Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Holger Levsen-2
On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 09:19:03AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Handling reimbursements for BSPs has significantly crossed my threshhold
> for not being fun with our current procedures.  We absolutely should
> reimburse developers attending BSPs

yes! why don't you just say 'yes' to all requests written with somewhat
proper grammar^w^w^w^wfrom people with a bit of searchable debian
activity?! that would cost, what 10k a year, and would just be yay.

i'd be very surprised if it would raise to more than 20k even if we
announced this *everywhere allthetime*. and if/when that happens, more
yay, we increased contributors and contributions!

i'd be in favor. go BSPs!


--
tschau,
        Holger

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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Holger Levsen-2
btw,

i'd also be in favor of raising this to 100 Euro or British Pounds or
Swiss Francs, or whatever the currency is, where 90-110 $something has
the most value.

contributions are our highest value.


--
tschau,
        Holger

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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Tobias Frost-3
In reply to this post by Holger Levsen-2
On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 11:10:12PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 09:19:03AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > Handling reimbursements for BSPs has significantly crossed my threshhold
> > for not being fun with our current procedures.  We absolutely should
> > reimburse developers attending BSPs
>
> yes! why don't you just say 'yes' to all requests written with somewhat
> proper grammar^w^w^w^wfrom people with a bit of searchable debian
> activity?! that would cost, what 10k a year, and would just be yay.
>
> i'd be very surprised if it would raise to more than 20k even if we
> announced this *everywhere allthetime*. and if/when that happens, more
> yay, we increased contributors and contributions!
>
> i'd be in favor. go BSPs!
+1

I think also that BSPs are good to "aquire" new contributors or get them
wetted enough to get even more involved into Debian.

(I think that is also something we need to take care off, I have the
impression that Debian is shrinking in people, not growing -- disclaimer that
could be also a MIA-team-member-view, offseted by an subjective
impression you get when you do MIA.)

--
tobi


>
> --
> tschau,
> Holger
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
>        PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C



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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Sam Hartman-3
>>>>> "Tobias" == Tobias Frost <[hidden email]> writes:

    Tobias> On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 11:10:12PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
    >> On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 09:19:03AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
    >> > Handling reimbursements for BSPs has significantly crossed my
    >> threshhold > for not being fun with our current procedures.  We
    >> absolutely should > reimburse developers attending BSPs
    >>
    >> yes! why don't you just say 'yes' to all requests written with
    >> somewhat proper grammar^w^w^w^wfrom people with a bit of
    >> searchable debian activity?! that would cost, what 10k a year,
    >> and would just be yay.
    >>
    >> i'd be very surprised if it would raise to more than 20k even if
    >> we announced this *everywhere allthetime*. and if/when that
    >> happens, more yay, we increased contributors and contributions!
    >>
    >> i'd be in favor. go BSPs!

    Tobias> +1

I'm hurt reading your message and Holger's.
I wrote to the project saying that the current situation sucked for me.
I got some great offers of help and I think this issue will be easy to
resolve.

But then I got a message from holger and agreement from you that
basically said "if you did things this way it wouldn't suck."  Neither
of you took the time to understand what my concerns are.
You just assumed you knew what my frustration was without asking and
jumped to a solution without actually considering the things that are
important to me.

I do not feel valued in this interaction.
When I bring up an issue i'd hope that people working on trying to solve
that issue would take the time to understand what my concern is.
I hope we'd offer that to everyone in our community.

--Sam

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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Dominik George-7
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

> I'm hurt reading your message and Holger's.
> I wrote to the project saying that the current situation sucked for me.
> I got some great offers of help and I think this issue will be easy to
> resolve.
>
> But then I got a message from holger and agreement from you that
> basically said "if you did things this way it wouldn't suck."  Neither
> of you took the time to understand what my concerns are.
> You just assumed you knew what my frustration was without asking and
> jumped to a solution without actually considering the things that are
> important to me.

I do not think that this was the intention, at least not as I read it.

While the way it was written sure can be interpreted that way, I
somehow can see indications that the tone was i nno way related to the
topic. Maybe to the bar in the MiniDebConf basement; at least right
before I read that mail I saw a very tired Holger stumble by ;).

In any case, I think the point here should be - and this, I support
very much - is that we should make the process more open for non-DDs,
that is, contributors new to Debian (but of course that can be somehow
verified as having the true intention to contribute something, and in
a way that, for starters, "getting to know some othe rcontributors"
can be valued as a contribution in itself, to grow and strengthen the
community).

tl;dr: let's take the chance to make the community as open as possible
(ideally, providing good mentoring at the same time).

That, of course, does not rule out any other ideas and concerns on top
of that.

Cheers,
Nik
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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
On Sat, Jun 08, 2019 at 12:42:18PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> I got some great offers of help and I think this issue will be easy to
> resolve.

my mail was intended this way as well. I made a simple suggestion how to
handle things better in future.

> I do not feel valued in this interaction.

same here.


--
tschau,
        Holger, quite demotivated by such a reaction and the one you
                sent me in private

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Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Sam Hartman-3
hi,

maybe I should be a bit more verbose now.

On Sat, Jun 08, 2019 at 12:42:18PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> [...] Neither
> of you took the time to understand what my concerns are.

I'm insulted by you thinking this about me. I might have failed to
understand you, but you telling me I didnt try...

> You just assumed you knew what my frustration was without asking and
> jumped to a solution without actually considering the things that are
> important to me.

Wrong. Indeed I understood from your mail to d-d-a that the setup is too
complicated for you to handle well. So I made a simple suggestion how to
simplify it.

also, I had to work with the infos I had, those you gave in that d-d-a post,
which were not many. Blaming me for not correctly understanding you based
on those bits feels strange at least.

