Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Gerardo Ballabio-2
Sam, thank you very much for raising this issue and for recognizing
that there's more than one angle to it.

I tend to agree with Scott. It is well known, at least since George
Orwell wrote his books, that controlling how people speak means
controlling how they think. So I believe that this issue is very
important.

And indeed, in the last decades, redefining language has been a major
part of the political debate at large, with every group trying to
"hijack words for their own ends". For example, the pro- and
contra-abortion parties label themselves as "pro-choice" and
"pro-life" respectively, that is, they both try to frame the debate by
presenting themselves as "pushing for a good thing" while the other
party is pushing against. When you choose which language you use, you
effectively already take a side. And when you agree to use the other
party's language, you've already nearly lost the fight.

So this is also inevitably a political issue. It's not just about
"being polite" (or "welcoming" or "excellent" or whatever). I believe
that I absolutely have the right to "being impolite" if "being polite"
means that I must use a language that conveys a political position
that I oppose.

For example (forgive me if this might seem off-topic, but I think that
working out the details of an actual example is necessary to make my
point clear), I do not feel that I should acknowledge people's
requests to refer to them by their "preferred pronouns". That is
because I believe that people's sexual identities are determined by
objective facts, such as which chromosomes are there in their DNA, and
not by how they subjectively "perceive themselves". So when I refuse
to refer to a person with XY chromosomes as "she", or to abuse the
English language by calling an individual "they", in fact I am
defending my world view, and you must not deprive me of that right.
(May I remember that the incident that led to Norbert Preining's
temporary suspension from Debian started with him using "the wrong
pronoun" in a blog post!)

And while Debian isn't a government, neither it is an island somewhere
out of the "real world". So we can't pretend that we can leave that
out.

Gerardo

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Gerardo Ballabio-2
 Sorry, I just realized I sent this to the wrong list. It was for
-vote actually.

Gerardo


Il giorno gio 12 dic 2019 alle ore 11:22 Gerardo Ballabio
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>
> Sam, thank you very much for raising this issue and for recognizing
> that there's more than one angle to it.
>
> I tend to agree with Scott. It is well known, at least since George
> Orwell wrote his books, that controlling how people speak means
> controlling how they think. So I believe that this issue is very
> important.
>
> And indeed, in the last decades, redefining language has been a major
> part of the political debate at large, with every group trying to
> "hijack words for their own ends". For example, the pro- and
> contra-abortion parties label themselves as "pro-choice" and
> "pro-life" respectively, that is, they both try to frame the debate by
> presenting themselves as "pushing for a good thing" while the other
> party is pushing against. When you choose which language you use, you
> effectively already take a side. And when you agree to use the other
> party's language, you've already nearly lost the fight.
>
> So this is also inevitably a political issue. It's not just about
> "being polite" (or "welcoming" or "excellent" or whatever). I believe
> that I absolutely have the right to "being impolite" if "being polite"
> means that I must use a language that conveys a political position
> that I oppose.
>
> For example (forgive me if this might seem off-topic, but I think that
> working out the details of an actual example is necessary to make my
> point clear), I do not feel that I should acknowledge people's
> requests to refer to them by their "preferred pronouns". That is
> because I believe that people's sexual identities are determined by
> objective facts, such as which chromosomes are there in their DNA, and
> not by how they subjectively "perceive themselves". So when I refuse
> to refer to a person with XY chromosomes as "she", or to abuse the
> English language by calling an individual "they", in fact I am
> defending my world view, and you must not deprive me of that right.
> (May I remember that the incident that led to Norbert Preining's
> temporary suspension from Debian started with him using "the wrong
> pronoun" in a blog post!)
>
> And while Debian isn't a government, neither it is an island somewhere
> out of the "real world". So we can't pretend that we can leave that
> out.
>
> Gerardo

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Steve McIntyre
In reply to this post by Gerardo Ballabio-2
Sigh. Trying to stay out of this, but I can't *not* respond here.

On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 11:22:48AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

>
>For example (forgive me if this might seem off-topic, but I think that
>working out the details of an actual example is necessary to make my
>point clear), I do not feel that I should acknowledge people's
>requests to refer to them by their "preferred pronouns". That is
>because I believe that people's sexual identities are determined by
>objective facts, such as which chromosomes are there in their DNA, and
>not by how they subjectively "perceive themselves". So when I refuse
>to refer to a person with XY chromosomes as "she", or to abuse the
>English language by calling an individual "they", in fact I am
>defending my world view, and you must not deprive me of that right.

Why does your chosen "world view" need defending inside Debian? Why
does your opinion trump somebody else's sense of identity?

You have the right to *think* whatever you like, but we ask that you
respect other people when you're trying to work with them or engage in
conversation. Is that too hard?

