Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Ben Hutchings-3
"ipv6
        This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6."

This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing
networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all.  Many of these bugs
should not be release-critical.

Ben.

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Ben Hutchings
If you seem to know what you are doing, you'll be given more to do.

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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Petter Reinholdtsen

[Ben Hutchings]
> "ipv6
>         This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6."
>
> This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing
> networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all.  Many of these bugs
> should not be release-critical.

How is it different from the release goal?  Release goal bugs are not
necessarily release-critical (it is a goal, not a requirement) so I do
not understand your comment at all.

And the ipv6 goal is as far as I understand it about fixing all Debian
packages to work properly with ipv6, not just network programs,
whatever that is.

Happy hacking,
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Petter Reinholdtsen


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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Hendrik Sattler-3
In reply to this post by Ben Hutchings-3
Zitat von Ben Hutchings <[hidden email]>:

> "ipv6
>         This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6."
>
> This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing
> networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all.  Many of these bugs
> should not be release-critical.

Context? Can you make your post a bit less brief? Where does the  
citation comes from?

HS



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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Colin Watson
In reply to this post by Petter Reinholdtsen
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 09:19:08AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:

> [Ben Hutchings]
> > "ipv6
> >         This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6."
> >
> > This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing
> > networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all.  Many of these bugs
> > should not be release-critical.
>
> How is it different from the release goal?  Release goal bugs are not
> necessarily release-critical (it is a goal, not a requirement) so I do
> not understand your comment at all.

Ben is replying to a BTS notification that many of these bugs were
upgraded to severity 'serious' by Clint Adams.

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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)-3
In reply to this post by Hendrik Sattler-3
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 23-03-2010 05:35, Hendrik Sattler wrote:

> Zitat von Ben Hutchings <[hidden email]>:
>
>> "ipv6
>>         This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6."
>>
>> This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing
>> networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all.  Many of these bugs
>> should not be release-critical.
>
> Context?

        As pointed by Colin:

| Ben is replying to a BTS notification that many of these bugs were
| upgraded to severity 'serious' by Clint Adams.



> Can you make your post a bit less brief? Where does the
> citation comes from?

http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags

Kind regards,
- --
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Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!
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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Hendrik Sattler-3
Zitat von "Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)" <[hidden email]>:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 23-03-2010 05:35, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
>> Zitat von Ben Hutchings <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> "ipv6
>>>         This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6."
>>>
>>> This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing
>>> networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all.  Many of these bugs
>>> should not be release-critical.
>>
>> Context?
>
> As pointed by Colin:
>
> | Ben is replying to a BTS notification that many of these bugs were
> | upgraded to severity 'serious' by Clint Adams.

Thanks.

>> Can you make your post a bit less brief? Where does the
>> citation comes from?
>
> http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags

BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the "preferred language"  
of the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel  
settings every time is a bit... weird.

HS



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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Paul Wise via nm
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Hendrik Sattler
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the "preferred language" of the
> browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time
> is a bit... weird.

That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set
incorrectly in the first place? Unfortunately respecting the
Accept-Language HTTP header is less and less common for web
applications these days, mapping IP addresses to languages through
GeoIP is more common and extremely annoying.

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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Hendrik Sattler-3
In reply to this post by Hendrik Sattler-3
Zitat von Hendrik Sattler <[hidden email]>:
>> http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags
>
> BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the "preferred language" of
> the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings
> every time is a bit... weird.

Ups. Should have scrolled all the way down :-/

HS



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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Mike Hommey
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:55:09PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Hendrik Sattler
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the "preferred language" of the
> > browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time
> > is a bit... weird.
>
> That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set
> incorrectly in the first place? Unfortunately respecting the
> Accept-Language HTTP header is less and less common for web
> applications these days, mapping IP addresses to languages through
> GeoIP is more common and extremely annoying.

There is one annoying misfeature of content negotiation, though. If you
follow one of the language links at the bottom of the, say, english page, and
then follow a link within the translated page, you are back to english.

Mike


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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Hendrik Sattler-3
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm
Zitat von Paul Wise <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Hendrik Sattler
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the "preferred language" of the
>> browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time
>> is a bit... weird.
>
> That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set
> incorrectly in the first place? Unfortunately respecting the
> Accept-Language HTTP header is less and less common for web
> applications these days, mapping IP addresses to languages through
> GeoIP is more common and extremely annoying.

Actually, it is (set to German). However, I do not always want to see  
a translated page. Nothing that any solution can get right (as for a  
computer, the choice is rather random), be it content negotiation or  
geoip.
Already found it anyway :)

HS



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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Marc Haber-3
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:55:09 +0800, Paul Wise <[hidden email]> wrote:
>That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set
>incorrectly in the first place?

Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are.
Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German
language support.

