Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
To: Debian-Edu team and Holger Levsen

Holger Levsen gave me great advices about ML and terminology,
so I send my reply to ML now.

On 5/8/19 10:38 PM, Holger Levsen wrote:

> On Mon, May 06, 2019 at 05:47:54PM +0900, [hidden email] wrote:
>> BTW, though I've just started translations on weblate,
>> I also felt a few Japanese expressions in the existing manual a bit fuzzy,
>> since I started reading them, "en" and "ja" versions.
>>
>> In other words, I'm confused.
>>
>> I don't think it's not time for discuss about them
>> on the debian-edu-ML, yet.
>  
> I *do* think it's much better to discuss this on the list. If you ask
> me, you only get my thoughts and only if I have time. On the list there
> are more people, so you might a.) get better replies and b.) faster

Thank you for telling me very kindly.

>> If you don't mind, please take a look at these,
>>
>> * "Architecture"
>>
>>    as a TOC title, and such like amd64.
>>    should they differ? or katakana only?
>
> sorry, I dont understand the question. "amd64" is one specific
> architecture, "i386" is the other one supported by Debian Edu.

I wrote some on the Weblate, and quote it here.

  Added extra explanations about "architecture" since it may confuse
  users; As a title and/or general English term, or as a technical term,
  CPU architecure such as amd64, arm, mips, or network architecture
  as topological design, etc.

  In addition to that, non-info-tech people in Japan may consider the
  term "architecture" as a building design, etc.

  In short, we should be very careful about the "architecture"
  in this manual; At least it could be one of "geranal term",
  "CPU arch", "network design".

  -- from the source;
  "The computers running Debian Edu / Skolelinux must have either
   32 bit (Debian architecture 'i386', oldest supported processors
   are 686 class ones) or 64 bit (Debian architecture 'amd64')
   x86 processors."

So, I translated,

* Wiki and manual's TOC title "Architecture"
   -> as something "overview of the system" in Japanese.

* CPU archs -> simply in katakana; it's de-fact standard tech term.

* Network "architecture" -> a bit implicit Japanese, not katakana.

I feel katakana "Architecture" may confuse people,
depending who and what kind of job work for.

e.g.)
* IT tech: both "structure of system" and "CPU arch"
* construction: "building"

Since Debian-Edu involves many fields,
I think there should be some explicit rules about this term.

>> * "Main server"
>>
>>    Fuzzy. I feel the Japanese term  as "a centric server",
>>
>>    And what kind of center, then?
>
> "Main server" is the term used in d-i when installing, see
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/Installation?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=08-Choose_Debian_Edu_profile.png
>
> so in the manual translation you should use what is used there
> (when doing the installation in Japanese), which according to
> https://sources.debian.org/src/debian-edu-install/2.10.21/debian/po/ja.po/#L40
> should be:
>
> msgid "Main Server"
> msgstr "主サーバ"

Yes, but in the Japanese manual, it's not.
That term "主サーバ" means "main" almost exactly.

Current Japanese manual uses different Japanese term.

I write about it below.

> Of course, I have no idea if thats a good translation :)
>
>>    e.g.) a classroom? a floor? a network segment?
>>          an entier school? school networks?
>>          (a school can have remote buildings and/or sites.)
>>
>>    Some Japanese may feel existing translation as "an exactly one",
>>    some may feel it just "central"; fuzzy about "an exact one."
>>
>>    To emphasize "exactly one main server, the tjener."
>>    some other Japanese expression can be considered.
>>
>>    I'm thinking about it; simply "main" in katakana or in kanji,
>>    or something like "stem", or "tjener" katakana expression.
>
> no idea, sorry.
>
>>    (I keep existing expressions, of course.)

In English manual, "main server" sounds fine for me.

On the other hand, current Japanese manual describes it
"中心サーバ", sounds like "centric server" or "center server".

For me, it (the Japanese one) sounds like "a center of circles or
some other structures"; something potentially multiple.

That's why I wrote the examples above. And,

* I cannot find the reason why it differs from "main".
* although "main" in katakana is common as a Japanese word,
* and "main server" is a very important term.