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                [hidden email]
< liw> everything I know about UK hotels I learned from "Fawlty Towers"

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Matthew Garrett
In reply to this post by Gerardo Ballabio-2
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 11:22:48AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

> That is because I believe that people's sexual identities are
> determined by objective facts, such as which chromosomes are there in
> their DNA, and not by how they subjectively "perceive themselves".

To be clear, and speaking as someone with a PhD in genetics, while you
are certainly free to believe this (in just the same way you are free to
believe that vaccines cause autism or that the earth is flat), you're
wrong and it's reasonable for people to disregard your opinion on this
matter.

You shouldn't be deprived of the right to express your incorrect
opinion, but there's no reason anyone should be obliged to give you
space to do so - and there's no reason to prioritise your desire to
voice your incorrect opinion over a recognition that that opinion causes
harm to others.

--
Matthew Garrett | [hidden email]

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Adam D Barratt
In reply to this post by Gerardo Ballabio-2
On 2019-12-12 10:22, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> And indeed, in the last decades, redefining language has been a major
> part of the political debate at large, with every group trying to
> "hijack words for their own ends".
[...]
> So when I refuse ... to abuse the
> English language by calling an individual "they"

I don't have anything to add to Steve's response to the rest of your
mail, but if you insist on flogging this particular expired equine then
you should be aware that you're approximately six centuries too late to
stop the use of singular they being acceptable in English.

Regards,

Adam

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Sam Hartman-5
In reply to this post by Gerardo Ballabio-2
>>>>> "Gerardo" == Gerardo Ballabio <[hidden email]> writes:

Gerardo, somehow you've taken the discussion from terms used in Debian
elections to abortion politics and  use of people's preferred pronouns.

You could have found examples from within a Debian context.  They were
right there: diversity and its use in init systems.
You did not need to choose politically loaded examples for topics that
don't really belong on -project (and certainly not -vote).
But there's one aspect of this I need to explicitly respond to.
I understand and support Steve's anger at your message.
But to be crystal clear:
    >>
    >> For example (forgive me if this might seem off-topic, but I think
    >> that working out the details of an actual example is necessary to
    >> make my point clear), I do not feel that I should acknowledge
    >> people's requests to refer to them by their "preferred
    >> pronouns". That is because I believe that people's sexual
    >> identities are determined by objective facts, such as which
    >> chromosomes are there in their DNA, and not by how they
    >> subjectively "perceive themselves". So when I refuse to refer to
    >> a person with XY chromosomes as "she", or to abuse the English
    >> language by calling an individual "they", in fact I am defending
    >> my world view, and you must not deprive me of that right.

In adopting the Diversity Statement and the Code of Conduct we've
committed to welcoming people to the project regardless of how they
identify the project.  Welcoming people includes respecting their
preferred pronouns; people cannot be welcome if we are misgendering them
and causing them to feel alienated.
Striving to use the appropriate pronouns is a requisite for being
welcome in this community.
It's not always easy, and we all make mistakes.
But intentionally choosing not to use someone's preferred pronouns is
inconsistent with the respect demanded of the Code of Conduct.

Debating whether people get to have preferred pronouns or whether things
like singular they are appropriate in the English we use in Debian is
off-topic for Debian discussion fora.
To the extent that such debates were useful, we've already had them many
times.

Sam Hartman
Debian Project Leader

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Sam Hartman-3
>>>>> "Sam" == Sam Hartman <[hidden email]> writes:

    Sam> In adopting the Diversity Statement and the Code of Conduct
    Sam> we've committed to welcoming people to the project regardless
    Sam> of how they identify the project.

Sigh.
This should have been regardless of how they identify themselves.

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Gerardo Ballabio-2
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-5
(I see that because of my mistake, this thread continued on both
-project and -vote. If you think it's better to restrict it to either
list, please say so.)

Hello Sam and others,

I did not want to derail the discussion. As I wrote, I made those
examples because I believed that they would help making my point
understood. But I see that I obtained the opposite effect -- everybody
focused on the examples and nobody seems to have got what I was trying
to say. I am sorry for that.

But no, I don't think that it was inappropriate to choose examples
outside of Debian, because my point was exactly that this is an issue
not specific to Debian and heavily connected to politics, thus
politically loaded examples were right to the point. In fact, I
thought they were the best examples exactly for that reason (and also
because they are examples that everybody is familiar with).

Anyway, thank you for clarifying that using people's preferred
pronouns is a requisite for being welcome in Debian. As I read them,
neither the CoC nor the Diversity Statement are explicit on that.
Maybe it would be useful to make it explicit?