Greetings
Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a
Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English
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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Paul Wise via nm
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are.
> Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German
> language support.

All of Debian or just the website?

> Greetings
> Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a
> Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English

Sounds like Debian has QA issues wrt the website translations. I
assume that you reported that to the German website l10n folks,
debian-i18n and debian-www?

--
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pabs

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German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)

Marc Haber-3
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0800, Paul Wise <[hidden email]> wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are.
>> Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German
>> language support.
>
>All of Debian or just the website?

Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English
to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators
have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English,
leading to barbarities like "SMTP-Sendezentrale" or
"Sicherheitsgutachten". Debian's German translations feel to me (a
native speaker of German) as babelfished from English.

I used to take a look at Debian's translations of my own package's
Debconf templates, but nowadays I just treat them as just another
language that I don't speak. This approach saves me a lot of grief.

>> Greetings
>> Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a
>> Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English
>
>Sounds like Debian has QA issues wrt the website translations. I
>assume that you reported that to the German website l10n folks,
>debian-i18n and debian-www?

They are resistant to advice and think their way is the correct way.
They work with a word list, so it must be correct.

Greetings
Marc
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Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | http://www.zugschlus.de/
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Re: German Debian

Vincent Danjean-3
On 24/03/2010 14:38, Marc Haber wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0800, Paul Wise <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are.
>>> Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German
>>> language support.
>>
>> All of Debian or just the website?
>
> Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English
> to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators
> have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English,

  I already read translation in French (my native langage) of Debian
Weekly News (a long time ago...) that I did not understand. I had to
read the English text to understand the French one...
  But I'm not sure it was wrong. The fact is that, due to my work and
hobbies, I know very well the English vocabulary. So French words for
lots of computer concepts sound strange to me. However, it is possible
that, for a user that does not know English, the translation is a good
thing. I really do not know what is the best[1].

  Regards,
    Vincent

[1] when *I* read a text, I know that I prefer the full English text.

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Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)

Hendrik Sattler-3
In reply to this post by Marc Haber-3
Zitat von Marc Haber <[hidden email]>:

> On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0800, Paul Wise <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are.
>>> Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German
>>> language support.
>>
>> All of Debian or just the website?
>
> Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English
> to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators
> have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English,
> leading to barbarities like "SMTP-Sendezentrale" or
> "Sicherheitsgutachten". Debian's German translations feel to me (a
> native speaker of German) as babelfished from English.
>
> I used to take a look at Debian's translations of my own package's
> Debconf templates, but nowadays I just treat them as just another
> language that I don't speak. This approach saves me a lot of grief.
>
>>> Greetings
>>> Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a
>>> Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English
>>
>> Sounds like Debian has QA issues wrt the website translations. I
>> assume that you reported that to the German website l10n folks,
>> debian-i18n and debian-www?
>
> They are resistant to advice and think their way is the correct way.
> They work with a word list, so it must be correct.

Directly from www.debian.org (english, then German, then translated back):
"it comes with over 25000 packages, precompiled software bundled up in  
a nice format for easy installation on your machine."
-> "Es enthält mehr als 25000 Softwarepakete, vorkompilierte Software  
in einfach zu installierenden Paketen."
-> "It contains more than 25000 software packages, precompiled  
software in easily installable packages."

 From a good translation, I'd expect that the reverse is the original  
text in some form. Additionally, the translations often sound too  
formal to a native speaker:
"Debian ist ein freies Betriebssystem (OS) für Ihren Rechner."
Although "Ihren" is the formal translation of "your" (which has a  
formal and a non-formal translation in German), capitalizing that word  
is very formal (e.g. used in directly addressed letters). To avoid  
that, it is way more common to not address the reader directly. That  
may be totally different in english.

Sometimes, they don't translate some words, e.g. in "Das neueste  
stabile Release von Debian ist 5.0." with a different wording under  
the link in the same paragraph (Release -> Veröffentlichung).

And that wasn't even the half of the front page!

I usually don't care enough (nobody can translate stuff in a way that  
all agree). The reason for asking for the language of the web page was  
my preference to stay with a language: a reference to an english page  
on an english mailing list.

HS



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Re: German Debian

Julien BLACHE
In reply to this post by Marc Haber-3
Marc Haber <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

> Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English
> to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators
> have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English,
> leading to barbarities like "SMTP-Sendezentrale" or
> "Sicherheitsgutachten". Debian's German translations feel to me (a
> native speaker of German) as babelfished from English.

The same goes for the french translations :( They're absolutely not
helping newbies and people who know better just revert to english - IME.

> I used to take a look at Debian's translations of my own package's
> Debconf templates, but nowadays I just treat them as just another
> language that I don't speak. This approach saves me a lot of grief.

<AOL />

JB.

