RFC: New Member Process documentation

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RFC: New Member Process documentation

Pierre-Elliott Bécue-3
Dear WWW Team,

After a discussion with Enrico, we both agreed on the fact that the
documentation on the official Debian Website regarding the New Member
Process (ie https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and subpages) was needing
some changes :

 1. It was a bit outdated, eg the steps didn't match what the nm.d.o
    site currently shows
 2. It's hard to maintain for DAM when the added value of being on the
    official website instead of the wiki is low to nought.
 3. Developer's and Non-Developer's contributions are also hard to get,
    while they could improve both the exhaustivity and the readability
    of the documentation.
 4. Still, there is a need for some elements to remain on the official
    site.

We agreed that wiki.d.o/DebianDeveloper was probably a nice namespace to
move that documentation to, and to clean up a bit, too, at the same
time.

So, I created https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject and
many subpages :

 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMemberCheckList
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember/StatusChangeStep
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember/IntentStep
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember/CommitmentsStep
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember/AdvocacyStep
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember/IdentificationStep
 - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper/JoinTheProject/NewMember/ApplicationManagerStep

This is a work in progress, and although it seems reasonable to expect that
we'll proceed with that or some variant, we would like to ask you your opinion
as this would include wiping https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* pages and
rework https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ (Enrico has draft a patch for the
join page).

I tried to incorporate anything I know about the NM Process, with Enrico's
help, but I'm pretty sure this is far from perfect. If you have remarks on the
content, these are more than welcome!

Thanks in advance, and cheers!

--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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Re: RFC: New Member Process documentation

Laura Arjona Reina-4
Hello all

Note: this is my personal opinion, not a consensus reply from the team.
Also, maybe other things come to mind later, but now that I'm in front
of the computer, I prefer to reply than leaving it for a later that can
be too late. Any other feedback is welcome!

El 20/4/20 a las 20:59, Pierre-Elliott Bécue escribió:

> Dear WWW Team,
>
> After a discussion with Enrico, we both agreed on the fact that the
> documentation on the official Debian Website regarding the New Member
> Process (ie https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and subpages) was needing
> some changes :
>
>  1. It was a bit outdated, eg the steps didn't match what the nm.d.o
>     site currently shows
>  2. It's hard to maintain for DAM when the added value of being on the
>     official website instead of the wiki is low to nought.

Probably in another thread (or maybe in an IRC chat some day you like),
but I really appreciate more details about what could we do to make
website sections easier to maintain (so we help other teams in similar
situations).

For now, we try with:
* We're in git (but still carrying the bad fame from CVS times?)
* Maintainers only need to care about the /english folder, translators
will care about the rest
* Technically it's wml+perl but in fact it's mostly very basic HTML
* The team accepts contributions via almost any channel (bts, salsa,
mailing list...) and we're happy to provide commit permissions to
whoever wants to maintain pages...
* Questions/comments/ask for help in our IRC channel/mailing list are
usually replied quickly.

You say later that you would like to keep some parts (even if minimal)
on the website so if we can help in any way, just tell.

>  3. Developer's and Non-Developer's contributions are also hard to get,
>     while they could improve both the exhaustivity and the readability
>     of the documentation.

Sorry, this point I didn't understand.

>  4. Still, there is a need for some elements to remain on the official
>     site.
>
 > We agreed that wiki.d.o/DebianDeveloper was probably a nice namespace to
I'll try to have a look at the wiki pages and compare with the current
website pages.

The worse part of moving the stuff to the wiki would be to lose the
translations, probably. Maybe most of the content would be rewritten in
 and we would lose them anyway, but AFAIK there are more teams working
in translating the website than the wiki (this could be alleviated by a
call for translations, maybe).
In any case, if you move some parts directly without changes (certain
paragraphs), maybe it would be nice to leave a note for translators
somehow so they can copy their translation too, saving work.

we would like to ask you your opinion
> as this would include wiping https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* pages

I don't know which other places in Debian (documentation, packages, wiki
pages, policy...) the https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm*  are
mentioned, but maybe it's good to set a list of redirects that we can
add to the Apache configuration of the website, so people are driven to
the new pages.
We would need a bit of help from your part with that (the list of old
pages to delete and the corresponding new pages).

and
> rework https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ (Enrico has draft a patch for the
> join page).
>

Thanks!