Gerardo



Il giorno gio 12 dic 2019 alle ore 13:47 Sam Hartman
<[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> >>>>> "Sam" == Sam Hartman <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>     Sam> In adopting the Diversity Statement and the Code of Conduct
>     Sam> we've committed to welcoming people to the project regardless
>     Sam> of how they identify the project.
>
> Sigh.
> This should have been regardless of how they identify themselves.

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Martina Ferrari
In reply to this post by Gerardo Ballabio-2
On 12/12/2019 07:22, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

> So this is also inevitably a political issue. It's not just about
> "being polite" (or "welcoming" or "excellent" or whatever). I believe
> that I absolutely have the right to "being impolite" if "being polite"
> means that I must use a language that conveys a political position
> that I oppose.

It is not about being polite, being an asshole to people is never a right.

> For example (forgive me if this might seem off-topic, but I think that
> working out the details of an actual example is necessary to make my
> point clear), I do not feel that I should acknowledge people's
> requests to refer to them by their "preferred pronouns". That is
> because I believe that people's sexual identities are determined by
> objective facts, such as which chromosomes are there in their DNA, and
> not by how they subjectively "perceive themselves".

Apart from being a ridiculously ignorant position, like anybody who
studied biology would tell you (Matthew already did), this is a good
example of not-polite-just-assholish discourse.

If I tell you that my pronouns are she/her, and that my name is Martina,
and you happen to insist on misgendering or deadnaming me, you would not
be defending an opinion, you would be acting like an asshole, and I
would be completely justified to tell you to fuck right off into the
sea, because you would be a ignorant bigoted jerk who enjoys making
people suffer so they can feel smug about their edginess.

>
 So when I refuse
> to refer to a person with XY chromosomes as "she", or to abuse the
> English language by calling an individual "they", in fact I am
> defending my world view, and you must not deprive me of that right.

If your worldview is based on denying people of their identity and their
humanity, your worldview needs to be crushed by any means necessary
before it commits genocide. Wars have been fought and international
tribunals set up to deal with people defending similar kinds of world views.

> Anyway, thank you for clarifying that using people's preferred
> pronouns is a requisite for being welcome in Debian. As I read them,
> neither the CoC nor the Diversity Statement are explicit on that.
> Maybe it would be useful to make it explicit?

I think we don't need to add bullet points to say don't be a transphobe,
like we don't need to say don't be a nazi.

--
Martina Ferrari (Tina)

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Joerg Jaspert
In reply to this post by Gerardo Ballabio-2
On 15614 March 1977, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

> Anyway, thank you for clarifying that using people's preferred
> pronouns is a requisite for being welcome in Debian. As I read them,
> neither the CoC nor the Diversity Statement are explicit on that.
> Maybe it would be useful to make it explicit?

They state that we welcome everyone, no matter how they identify. They
state that we are respectful. Anyone who is unable to transfer that to
"Use however they want to be called" sure should rethink their
involvement in Debian.

--
bye, Joerg

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Norbert Preining-5
In reply to this post by Martina Ferrari
Martina,

please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".
And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
Debian.

@listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
place in Debian, either.



Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert                               http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg

Geert Stappers
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 07:31:41AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Martina,
>
> please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
> some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
> Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".
> And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> Debian.

Norbert,

please reread the posting of Martina

 
> @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
> warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
> place in Debian, either.


Let go, let go



Groeten
Geert Stappers
--
Leven en laten leven

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg

Adam Borowski-3
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 12:00:11AM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 07:31:41AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > Martina,
> >
> > please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
> > some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
> > Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".
> > And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> > Debian.
>
> Norbert,
>
> please reread the posting of Martina

And... ?

I agree with Norbert, that post was beyond the pale.

> > @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
> > warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
> > place in Debian, either.
>
> Let go, let go

It's interesting how only one side is allowed to use hateful words.

I thus second Norbert's request.


Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ A MAP07 (Dead Simple) raspberry tincture recipe: 0.5l 95% alcohol,
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ 1kg raspberries, 0.4kg sugar; put into a big jar for 1 month.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Filter out and throw away the fruits (can dump them into a cake,
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ etc), let the drink age at least 3-6 months.

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Martina Ferrari
In reply to this post by Norbert Preining-5
I forgot to say this earlier, but thanks for reminding me: anybody who
wants to report me for CoC violations without me reading the complaint
can do it mailing the other CT members individually.

On 12/12/2019 19:31, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Martina,
>
> please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
> some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
> Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".

https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing

> And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> Debian.

It is a shame that Debian still has transphobes in its ranks, but here
we are..

> @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
> warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
> place in Debian, either.

I don't want to be in the same place as transphobes, that's for sure.