That's why I ask.

That name, "main server" should imply something numericaly single
and act as master, while "中心サーバ" ("center/centric server") does not.

My current suggestions and explanations/opinions:

1. "main" in katakana = "メインサーバー"
    it has less "master-slave" impication,
    and has "the one" implication.

2. "main" in kanji, msgstr above; "主サーバー"
  has more "master-slave" implication than "メインサーバー".

  Some may expect there are some "sub/slave servers"
     or something fault-torelant redeundant servers,

  I cannot explain about this nice and easy, sorry.

     * the kanji "主" implies its royal-servant/assitant,
       such like a phrase "主従".
       (Imagine some samurai like society.)

     * "主" also coupled with "副" = "sub",
        so "主サーバー" implies some "副サーバー(sub servers)"

3. "center" in kanji but slightly different from current one.

   + current one "中心" is "center" and/or "centric".

   + candidate, "中央" is "central" alike, feels more "only one",
     just like "central goverment", "central station", etc.

4. "tjener" in katakana, though I do not know how it sounds like.
    it would be unique, so "only one" implication there.

I myself cannot decide/choose about this.

In short:

* "main server" should have "single/only-one" numerical implication.
* current Japanese "中心" means less numerical; just positional.
* and it differs from "main". It's "center/centric".
* I think simple katakana version of "main server" works.

>> * "Default"
>>
>>    The term in Japanese itself (katakana one) is confusing.
>>
>>    For tech people it's "initial setting".
>>    For financial and news paper title, somthing like "a bankrupt".
>>
>>    I personally do not think "default" is a nice term.
>>
>>    Everytime I see it, I want to translate it into
>>    something like "initial setting".
>
> sorry, I fear I cannot help here...

Current Japanese manual uses katakana "デフォルト" for "default".

Tech people understand it, yes.

If the manual is just for those IT-tech people, I think it's fine,
just I do not like it; avoid using it.

FYI:
* "初期設定" = "initial setting" (strictly "initial")
* "標準設定" = "standard setting" (>= and/or != "initial setting")
* "factory setting"; it varies and long.

Because "out-of-box" are used in the English manual,
I personally recommend "初期設定(initial setting)" instead of
"デフォルト(default in katakana)".

>> * NIC names: ethN
>>
>>    Both Stretch and Buster now uses enpXsYfZ styles.
>>    
>>    Will it be changed?
>
> no

Then, perhaps some notes about it may make the manual
more friendly, I think, since ethN names are not listed
in /sys/class/net now.

>> * Japanese env in Debian
>>
>>    I think Google did a great job. fonts-noto and mozc.
>>
>>    There are too many Japanese input method editors,
>>    and unfortunately it would cause some problems.
>>
>>    I personally prefer Google Mozc - IBus with Noto fonts.
>>
>>    I wonder what some other Japanese people (in debian-edu-ML) think.
>
> ask the list :) maybe ask a Japanese debian user list instead of the Edu
> list? though there is at least one other Japanese speaker lurking on the
> list :)

True. I should ask the ja-ML (not now, later...)

I just expected if some one in edu knows some de-fact in Debian Edu.

Apology about this.

>> Thank you for reading this. Have a nice day.
>
> thanks & you too!

Thank you (again), sorry about very long and complicated post.

Regards.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

Holger Levsen-2
On Thu, May 09, 2019 at 01:27:23AM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
> Holger Levsen gave me great advices about ML and terminology,
> so I send my reply to ML now.

thank you. I'll reply to some bits of your mail and hope others will
chime in on the other questions.

> I wrote some on the Weblate, and quote it here.

(I'm not sure what you exactly mean here. So I will just make a general
comment: if you find that something is hard to translate, (usually) dont
try to make the translation more verbose. Instead, make the english
original more clear, so that all translations will benefit.)