> I tried to incorporate anything I know about the NM Process, with Enrico's
> help, but I'm pretty sure this is far from perfect. If you have remarks on the
> content, these are more than welcome!
>

Feel free to create a branch under the webwml repo, if you prefer

https://salsa.debian.org/webmaster-team/webwml/

or use the BTS (www.debian.org pseudopackage), as you wish.

Now, with my publicity team hat, I think it would be nice to publish
some news item (article in bits.debian.org or other) explaining the
move/rework so the new documentation/info pages arrive to a wider
audience, and reduces frustration of people trying to find the old
pages. Ping us at debian-publicity to coordinate that, if you find it is
a good idea.

Kind regards,
--
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

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Re: RFC: New Member Process documentation

Enrico Zini
[Readding Pierre-Elliott to the recipient list, overquoting for context]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:05:46PM +0200, Laura Arjona Reina wrote:

> Hello all
>
> Note: this is my personal opinion, not a consensus reply from the team.
> Also, maybe other things come to mind later, but now that I'm in front
> of the computer, I prefer to reply than leaving it for a later that can
> be too late. Any other feedback is welcome!
>
> El 20/4/20 a las 20:59, Pierre-Elliott Bécue escribió:
> > Dear WWW Team,
> >
> > After a discussion with Enrico, we both agreed on the fact that the
> > documentation on the official Debian Website regarding the New Member
> > Process (ie https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and subpages) was needing
> > some changes :
> >
> >  1. It was a bit outdated, eg the steps didn't match what the nm.d.o
> >     site currently shows
> >  2. It's hard to maintain for DAM when the added value of being on the
> >     official website instead of the wiki is low to nought.
>
> Probably in another thread (or maybe in an IRC chat some day you like),
> but I really appreciate more details about what could we do to make
> website sections easier to maintain (so we help other teams in similar
> situations).
>
> For now, we try with:
> * We're in git (but still carrying the bad fame from CVS times?)
> * Maintainers only need to care about the /english folder, translators
> will care about the rest
> * Technically it's wml+perl but in fact it's mostly very basic HTML
> * The team accepts contributions via almost any channel (bts, salsa,
> mailing list...) and we're happy to provide commit permissions to
> whoever wants to maintain pages...
> * Questions/comments/ask for help in our IRC channel/mailing list are
> usually replied quickly.
>
> You say later that you would like to keep some parts (even if minimal)
> on the website so if we can help in any way, just tell.
Good point, and I really appreciate the recent changes, to the point
that I now feel comfortable attempting submitting patches!
 
The thing I personally still find hard is to test my patches before
sending them. So far I edited blind, hoping not to embarass myself and
waste your time mistyping html tags and similar things.


> >  3. Developer's and Non-Developer's contributions are also hard to get,
> >     while they could improve both the exhaustivity and the readability
> >     of the documentation.
>
> Sorry, this point I didn't understand.


> >  4. Still, there is a need for some elements to remain on the official
> >     site.
> >
> > We agreed that wiki.d.o/DebianDeveloper was probably a nice namespace to
> > move that documentation to, and to clean up a bit, too, at the same
> > time.
[...]

> > This is a work in progress, and although it seems reasonable to expect that
> > we'll proceed with that or some variant,
>
> I'll try to have a look at the wiki pages and compare with the current
> website pages.
>
> The worse part of moving the stuff to the wiki would be to lose the
> translations, probably. Maybe most of the content would be rewritten in
>  and we would lose them anyway, but AFAIK there are more teams working
> in translating the website than the wiki (this could be alleviated by a
> call for translations, maybe).
> In any case, if you move some parts directly without changes (certain
> paragraphs), maybe it would be nice to leave a note for translators
> somehow so they can copy their translation too, saving work.
Effectively all of https://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint was out of
date enough to need rewriting. Pierre-Elliott did the rewrite and can
tell if and how much text can be salvaged.

On the other hand, technical details of the NM process refer to a
process that happens in English only, and might not benefit much from
translation. Moving the details of the NM process to the wiki would also
have the advantage of allowing the people who are going through the
process to work on the documentation on the spot. For example,
nm.debian.org pages like https://nm.debian.org/process/699/intent
have a "Wiki help" link on top, which links to the corresponding wiki
documentation, and if it's insufficient people can ask [hidden email] or
#debian-newmaint and then update the page.

