Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Steve McIntyre
Paul Wise wrote:
>There was the possibility of mentioning the poll in DPN, but it was
>noted that the deadline already passed. It was suggested that the
>poll was quite short. It was suggested a more widely advertised and
>longer running selectricity poll might have been a good idea. It was
>noted that the email poll was simply an internal decision making
>tool. Someone thought that it was kinda weird to have the poll only
>limited to this list.

Um, yes. For something that's going to be so visible to many users, a
wider-spread mention would be appreciated, and a poll running longer
than 48 hours at a weekend.

In terms of the artwork choice itself (SpaceFun), I've seen a lot of
comments along the lines of "looks like something even my kids would
reject for looking too childish". I wouldn't go quite that far myself,
but I can understand the sentiment. :-(

Please check again with a wider audience.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                [hidden email]
"I've only once written 'SQL is my bitch' in a comment. But that code
 is in use on a military site..." -- Simon Booth


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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Yves-Alexis Perez-2
On ven., 2010-11-12 at 10:37 +0000, Steve McIntyre wrote:

> Paul Wise wrote:
> >There was the possibility of mentioning the poll in DPN, but it was
> >noted that the deadline already passed. It was suggested that the
> >poll was quite short. It was suggested a more widely advertised and
> >longer running selectricity poll might have been a good idea. It was
> >noted that the email poll was simply an internal decision making
> >tool. Someone thought that it was kinda weird to have the poll only
> >limited to this list.
>
> Um, yes. For something that's going to be so visible to many users, a
> wider-spread mention would be appreciated, and a poll running longer
> than 48 hours at a weekend.
>
> In terms of the artwork choice itself (SpaceFun), I've seen a lot of
> comments along the lines of "looks like something even my kids would
> reject for looking too childish". I wouldn't go quite that far myself,
> but I can understand the sentiment. :-(
>
> Please check again with a wider audience.
Ok, that's my last mail on the subject, I'll try to explain it *again*,
one last time.

I really think things could have done better. I think things could have
done better since 3 releases, to be honest. Now nobody hide the fact
that Debian artwork work is done on debian-desktop list (since 3
releases at least). Everybody could have sent his opinion *before*.
We're running out of time since quite some time already, we need to get
this done *now*.

To all people criticizing the decision-making process, feel free to be
here on time for Wheezy, participate in theme making, discussion,
packaging, whatever, I really think we need sensible input on this.

But, once again, I don't think “a wider audience” is needed. In my
opinion, interested people *need* to take part in the work, give some
time, give some interest in the long run and not just in the final word
(a bit like everything else in Debian). And (again) those people are
really welcome on -desktop list and packaging team.

About Squeeze, I *will* upload desktop-base with Spacefun theme, when
ready. This was the decision made by the -desktop list, we knew
everybody couldn't agree on this (some people did vote for other themes
like SpaceFun, for example), but there was 4 themes, there had to be
people disappointed. But again, this was the decision and I can't really
deny it. And we're running out of time and really need to push this into
Squeeze fast.

Now, maybe the release team won't allow a freeze exception, maybe
someone will make an NMU or ask the TC to override this. Fine, do it, I
don't care, I have some (utterly cute) other things to take care of. But
if you do it, please really take care of the next artwork context, take
care of the people you're denying the decision.

Regards,
--
Yves-Alexis

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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Sam Hartman-5
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26:01PM +0100, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> Ok, that's my last mail on the subject, I'll try to explain it *again*,
> one last time.
>
> I really think things could have done better. I think things could have
> done better since 3 releases, to be honest. Now nobody hide the fact
> that Debian artwork work is done on debian-desktop list (since 3
> releases at least). Everybody could have sent his opinion *before*.
> We're running out of time since quite some time already, we need to get
> this done *now*.

I've been following the discussion on -desktop and, FWIW, I thank you
for having established a decision process. More generally, I thank the
-desktop team for having worked on the topic, a topic to which nobody
was paying attention to even if it was self-evident that time was
ticking out.

Let's not forget that do-ocracy is the default decision making device in
Debian: who does the work, gets to decide. A nice feature of do-ocracy
is that it is very easy to get an opportunity to decide: just do the
work :-)

So please, go ahead in implementing your decision, and thanks for that.