>  Added extra explanations about "architecture" since it may confuse
>  users; As a title and/or general English term, or as a technical term,
>  CPU architecure such as amd64, arm, mips, or network architecture
>  as topological design, etc.
>
>  In addition to that, non-info-tech people in Japan may consider the
>  term "architecture" as a building design, etc.

the audience of the manual are *not* people who know nothing about
computers. the audience of the manual are teachers (and other people)
who have some knowledge about computers.

I know this is a vague definition of audience, but its better than
nothing ;)

>  In short, we should be very careful about the "architecture"
>  in this manual; At least it could be one of "geranal term",
>  "CPU arch", "network design".
>
>  -- from the source;
>  "The computers running Debian Edu / Skolelinux must have either
>   32 bit (Debian architecture 'i386', oldest supported processors
>   are 686 class ones) or 64 bit (Debian architecture 'amd64')
>   x86 processors."
>
> So, I translated,
>
> * Wiki and manual's TOC title "Architecture"
>   -> as something "overview of the system" in Japanese.
Ah. Yes, the chapter is called "Architecture", which is something quite
different from a "CPU architecture". Maybe we should indeed rename the
"Architecture" chapter into something else, like "Design" or "Design
principles".

That said, it's definitly also ok, to translate one English word into
two different Japanese/other language words, if the English one has two
meanings, like it has here.

> * CPU archs -> simply in katakana; it's de-fact standard tech term.
> * Network "architecture" -> a bit implicit Japanese, not katakana.
> I feel katakana "Architecture" may confuse people,
> depending who and what kind of job work for.

I trust you that you can find the right words in Japanese! :)

> e.g.)
> * IT tech: both "structure of system" and "CPU arch"
> * construction: "building"
>
> Since Debian-Edu involves many fields,
> I think there should be some explicit rules about this term.

which term exactly?

> > > * "Main server"
> > >
> > >    Fuzzy. I feel the Japanese term  as "a centric server",
> > >
> > >    And what kind of center, then?
> >
> > "Main server" is the term used in d-i when installing, see
> > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/Installation?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=08-Choose_Debian_Edu_profile.png
> >
> > so in the manual translation you should use what is used there
> > (when doing the installation in Japanese), which according to
> > https://sources.debian.org/src/debian-edu-install/2.10.21/debian/po/ja.po/#L40
> > should be:
> >
> > msgid "Main Server"
> > msgstr "主サーバ"
>
> Yes, but in the Japanese manual, it's not.
> That term "主サーバ" means "main" almost exactly.
>
> Current Japanese manual uses different Japanese term.
then please fix the manual! :) If "主サーバ" means "Main Server" and is
the term used in the software, than "主サーバ" should definitlty also be
used in the manual.

> On the other hand, current Japanese manual describes it
> "中心サーバ", sounds like "centric server" or "center server".

the current translation might very well be not the best possible one.

> I myself cannot decide/choose about this.

I hope now you can.

> Current Japanese manual uses katakana "デフォルト" for "default".
>
> Tech people understand it, yes.
>
> If the manual is just for those IT-tech people, I think it's fine,
> just I do not like it; avoid using it.

as said, the manual is for IT savy teachers.

> > ask the list :) maybe ask a Japanese debian user list instead of the Edu
> > list? though there is at least one other Japanese speaker lurking on the
> > list :)
> True. I should ask the ja-ML (not now, later...)

yes

> I just expected if some one in edu knows some de-fact in Debian Edu.
> Apology about this.

no need to apology! we definitly know about Debian Edu, just correct terms are
really a difficult things, eg. for long times we had
'thinclient-servers' which were much more than 'thinclient-servers' but
we kept using this name as it was stuck.

> > > Thank you for reading this. Have a nice day.
> > thanks & you too!
> Thank you (again), sorry about very long and complicated post.

that's very fine. it shows nicely how much effort you put into this.
(and you also correctly point out some difficulties in writing a
technical text :)


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
               holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
       PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
Dear Holger Levsen,

On 5/9/19 1:48 AM, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Thu, May 09, 2019 at 01:27:23AM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
>> Holger Levsen gave me great advices about ML and terminology,
>> so I send my reply to ML now.
>
> thank you. I'll reply to some bits of your mail and hope others will
> chime in on the other questions.

and I thank you, too; You encouraged me. I'm very happy.