Translation remains a good idea, I think, for https://www.debian.org/devel/join/
which also document membership in Debian in general. I think it's
important that that page stays on www.debian.org, as it provides an
official description of membership workflows, which is something that we
need together with https://nm.debian.org/members


> we would like to ask you your opinion
> > as this would include wiping https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* pages
>
> I don't know which other places in Debian (documentation, packages, wiki
> pages, policy...) the https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm*  are
> mentioned, but maybe it's good to set a list of redirects that we can
> add to the Apache configuration of the website, so people are driven to
> the new pages.
> We would need a bit of help from your part with that (the list of old
> pages to delete and the corresponding new pages).

> and
> > rework https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ (Enrico has draft a patch for the
> > join page).
>
> Thanks!

I'll send it in a day or so.


> > I tried to incorporate anything I know about the NM Process, with Enrico's
> > help, but I'm pretty sure this is far from perfect. If you have remarks on the
> > content, these are more than welcome!
>
> Feel free to create a branch under the webwml repo, if you prefer
>
> https://salsa.debian.org/webmaster-team/webwml/
>
> or use the BTS (www.debian.org pseudopackage), as you wish.
>
> Now, with my publicity team hat, I think it would be nice to publish
> some news item (article in bits.debian.org or other) explaining the
> move/rework so the new documentation/info pages arrive to a wider
> audience, and reduces frustration of people trying to find the old
> pages. Ping us at debian-publicity to coordinate that, if you find it is
> a good idea.
I like this idea!

Probably it's also time for a news item about the recent single signon
changes, and nm.debian.org UI improvements.


Enrico

--
GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini <[hidden email]>

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Re: RFC: New Member Process documentation

Pierre-Elliott Bécue-3
Le mardi 21 avril 2020 à 15:24:02+0200, Enrico Zini a écrit :
> [Readding Pierre-Elliott to the recipient list, overquoting for context]

Yep, I'm not on da-manager@ as I'm no DAM, and I'm not on [hidden email] either,
so please keep me in Cc. :)

> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:05:46PM +0200, Laura Arjona Reina wrote:
>
> > Hello all
> >
> > Note: this is my personal opinion, not a consensus reply from the team.
> > Also, maybe other things come to mind later, but now that I'm in front
> > of the computer, I prefer to reply than leaving it for a later that can
> > be too late. Any other feedback is welcome!
> >
> > El 20/4/20 a las 20:59, Pierre-Elliott Bécue escribió:
> > > Dear WWW Team,
> > >
> > > After a discussion with Enrico, we both agreed on the fact that the
> > > documentation on the official Debian Website regarding the New Member
> > > Process (ie https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ and subpages) was needing
> > > some changes :
> > >
> > >  1. It was a bit outdated, eg the steps didn't match what the nm.d.o
> > >     site currently shows
> > >  2. It's hard to maintain for DAM when the added value of being on the
> > >     official website instead of the wiki is low to nought.
> >
> > Probably in another thread (or maybe in an IRC chat some day you like),
> > but I really appreciate more details about what could we do to make
> > website sections easier to maintain (so we help other teams in similar
> > situations).
> >
> > For now, we try with:
> > * We're in git (but still carrying the bad fame from CVS times?)
> > * Maintainers only need to care about the /english folder, translators
> > will care about the rest
> > * Technically it's wml+perl but in fact it's mostly very basic HTML
> > * The team accepts contributions via almost any channel (bts, salsa,
> > mailing list...) and we're happy to provide commit permissions to
> > whoever wants to maintain pages...
> > * Questions/comments/ask for help in our IRC channel/mailing list are
> > usually replied quickly.
> >
> > You say later that you would like to keep some parts (even if minimal)
> > on the website so if we can help in any way, just tell.
>
> Good point, and I really appreciate the recent changes, to the point
> that I now feel comfortable attempting submitting patches!
>
> The thing I personally still find hard is to test my patches before
> sending them. So far I edited blind, hoping not to embarass myself and
> waste your time mistyping html tags and similar things.
Maybe the way I phrased the thing in my original email is not the best.
What I meant is that there is a (legitimate) process to follow that
isn't really relevant to maintain the documentation about how one can
technically join the project and what are the steps.