--
Martina Ferrari (Tina)

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Scott Kitterman-5


On December 13, 2019 4:43:32 AM UTC, Martina Ferrari <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I forgot to say this earlier, but thanks for reminding me: anybody who
>wants to report me for CoC violations without me reading the complaint
>can do it mailing the other CT members individually.
>
>On 12/12/2019 19:31, Norbert Preining wrote:
>> Martina,
>>
>> please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
>> some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
>> Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".
>
>https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing
>
>> And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
>> Debian.
>
>It is a shame that Debian still has transphobes in its ranks, but here
>we are..
>
>> @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should
>be
>> warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have
>no
>> place in Debian, either.
>
>I don't want to be in the same place as transphobes, that's for sure.

So you get a free pass?

Scott K

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Norbert Preining-5
In reply to this post by Martina Ferrari
Hi,

> https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/

Nice cartoon, but having emotions and blarping out insults is a
different thing.

> > And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> > Debian.
>
> It is a shame that Debian still has transphobes in its ranks, but here
> we are..

If this was directed at me, I request an apology. I was criticizing you
for your insulting language, and not for your gender.

> I don't want to be in the same place as transphobes, that's for sure.

You are free to leave.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert                               http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC, lglg

Geert Stappers
In reply to this post by Adam Borowski-3
On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 02:32:08AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 12:00:11AM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 07:31:41AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > > Martina,
> > >
> > > please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
> > > some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
> > > Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".
> > > And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> > > Debian.
> >
> > Norbert,
> >
> > please reread the posting of Martina
>
> And... ?
Example given the line
  It is not about being polite, being an asshole to people is never a right.



> I agree with Norbert, that post was beyond the pale.

I also agree with Norbert that word count "asshole" on Martina posting
indeed returns  3.  The posting "beyond the pale"?   NO


> > > @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
> > > warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
> > > place in Debian, either.
> >
> > Let go, let go
>
> It's interesting how only one side is allowed to use hateful words.
>
> I thus second Norbert's request.

Noticed, as "Acknowledge".

I solicit for the same warning or ban. Because three time asshole in a
posting. And for provoking "nazis" by using intoleral words.



Groeten
Geert Stappers
DD
--
Leven en laten leven

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Martina Ferrari
In reply to this post by Norbert Preining-5
On 13/12/2019 02:55, Norbert Preining wrote:

>> https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/
>
> Nice cartoon, but having emotions and blarping out insults is a
> different thing.

You are missing the point completely, like you did with my original email.

>> It is a shame that Debian still has transphobes in its ranks, but here
>> we are..
>
> If this was directed at me, I request an apology. I was criticizing you
> for your insulting language, and not for your gender.

Somebody who misgenders another person conciously is a transphobe.
Whether my phrase was directed at Gerardo only or also to you, you decide.

>> I don't want to be in the same place as transphobes, that's for sure.
>
> You are free to leave.
Good to know that you prefer to include bigots in Debian in exchange for
marginalised people, I am sure the other trans and nonbinary folk in
Debian must feel very welcome around you. At least you are being open
about it.

--
Martina Ferrari (Tina)

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Charles Plessy-12
Le Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 03:47:43AM -0300, Martina Ferrari a écrit :
>
> Whether my phrase was directed at Gerardo only or also to you, you decide.

Please do not write that, Martina.  You are undermining the very code of
conduct that you are striving to defend.

To all: how about a "maximum one mail a day" self-policy ?

Cheers,

--
Charles Plessy                              Akano, Uruma, Okinawa, Japan
Debian Med packaging team         http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tooting from work,           https://mastodon.technology/@charles_plessy
Tooting from home,                 https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy

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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
In reply to this post by Norbert Preining-5
On 2019/12/13 00:31, Norbert Preining wrote:
> please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with
> some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here.
> Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi".

Nothing about Martina's comments there were at all against the CoC, it's
completely factual that hate crimes are committed against trans people
on a scale that can be considered a form of genocide. I learned via
Rhonda's blog[1] last month that 331 trans people were murdered last
year. That's just crazy. I can't imagine what must go on in someone's
head that they hate someone so much about something that they have no
choice over that they want to kill them for it.

[1] https://rhonda.deb.at/blog/2019/11/20

I find your offense to the mere use of words of 'nazi' and 'genocide'
quite bizarre, there's nothing rude or even impolite to using these
words in normal conversation.

> And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and
> Debian.
>
> @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be
> warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no
> place in Debian, either.
 I found that you were much more solidly violating the CoC on this list,
On a recent mail you implied that if someone isn't happy with
transphobes on this list, then it is they who should be free to
leave[2]. That sets a grave tone and your recent messages to this list
exposes your position on these matters more than you probably realise.

[2]
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20191213055559.6424ws6c44q2luqp@...

-Jonathan

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc>
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

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