>> I wrote some on the Weblate, and quote it here.
>
> (I'm not sure what you exactly mean here. So I will just make a general
> comment: if you find that something is hard to translate, (usually) dont
> try to make the translation more verbose. Instead, make the english
> original more clear, so that all translations will benefit.)

Perhaps, as you say, I also should consider about making
the original more clear; it is tough for me now, lacking knowledge.

As I start building my test env, I may be able to do it bit by bit.

>>   Added extra explanations about "architecture" since it may confuse
>>   users; As a title and/or general English term, or as a technical term,
>>   CPU architecure such as amd64, arm, mips, or network architecture
>>   as topological design, etc.
>>
>>   In addition to that, non-info-tech people in Japan may consider the
>>   term "architecture" as a building design, etc.
>
> the audience of the manual are *not* people who know nothing about
> computers. the audience of the manual are teachers (and other people)
> who have some knowledge about computers.
>
> I know this is a vague definition of audience, but its better than
> nothing ;)

Ack. I personally assume some "computer-nerd-school-teachers";)

>>   In short, we should be very careful about the "architecture"
>>   in this manual; At least it could be one of "geranal term",
>>   "CPU arch", "network design".
>>
>>   -- from the source;
>>   "The computers running Debian Edu / Skolelinux must have either
>>    32 bit (Debian architecture 'i386', oldest supported processors
>>    are 686 class ones) or 64 bit (Debian architecture 'amd64')
>>    x86 processors."
>>
>> So, I translated,
>>
>> * Wiki and manual's TOC title "Architecture"
>>    -> as something "overview of the system" in Japanese.
>
> Ah. Yes, the chapter is called "Architecture", which is something quite
> different from a "CPU architecture". Maybe we should indeed rename the
> "Architecture" chapter into something else, like "Design" or "Design
> principles".
>
> That said, it's definitly also ok, to translate one English word into
> two different Japanese/other language words, if the English one has two
> meanings, like it has here.
>
>> * CPU archs -> simply in katakana; it's de-fact standard tech term.
>> * Network "architecture" -> a bit implicit Japanese, not katakana.
>> I feel katakana "Architecture" may confuse people,
>> depending who and what kind of job work for.
>
> I trust you that you can find the right words in Japanese! :)

I got it. I'll try to find the right one.

Until then, I focus on reading/building-test-env to translate
the no-Japanese-translation-available sections.

>> e.g.)
>> * IT tech: both "structure of system" and "CPU arch"
>> * construction: "building"
>>
>> Since Debian-Edu involves many fields,
>> I think there should be some explicit rules about this term.
>
> which term exactly?

well, I'm no so sure. As you told me above,
the English "Architecture" in the guide should be one of,

1. "Design" or "Design principles" in Japanese, for titles and network.
2. "CPU and/or Debian Architecture"; simple katakana works.

(excluding some construction specific high schools; "building")

>>>> * "Main server"
>>>>
>>>>     Fuzzy. I feel the Japanese term  as "a centric server",
>>>>
>>>>     And what kind of center, then?
>>>
>>> "Main server" is the term used in d-i when installing, see
>>> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/Installation?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=08-Choose_Debian_Edu_profile.png
>>>
>>> so in the manual translation you should use what is used there
>>> (when doing the installation in Japanese), which according to
>>> https://sources.debian.org/src/debian-edu-install/2.10.21/debian/po/ja.po/#L40
>>> should be:
>>>
>>> msgid "Main Server"
>>> msgstr "主サーバ"
>>
>> Yes, but in the Japanese manual, it's not.
>> That term "主サーバ" means "main" almost exactly.
>>
>> Current Japanese manual uses different Japanese term.
>
> then please fix the manual! :) If "主サーバ" means "Main Server" and is
> the term used in the software, than "主サーバ" should definitlty also be
> used in the manual.

Okay.

I need to build my env ASAP to confirm
how "Debian Edu in Japanese" looks like first, then.

Give me some time for this.