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Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)

Thomas Weber-8
In reply to this post by Hendrik Sattler-3
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 04:38:49PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote:

> Zitat von Marc Haber <[hidden email]>:
>
> Directly from www.debian.org (english, then German, then translated back):
> "it comes with over 25000 packages, precompiled software bundled up in a
> nice format for easy installation on your machine."
> -> "Es enthält mehr als 25000 Softwarepakete, vorkompilierte Software in
> einfach zu installierenden Paketen."
> -> "It contains more than 25000 software packages, precompiled software
> in easily installable packages."
>
> From a good translation, I'd expect that the reverse is the original  
> text in some form.

That is an unfounded expectation. It's a well known effect that
translations tend to be more explicit than the original text.  
See
        http://www.linguateca.pt/documentos/Frankenberg-Garcia2004.doc
for an analysis (especially table 6).

> Additionally, the translations often sound too formal to a native
> speaker:
> "Debian ist ein freies Betriebssystem (OS) für Ihren Rechner."
> Although "Ihren" is the formal translation of "your" (which has a formal
> and a non-formal translation in German), capitalizing that word is very
> formal (e.g. used in directly addressed letters). To avoid that, it is
> way more common to not address the reader directly.

$ lynx --dump  http://www.duden.de/firmenloesungen/index.php?nid=15 | grep Ihren

For non-german readers: the 'Duden' is usually considered to be *the*
reference for spelling in Germany.

But ignoring that, how do you avoid addressing the reader when
translating the snippet "for your computer" and at the same time keep
your expectation above that the reverse translation should come really
close to the original text?
If you don't address the reader in the translation, there's no way to
get the 'addressing' back in the reverse translation, is there?

And these are exactly the kind of problems translators have.

        Thomas


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Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)

Hendrik Sattler-3
Am Mittwoch 24 März 2010 19:58:41 schrieb Thomas Weber:

> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 04:38:49PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote:
> > Zitat von Marc Haber <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > Directly from www.debian.org (english, then German, then translated
> > back): "it comes with over 25000 packages, precompiled software bundled
> > up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine."
> > -> "Es enthält mehr als 25000 Softwarepakete, vorkompilierte Software in
> > einfach zu installierenden Paketen."
> > -> "It contains more than 25000 software packages, precompiled software
> > in easily installable packages."
> >
> > From a good translation, I'd expect that the reverse is the original
> > text in some form.
>
> That is an unfounded expectation. It's a well known effect that
> translations tend to be more explicit than the original text.

_in_some_form_ -> roughly means the same
which is not the case here. The example above simply is not a good
translation.

Im selben Satz "Pakete" und "Software" zu wiederholen, klingt auch nicht
sonderlich gut.

> > Additionally, the translations often sound too formal to a native
> > speaker:
> > "Debian ist ein freies Betriebssystem (OS) für Ihren Rechner."
> > Although "Ihren" is the formal translation of "your" (which has a formal
> > and a non-formal translation in German), capitalizing that word is very
> > formal (e.g. used in directly addressed letters). To avoid that, it is
> > way more common to not address the reader directly.
>
> $ lynx --dump  http://www.duden.de/firmenloesungen/index.php?nid=15 | grep
>  Ihren

That page adresses companies in a formal matter. The debian front page doesn't
do that or not in any obvious way.

> For non-german readers: the 'Duden' is usually considered to be *the*
> reference for spelling in Germany.

A reference for spelling, not more.

> But ignoring that, how do you avoid addressing the reader when
> translating the snippet "for your computer" and at the same time keep
> your expectation above that the reverse translation should come really
> close to the original text?

I don't know the english translation for "klingt irgendwie steif".

> If you don't address the reader in the translation, there's no way to
> get the 'addressing' back in the reverse translation, is there?
>
> And these are exactly the kind of problems translators have.

I know those problems, although not for Debian.

HS


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Re: German Debian

Simon Paillard
In reply to this post by Vincent Danjean-3
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 04:00:51PM +0100, Vincent Danjean wrote:

> On 24/03/2010 14:38, Marc Haber wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0800, Paul Wise <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber wrote:
> >>> Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are.
> >>> Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German
> >>> language support.
> >>
> >> All of Debian or just the website?
> >
> > Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English
> > to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators
> > have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English,
>
>   I already read translation in French (my native langage) of Debian
> Weekly News (a long time ago...) that I did not understand. I had to
> read the English text to understand the French one...

I guess you know the existence of debian-l10n-french, whose address is
displayed at the bottom of each translated page, so that you can report
any issue like mistranslation, lack of clarity, or anything you think is
wrong ?

Same as software, translation might be broken. If the people that notice this
brokenness don't report it to anyone, it will be kept broken.

Thanks for your future reports :)

--
Simon Paillard


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Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal

Thomas Hochstein-4
In reply to this post by Marc Haber-3
Marc Haber schrieb:

> Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a
> Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English

Same here, yes.


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