this decision to
> the feedowner.

Cheers,
Mathias

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    Mathias Behrle ✧ Debian Developer
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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 05:49:13PM +0200, Karsten Merker wrote:
> b) The only case where I would consider a forced removal of
>    somebody else's feed by somebody who is not part of planet
>    admin to be justified would be if the further inclusion of the
>    feed on planet would constitute a criminal offence in the
>    jurisdiction where the webserver that serves planet.debian.org
>    is located
 
I can think of *much* annoying or disturbing content which is 100%
legal, please don't make me show you...

To start with a harmless example, starting tomorrow I will post 42 cat
pics in 4k resolution, per hour.


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tschau,
        Holger

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Scott Kitterman-5


On May 25, 2019 9:16:09 PM UTC, Holger Levsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 05:49:13PM +0200, Karsten Merker wrote:
>> b) The only case where I would consider a forced removal of
>>    somebody else's feed by somebody who is not part of planet
>>    admin to be justified would be if the further inclusion of the
>>    feed on planet would constitute a criminal offence in the
>>    jurisdiction where the webserver that serves planet.debian.org
>>    is located
>
>I can think of *much* annoying or disturbing content which is 100%
>legal, please don't make me show you...
>
>To start with a harmless example, starting tomorrow I will post 42 cat
>pics in 4k resolution, per hour.

Annoying, but no emergency.  Exactly the kind of case that should be passed to and left for the planet admins.

Scott K

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Norbert Preining-5
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
Hi Sam,

surprising statements from you ...

On Wed, 22 May 2019, Sam Hartman wrote:
> The same is true of package maintainership though.  We sometimes do
> change the maintainership because we're unhappy with how someone
> maintains their packages.  That rarely uses the formal policy that goes

??? This seems to be new - at least when I became DD some 10+ years ago
this was not the case, and it was completely out of discussion to do
this.

Why would we need "package salvaging" (thanks Paul for that!)
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch05.en.html#package-salvaging
if we can change package maintainership just like that?

I will remember your statement the next time I consider another
maintainers packaging efforts insufficient.

> As a matter of technical capability we can all do a bunch of arbitrary
> things.  As a matter of practice we sometimes do things that according
> to written policies and procedures seem kind of arbitrary.  And if

I am not sure what you mean with *we*, but I am sure that most "normal"
DD are not allowed to overstep the rules that easily.

> It's frustrating if you want hard and fast written rules.  But it works
> a lot better than if we did try to write down those rules.

I agree with you that having less rules would be much better - that is
exactely what I proposed back then when the CoC was introduced. But
Debian tries to govern even the most ungovernable things with rules.

So all in all, your position is very surprising, and I can only assume
that the rules and acceptable behaviour you are talking about are others
than those that apply to the average DD.

Best

Norbert

--
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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-3
In reply to this post by Mathias Behrle-10
>>>>> "Mathias" == Mathias Behrle <[hidden email]> writes:

    Mathias> * Karsten Merker: " Re: Question for Planet Admins: What
    Mathias> Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog" (Sat, 25
    Mathias> May 2019 17:49:13 +0200):

    Mathias> Hi together,

    Mathias> I am supporting wholeheartedly the view of Carsten with
    Mathias> some small amendments.

In this whole discussion I've been speaking as an individual developer.

I find your position and that of Carsten  confusing.

At one level you're arguing that we're not planet admins and should not
do planet admin things.

But then you spend the rest of the message saying how planet should be
run...you spend the rest of the message actually trying to assert the
sorts of things that you said ought to be left up to the planet admins.

And the planet admins have already spoken on this issue and they don't
agree with you.  Joerg's message made it clear that the situation is
more nuanced than Carsten's approach, and Mako went even further than
Joerg.

I'm confused when you respond after the planet admins do without taking
their points into account.

I've certainly confirmed my original suspicion that our community has a
wide set of views on this issue.

--Sam

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Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog

Sam Hartman-3
In reply to this post by Norbert Preining-5
>>>>> "Norbert" == Norbert Preining <[hidden email]> writes:

    Norbert> Hi Sam, surprising statements from you ...

    Norbert> On Wed, 22 May 2019, Sam Hartman wrote:
    >> The same is true of package maintainership though.  We sometimes
    >> do change the maintainership because we're unhappy with how
    >> someone maintains their packages.  That rarely uses the formal
    >> policy that goes

    Norbert> ??? This seems to be new - at least when I became DD some
    Norbert> 10+ years ago this was not the case, and it was completely
    Norbert> out of discussion to do this.

I'm reasonably sure there are situations over the years where we as a
community have concluded that a package highjack was acceptable.
I might be wrong.

I'm quite confident there are cases where someone has started NMUing a
package because a maintainer is inactive and has eventually declared
themselves the maintainer without following the letter of documented
practice.

    Norbert> Why would we need "package salvaging" (thanks Paul for
    Norbert> that!)
    Norbert> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch05.en.html#package-salvaging
    Norbert> if we can change package maintainership just like that?

Because "just like that" involves a lot of careful thought, sometimes a
flamewar, and sometimes long discussions of whether something is the
right answer.

When we've done something enough that it's worth writing down a right
answer ahead of time to shortcircuit discussions, we sometimes do.

Package salvaging is in my mind one of those cases.

    Norbert> I will remember your statement the next time I consider
    Norbert> another maintainers packaging efforts insufficient.

OK. but let's make sure you understand what I'm saying fully.
I'm saying that as a DD you have the technical capability to change the
maintainership of any package.

If you do that outside of the written procedures you should be prepared
to defend your actions and suffer consequences if the community
disagrees with you.

Imagine that you write to d-devel, propose some action and get a fair
bit of support.  But you didn't quite wait long enough or the maintainer
pops up just as you do the upload or something.  It's likely the only
consequence will be that we might conclude  as a community the best
option is to revert your action.

If you don't ask for input and go off wildly on your own it's likely the
consequences will be significant.

My point is that as a community we don't typically jump at "you broke
this rule, bad!"
We typically also think about whether enough good was served to justify
breaking the rule and whether you might have found a case where the rule
was poorly crafted.



    >> As a matter of technical capability we can all do a bunch of
    >> arbitrary things.  As a matter of practice we sometimes do things
    >> that according to written policies and procedures seem kind of
    >> arbitrary.  And if

    Norbert> I am not sure what you mean with *we*, but I am sure that
    Norbert> most "normal" DD are not allowed to overstep the rules that
    Norbert> easily.

I don't think it is easy at all.
Going and doing something and then waiting to see whether the community
agrees with you that unusual action is justified doesn't seem easy to
me.

My point is that the planet admins are taking a position that seems
fairly consistent to me with the same position we take for package
maintainership.  Normally, you follow the written rules.  Sometimes
there are exceptions.  If you act on what you believe is one of the
exceptions, then the community's trust in your actions will be
re-evaluated based on whether the community agrees with what you did.

--Sam

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