>> On the other hand, current Japanese manual describes it
>> "中心サーバ", sounds like "centric server" or "center server".
>
> the current translation might very well be not the best possible one.
>
>> I myself cannot decide/choose about this.
>
> I hope now you can.

For the time being, I keep current "中心サーバー" in the maual.
When I'm convinced, I'll fix them.

>> Current Japanese manual uses katakana "デフォルト" for "default".
>>
>> Tech people understand it, yes.
>>
>> If the manual is just for those IT-tech people, I think it's fine,
>> just I do not like it; avoid using it.
>
> as said, the manual is for IT savy teachers.

Ack. I'll keep exisiting ones as it is.

>>> ask the list :) maybe ask a Japanese debian user list instead of the Edu
>>> list? though there is at least one other Japanese speaker lurking on the
>>> list :)
>> True. I should ask the ja-ML (not now, later...)
>
> yes

I subscribed the ML; read-only now...

>> I just expected if some one in edu knows some de-fact in Debian Edu.
>> Apology about this.
>
> no need to apology! we definitly know about Debian Edu, just correct terms are
> really a difficult things, eg. for long times we had
> 'thinclient-servers' which were much more than 'thinclient-servers' but
> we kept using this name as it was stuck.

Yes, it is hard to do; especially "client" and "workstation",
(I think most Japanese do not know/use them,
  except IT-techs and some enterprise class office workers.)

>>>> Thank you for reading this. Have a nice day.
>>> thanks & you too!
>> Thank you (again), sorry about very long and complicated post.
>
> that's very fine. it shows nicely how much effort you put into this.
> (and you also correctly point out some difficulties in writing a
> technical text :)
>
It is very true; writing/translating technical text simple, precise,
and easy, is VERY difficult. You Debian Edu team did it. Wow.

Regards.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

Holger Levsen-2
Dear hoxp18,

On Thu, May 09, 2019 at 02:25:08PM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
> and I thank you, too; You encouraged me. I'm very happy.

I'm very happy you're happy! Enjoy your journey!

> > (I'm not sure what you exactly mean here. So I will just make a general
> > comment: if you find that something is hard to translate, (usually) dont
> > try to make the translation more verbose. Instead, make the english
> > original more clear, so that all translations will benefit.)
> Perhaps, as you say, I also should consider about making
> the original more clear; it is tough for me now, lacking knowledge.

yes & yes! :)

> > the audience of the manual are *not* people who know nothing about
> > computers. the audience of the manual are teachers (and other people)
> > who have some knowledge about computers.
> >
> > I know this is a vague definition of audience, but its better than
> > nothing ;)
> Ack. I personally assume some "computer-nerd-school-teachers";)

yup, that's good.

> > I trust you that you can find the right words in Japanese! :)
> I got it. I'll try to find the right one.

yay!

> Until then, I focus on reading/building-test-env to translate
> the no-Japanese-translation-available sections.

sounds good.

> well, I'm no so sure. As you told me above,
> the English "Architecture" in the guide should be one of,
>
> 1. "Design" or "Design principles" in Japanese, for titles and network.
> 2. "CPU and/or Debian Architecture"; simple katakana works.

sounds good.
 
> I need to build my env ASAP to confirm
> how "Debian Edu in Japanese" looks like first, then.
>
> Give me some time for this.

sure!

> > the current translation might very well be not the best possible one.
> > > I myself cannot decide/choose about this.
> > I hope now you can.
> For the time being, I keep current "中心サーバー" in the maual.
> When I'm convinced, I'll fix them.

cool.

> > > True. I should ask the ja-ML (not now, later...)
> > yes
> I subscribed the ML; read-only now...

nice.

> Yes, it is hard to do; especially "client" and "workstation",
> (I think most Japanese do not know/use them,
>  except IT-techs and some enterprise class office workers.)

same in Germany :)

> It is very true; writing/translating technical text simple, precise,
> and easy, is VERY difficult. You Debian Edu team did it. Wow.

and *your work* will soon be part of it!