For the parts DAM intend to keep on the site, like who gets to decide
who becomes developer, and how one leaves/loses his status, this is
clearly a good idea to still have on the website!

> > >  3. Developer's and Non-Developer's contributions are also hard to get,
> > >     while they could improve both the exhaustivity and the readability
> > >     of the documentation.
> >
> > Sorry, this point I didn't understand.

Well, for someone trying to join and currently in the NM process, it's
harder to submit a patch to www team, patch that would have to
potentially be reviewed by the NM people, than to edit a wiki page.

> > >  4. Still, there is a need for some elements to remain on the official
> > >     site.
> > >
> > > We agreed that wiki.d.o/DebianDeveloper was probably a nice namespace to
> > > move that documentation to, and to clean up a bit, too, at the same
> > > time.
> [...]
> > > This is a work in progress, and although it seems reasonable to expect that
> > > we'll proceed with that or some variant,
> >
> > I'll try to have a look at the wiki pages and compare with the current
> > website pages.
> >
> > The worse part of moving the stuff to the wiki would be to lose the
> > translations, probably. Maybe most of the content would be rewritten in
> >  and we would lose them anyway, but AFAIK there are more teams working
> > in translating the website than the wiki (this could be alleviated by a
> > call for translations, maybe).
I was intending to ask aroundd if people were eager to create the
translations.

> > In any case, if you move some parts directly without changes (certain
> > paragraphs), maybe it would be nice to leave a note for translators
> > somehow so they can copy their translation too, saving work.
>
> Effectively all of https://www.debian.org/devel/join/newmaint was out of
> date enough to need rewriting. Pierre-Elliott did the rewrite and can
> tell if and how much text can be salvaged.

I salvaged bits, but bits that are incorporated in other bits that are
from me, I don't know if that wouldn't be easier to translate the pages
without trying to retain these bits from the previous translations.

> On the other hand, technical details of the NM process refer to a
> process that happens in English only, and might not benefit much from
> translation. Moving the details of the NM process to the wiki would also
> have the advantage of allowing the people who are going through the
> process to work on the documentation on the spot. For example,
> nm.debian.org pages like https://nm.debian.org/process/699/intent
> have a "Wiki help" link on top, which links to the corresponding wiki
> documentation, and if it's insufficient people can ask [hidden email] or
> #debian-newmaint and then update the page.
>
> Translation remains a good idea, I think, for https://www.debian.org/devel/join/
> which also document membership in Debian in general. I think it's
> important that that page stays on www.debian.org, as it provides an
> official description of membership workflows, which is something that we
> need together with https://nm.debian.org/members
The wiki has a translation system through subcategories lying in each
language's namespace, so translating the pages I created would be
possible and maybe make some sense.

> > we would like to ask you your opinion
> > > as this would include wiping https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm* pages
> >
> > I don't know which other places in Debian (documentation, packages, wiki
> > pages, policy...) the https://www.debian.org/devel/join/nm*  are
> > mentioned, but maybe it's good to set a list of redirects that we can
> > add to the Apache configuration of the website, so people are driven to
> > the new pages.
> > We would need a bit of help from your part with that (the list of old
> > pages to delete and the corresponding new pages).
Sure! I can create that mapping when you get the new page patch by
Enrico.

> > and
> > > rework https://www.debian.org/devel/join/ (Enrico has draft a patch for the
> > > join page).
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> I'll send it in a day or so.
>
>
> > > I tried to incorporate anything I know about the NM Process, with Enrico's
> > > help, but I'm pretty sure this is far from perfect. If you have remarks on the
> > > content, these are more than welcome!
> >
> > Feel free to create a branch under the webwml repo, if you prefer
> >
> > https://salsa.debian.org/webmaster-team/webwml/
> >
> > or use the BTS (www.debian.org pseudopackage), as you wish.
> >
> > Now, with my publicity team hat, I think it would be nice to publish
> > some news item (article in bits.debian.org or other) explaining the
> > move/rework so the new documentation/info pages arrive to a wider
> > audience, and reduces frustration of people trying to find the old
> > pages. Ping us at debian-publicity to coordinate that, if you find it is
> > a good idea.
>
> I like this idea!
>
> Probably it's also time for a news item about the recent single signon
> changes, and nm.debian.org UI improvements.
I could try to write such a news, if you'd like, Enrico.

Cheers,

--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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