> To all people criticizing the decision-making process, feel free to be
> here on time for Wheezy, participate in theme making, discussion,
> packaging, whatever, I really think we need sensible input on this.

I'm confident that everybody which is now unhappy on how the decision
has been made will be there for Wheezy, helping out -desktop starting
from day 1 of the development cycle.  Of course input from everyone is
welcome also on how similar matters should be decided *in the future*,
but I believe comments should be better postponed past Squeeze release,
when we will all be way more relaxed and in planning mode.

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, |  .  |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams

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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Mark brown-22
In reply to this post by Yves-Alexis Perez-2
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26:01PM +0100, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> On ven., 2010-11-12 at 10:37 +0000, Steve McIntyre wrote:

> > In terms of the artwork choice itself (SpaceFun), I've seen a lot of
> > comments along the lines of "looks like something even my kids would
> > reject for looking too childish". I wouldn't go quite that far myself,
> > but I can understand the sentiment. :-(

> > Please check again with a wider audience.

> I really think things could have done better. I think things could have
> done better since 3 releases, to be honest. Now nobody hide the fact
> that Debian artwork work is done on debian-desktop list (since 3
> releases at least). Everybody could have sent his opinion *before*.

This is the first time I've heard of the -desktop list.

> We're running out of time since quite some time already, we need to get
> this done *now*.

This is the first time I became aware that there was a need for a new
theme; I've never personally had much problem with our current theme (I
use it unmodified on most systems, or sometimes change the background)
or heard any grumbling about it.

> But, once again, I don't think ???a wider audience??? is needed. In my
> opinion, interested people *need* to take part in the work, give some
> time, give some interest in the long run and not just in the final word
> (a bit like everything else in Debian). And (again) those people are
> really welcome on -desktop list and packaging team.

Honestly I'd have expected something like this to show up on -devel, or
at least -devel-announce, at some point.


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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Colin Tuckley-2
Quoting Mark Brown <[hidden email]>:

> Honestly I'd have expected something like this to show up on -devel, or
> at least -devel-announce, at some point.

+1

We can't comment if we don't see it and only allowing 48 hours for  
comments is not long enough (7 days would me the minimum imo).

Colin


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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Petter Reinholdtsen
In reply to this post by Mark brown-22

[Mark Brown]
> This is the first time I've heard of the -desktop list.

Great to hear that you now know about the location of artwork
discussions, given that you imply by posting here that you are
interested in such work.

> Honestly I'd have expected something like this to show up on -devel,
> or at least -devel-announce, at some point.

And I do not expect it, I must admit.  Everyone do not get a say on
most decisions made in Debian, and this is a good thing to speed up
development and keep the overhead of decisions low.  This time you
(and I) did not get to provide input on the visual profile for
Squeeze, but a lot of people were involved in the process and I trust
them to do good work.  I see no need for a rematch, nor any need to
try to overrule those doing this work.  I believe it is well within
the scope and authority of the desktop group to make such decision,
and am happy there are people working on the visual profile in Debian.

Happy hacking,
--
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Re: Squeeze Artwork: selection of default theme

Mark brown-22
On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 11:22:51AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Mark Brown]

> > Honestly I'd have expected something like this to show up on -devel,
> > or at least -devel-announce, at some point.

> And I do not expect it, I must admit.  Everyone do not get a say on
> most decisions made in Debian, and this is a good thing to speed up
> development and keep the overhead of decisions low.  This time you
> (and I) did not get to provide input on the visual profile for
> Squeeze, but a lot of people were involved in the process and I trust
> them to do good work.  I see no need for a rematch, nor any need to
> try to overrule those doing this work.  I believe it is well within
> the scope and authority of the desktop group to make such decision,
> and am happy there are people working on the visual profile in Debian.

It's something that's apparently controversial within the team working
on it, has a rather noticable impact on the distribution and is getting
changed when we're considerably into the freeze.  All of these things
point to being cautious about changes and consulting widely, especially
the late in the freeze bit - this is going to make it extremely difficult
to deal with any issues that might be noticed.


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