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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       PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
Dear Holger Levsen,

On 5/9/19 10:05 PM, Holger Levsen wrote:
>> well, I'm no so sure. As you told me above,
>> the English "Architecture" in the guide should be one of,
>>
>> 1. "Design" or "Design principles" in Japanese, for titles and network.
>> 2. "CPU and/or Debian Architecture"; simple katakana works.
>
> sounds good.

Okay. I'll try making them explicit in that way.

>> For the time being, I keep current "中心サーバー" in the maual.
>> When I'm convinced, I'll fix them.
>
> cool.

Got it. I'll do that way.

BTW Japanese veteran IT technician tends to omit the trailing
prolonged sound symbol; however, now, including Microsoft,
those are not recommended, I guess.

It's about "-er" part of "server"/"user"/"printer",
which correspond to "ー" in Japanese.

e.g.) I'm fixing "サーバ" into "サーバー", etc.

(It WAS useful when screen-resolution/net-bandwidth/etc. are limited.)

>> Yes, it is hard to do; especially "client" and "workstation",
>> (I think most Japanese do not know/use them,
>>   except IT-techs and some enterprise class office workers.)
>
> same in Germany :)

lol

Thank you for giving your time for me.
(It seems debian-devel is very hot.)

Regards.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
In reply to this post by hoxp18
To: Debian Edu team

I started building my isolated Debian Edu Buster env,
then I got a trouble around gateway.
(I have to start with gateway by personal issue)

It's about NIC name rules. ethN -> enpxxx

I'm not sure but I think Linus said something like "Just code it."

So I attach my "gateway's /etc/network/interfaces generator"

It's a bash script.

Tested on my new gateway Debian Edu Buster Minimal machine,
amd64(Kaby Lake) dual NIC.

It seems any other part works fine.
I only edit /etc/network/interfaces.

I'm now LAN cable shortage and not tested LAN side.
Just did some minimum tests. Apology for that.

Regards.

And this is also a re-sending message, as shown below.

On 5/10/19 10:47 PM, Holger Levsen wrote:

> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 09:57:12PM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
>> Dear Holger Levsen,
>>
>> On 5/8/19 10:38 PM, Holger Levsen wrote:
>>>> * NIC names: ethN
>>>>
>>>>     Both Stretch and Buster now uses enpXsYfZ styles.
>>>>     Will it be changed?
>>>
>>> no
>>
>> I tried Debian Edu Buster 2019-05-06 netinst,
>> Minimal Profile install on my amd64 dual NIC machine
>> to make it my gateway.
>>
>> eth0 and eth1 is preconfigured in /etc/network/interfaces,
>> but they fail when "service networking start".
>>
>> /sys/class/net shows the NICs as "enp0s31f6" and "enp1s0".
>>
>> I replaced eth0 and eth1 by them. Then it works.
>>
>>   WAN side: I confirmed by apt update.
>>   LAN side: not yet
>>   NAT: "systemctl status enable-nat.service" shows "active"
>>
>> Perhaps the manual and scripts should mention about it.
>
> yes, seems so.
>
>> What I'm considering now is something like this.
>>
>> $ find /sys/class/net ! -name net -a ! -name lo -exec basename \[\} \;
>> enp1s0
>> enp0s31f6
>> $ # and some more automated /etc/network/interfaces settings.
>> # cp new-interfaces /etc/network/interfaces
>> # service networking stop # and go on
>>
>> Since I just now have the gateway only,
>> I have no idea about this issue; I send this mail only for you.
>
> please resend to the list, this is a good question and I wont have time
> to reply in the next 24h, sorry. (also for this very brief email!)
Thank you for your quick and precise reply, Holger Levsen.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

Wolfgang Schweer-3
On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:53:45PM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
> I started building my isolated Debian Edu Buster env,
> then I got a trouble around gateway.
> (I have to start with gateway by personal issue)
>
> It's about NIC name rules. ethN -> enpxxx

> > > I tried Debian Edu Buster 2019-05-06 netinst,
> > > Minimal Profile install on my amd64 dual NIC machine
> > > to make it my gateway.
> > >
> > > eth0 and eth1 is preconfigured in /etc/network/interfaces,
> > > but they fail when "service networking start".
> > >
> > > /sys/class/net shows the NICs as "enp0s31f6" and "enp1s0".
> > >
> > > I replaced eth0 and eth1 by them. Then it works.
Please check /etc/default/grub, for the "Minimal" profile it should be:
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0 quiet"
If it isn't the case, adjust it and run 'update-grub' and reboot.

This makes sure that eth0 and eth1 are kept.

Wolfgang

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
Dear Wolfgang Schweer,

On 5/11/19 12:58 AM, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:

> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:53:45PM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
>> I started building my isolated Debian Edu Buster env,
>> then I got a trouble around gateway.
>> (I have to start with gateway by personal issue)
>>
>> It's about NIC name rules. ethN -> enpxxx
>
>>>> I tried Debian Edu Buster 2019-05-06 netinst,
>>>> Minimal Profile install on my amd64 dual NIC machine
>>>> to make it my gateway.
>>>>
>>>> eth0 and eth1 is preconfigured in /etc/network/interfaces,
>>>> but they fail when "service networking start".
>>>>
>>>> /sys/class/net shows the NICs as "enp0s31f6" and "enp1s0".
>>>>
>>>> I replaced eth0 and eth1 by them. Then it works.
>
> Please check /etc/default/grub, for the "Minimal" profile it should be:
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0 quiet"
> If it isn't the case, adjust it and run 'update-grub' and reboot.
>
> This makes sure that eth0 and eth1 are kept.
>
> Wolfgang

I completely had no idea about that kernel parameter.

I'll check-it and reinstall-the-gateway ASAP.
(Since I'm in LAN cables and KVM shortage;
  I have to do messy re-cabling for a while)

Thank you. Have a nice day.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

Frans Spiesschaert
Hi hoxp18,

hoxp18 schreef op za 11-05-2019 om 01:17 [+0900]:

> Dear Wolfgang Schweer,
>
> On 5/11/19 12:58 AM, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
> > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:53:45PM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
> > > I started building my isolated Debian Edu Buster env,
> > > then I got a trouble around gateway.
> > > (I have to start with gateway by personal issue)
> > >
> > > It's about NIC name rules. ethN -> enpxxx
> > > > > I tried Debian Edu Buster 2019-05-06 netinst,
> > > > > Minimal Profile install on my amd64 dual NIC machine
> > > > > to make it my gateway.
> > > > >
> > > > > eth0 and eth1 is preconfigured in /etc/network/interfaces,
> > > > > but they fail when "service networking start".
> > > > >
> > > > > /sys/class/net shows the NICs as "enp0s31f6" and "enp1s0".
> > > > >
> > > > > I replaced eth0 and eth1 by them. Then it works.
> >
> > Please check /etc/default/grub, for the "Minimal" profile it should
> > be:
> > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0 quiet"
> > If it isn't the case, adjust it and run 'update-grub' and reboot.
> >
> > This makes sure that eth0 and eth1 are kept.

An alternative is to switch to the new network interfaces naming
scheme: the release-notes for buster explain how to accomplish this.
See  https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/release-notes/amd64/release-note
s/ch-information.en.html#migrate-interface-names

Unfortunately the Japanese translation of that part of the release-
notes hasn't been updated yet.

> >
> > Wolfgang
>
> I completely had no idea about that kernel parameter.
>
> I'll check-it and reinstall-the-gateway ASAP.
> (Since I'm in LAN cables and KVM shortage;
>   I have to do messy re-cabling for a while)
>
> Thank you. Have a nice day.
>

--
Kind regards,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
Dear Frans Spiesschaert, Wolfgang Schweer,

On 5/11/19 2:02 AM, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:

> hoxp18 schreef op za 11-05-2019 om 01:17 [+0900]:
>> On 5/11/19 12:58 AM, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:53:45PM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
>>>>>> eth0 and eth1 is preconfigured in /etc/network/interfaces,
>>>>>> but they fail when "service networking start".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /sys/class/net shows the NICs as "enp0s31f6" and "enp1s0".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I replaced eth0 and eth1 by them. Then it works.
>>>
>>> Please check /etc/default/grub, for the "Minimal" profile it should
>>> be:
>>> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="net.ifnames=0 quiet"
>>> If it isn't the case, adjust it and run 'update-grub' and reboot.
>>>
>>> This makes sure that eth0 and eth1 are kept.
>
> An alternative is to switch to the new network interfaces naming
> scheme: the release-notes for buster explain how to accomplish this.
> See  https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/release-notes/amd64/release-note
> s/ch-information.en.html#migrate-interface-names

Both seems interesting for me. I'll try them as possible as I can.

IMHO, for Debian Edu Buster, keeping ethN scheme seems better,
with making sure about the kernel setting,
because both code and manual seems to keep ethN scheme.

When I build the gateway with plain Debian,
It seems I should switch to the new naming scheme,
using nftables instead of iptables.

BTW the page at ddp-team.pages.debian.net shows only 404 for me.
I guess it it because I'm accessing from Japan or some other auth
and/or firewall related, etc.

I'll read

https://www.debian.org/releases/testing/releasenotes
and the ch-information.en.html#migrate-interface-names page, instead.

Thank you for giving fine information.

Regards.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

Frans Spiesschaert
Hi hoxp18,

hoxp18 schreef op za 11-05-2019 om 08:35 [+0900]:

>
>
> On 5/11/19 2:02 AM, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:
> > An alternative is to switch to the new network interfaces naming
> > scheme: the release-notes for buster explain how to accomplish this.
> > See  https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/release-notes/amd64/release-note
> >
>
>
> BTW the page at ddp-team.pages.debian.net shows only 404 for me.
> I guess it it because I'm accessing from Japan or some other auth
> and/or firewall related, etc.

Oh I see. I did forget to turn off text wrapping in my email
client and so the link got split up.

This one should be fine:
https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/release-notes/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#migrate-interface-names

--
Kind regards,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

hoxp18
Dear Frans Spiesschaert,

On 5/11/19 11:57 PM, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:

>> On 5/11/19 2:02 AM, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:
>>> An alternative is to switch to the new network interfaces naming
>>> scheme: the release-notes for buster explain how to accomplish this.
>>> See  https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/release-notes/amd64/release-note
>>
>> BTW the page at ddp-team.pages.debian.net shows only 404 for me.
>> I guess it it because I'm accessing from Japan or some other auth
>> and/or firewall related, etc.
>
> Oh I see. I did forget to turn off text wrapping in my email
> client and so the link got split up.
>
> This one should be fine:
> https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/release-notes/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#migrate-interface-names

Thank you. It was me who completely missed that text wrap.
(and I tried accessing https://ddp-team.pages.debian.net/ -> 404)

I got the page. It's fine. It WAS fine. That was MY mistake. oh.

BTW, now, cables and another L2 switch are ready.
I can/will start checking the gateway issues, by gateway clean install.

(now I think it was just because of lacking LAN port side connection...
  anyway I'll try both methods you told me.)

planning something like this:
Internet -> primary gateway -> DHCP :gateway (amd64):static 10.0.0.1
                             -> L2 switch (10.0.0.0/8)
                              + Debian Edu main server (amd64) 10.0.2.2/8
                              + Debian Edu workstation (amd64)

Have a nice day.

Regards.

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Re: About Debian edu manual terminology, etc.

Wolfgang Schweer-3
In reply to this post by hoxp18
hi hoxp18,

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 08:35:52AM +0900, hoxp18 wrote:
> IMHO, for Debian Edu Buster, keeping ethN scheme seems better,
> with making sure about the kernel setting,
> because both code and manual seems to keep ethN scheme.

Yes. The intention has been to provide a working solution for
all potential users.
As far as the code is related, see:
https://salsa.debian.org/debian-edu/debian-edu-config/raw/master/cf3/cf.grub
 
> When I build the gateway with plain Debian,
> It seems I should switch to the new naming scheme,
> using nftables instead of iptables.

Sure.

Wolfgang

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