> I do not feel valued in this interaction.
 
as said, me really neither. I try to help and get yelled at.

and then there are the are those contributors which right now are also
less valued then before, because the programm is suspended. 100 USD
might not be much for you and me, but for some 100 USD make a great
difference.


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Improving Reimburse workflow? (Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties)

Carsten Schoenert
Hello Holger, hello Sam,

Am 12.06.19 um 17:15 schrieb Holger Levsen:
...
>> I do not feel valued in this interaction.
>  
> as said, me really neither. I try to help and get yelled at.
>
> and then there are the are those contributors which right now are also
> less valued then before, because the programm is suspended. 100 USD
> might not be much for you and me, but for some 100 USD make a great
> difference.

I'm not that long in Debian than you both, but on some corners within
the Debian universe I felt sometimes the processes are really old
fashioned and some kind of ... nighties style.

And I also fear we will find some more procedures that will not work
well for the current DPL simply because Sam is a blind person and the
workflows are really not made for such kind of disabled persons. So it's
obvious to me that we will need to rethink some workflows so things like
reimbursement will not be horrible thing to work on for both
participating parties.

As long I'm able to traveling within Germany or Europe and the travel
costs aren't that much I have avoided to ask for an reimbursement simply
because I found the process to complicated for me. A lot of email
traffic is needed and because of this a lot of time I'd need to invest.
But I know there is also the 'other' side that have to prove my request.

So a wild guess, why isn't it possible to create a webui which is
guiding me through a reimbursement request and also make it possible to
collect all the requests to the persons which have to agree or disagree
on the calls?
And even a more wild guess, isn't creating such an UI or system
something Debian can order somewhere if no person will jump into such an
work? We have a lot of Devs which working in companies who are earning
money by build any kind of WebUI for customers, or maybe we need to look
for some synergy effects by combines things, I mean the SPI is also
handling reimbursements.

--
Regards
Carsten Schoenert

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Re: Improving Reimburse workflow? (Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties)

Sam Hartman-3
>>>>> "Carsten" == Carsten Schoenert <[hidden email]> writes:


This thread is off-topic for the debian-devel list and better belongs on
debian-project.

Many things could be improved about our work flow on the financial side.
That's unlikely to be my focus during my term as DPL.  Right now I don't
even have time to participate in the discussion.
I hope to have some cycles to think about the treasurer stuff in the
August/September time frame.

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Re: Improving Reimburse workflow? (Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties)

Chris Lamb -2
In reply to this post by Carsten Schoenert
Carsten Schoenert wrote:

> So a wild guess, why isn't it possible to create a webui which is
> guiding me through a reimbursement request and also make it possible to
> collect all the requests to the persons which have to agree or disagree
> on the calls?

I acknowledge that Sam has requested this topic moves to -project and
would agree with that assessment.

However, if this thread is actually restarted there I would ask that
any discussion attempts to first identify and actually confirm
problems with the current systems from the stakeholders involved,
rather than jumping to conclusions or implementation concerns.

Post-mortems of failed engineering projects are replete with examples
of planning, designing and even coding pushing ahead without listening
to and ultimately empathising with the people who will actually be
using the software. I am sure many readers of this list will painfully
familiar with this phenomenon.

Indeed, making "wild guesses" about their concerns can easily come
across as presumptious or even condescending; when one casually
assumes the users' concerns, it tends to trivialise and minimise their
real-life experiences and opinions.


Regards,

--
      ,''`.
     : :'  :     Chris Lamb
     `. `'`      [hidden email] 🍥 chris-lamb.co.uk
       `-

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Re: Improving Reimburse workflow? (Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties)

Andreas Tille-5
In reply to this post by Carsten Schoenert
On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 05:38:51PM +0200, Carsten Schoenert wrote:

> Hello Holger, hello Sam,
>
> Am 12.06.19 um 17:15 schrieb Holger Levsen:
> ...
> >> I do not feel valued in this interaction.
> >  
> > as said, me really neither. I try to help and get yelled at.
> >
> > and then there are the are those contributors which right now are also
> > less valued then before, because the programm is suspended. 100 USD
> > might not be much for you and me, but for some 100 USD make a great
> > difference.
>
> I'm not that long in Debian than you both, but on some corners within
> the Debian universe I felt sometimes the processes are really old
> fashioned and some kind of ... nighties style.

Hmmmm, what about switching back to eighties style and sit together over
a beer.  Holger and Sam are kindly invited to some beer by me at
DebConf.  (Please be so kind to remind me about this in case I might
forget.)

Kind regards

        Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de

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Re: Improving Reimburse workflow? (Re: Suspending Offer to Reimburse Expenses for Attending Future Bug Squashing Parties)

Sam Hartman-3
>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Tille <[hidden email]> writes:


    Andreas> Hmmmm, what about switching back to eighties style and sit
    Andreas> together over a beer.  Holger and Sam are kindly invited to
    Andreas> some beer by me at DebConf.  (Please be so kind to remind
    Andreas> me about this in case I might forget.)

I'm laughing so hard.  I absolutely am happy to sit down with Holger; I
really enjoy hanging out with him.  And I'd be delighted to hang out
with you as well!

But as it happens, I don't prefer the taste of beer or vodka although
almost all other alcohols work well.

But I'm laughing because in this instance it's easy for me to see that
you're offering help in a way that I was not able to hear in Holger's
first message.  But there's not really any difference except in me and
my state.  Seeing the juxtaposition kind of deflates a lot of my
frustration.  I really do prefer to be approached with questions rather
than assumptions, and yet there are and always will be assumptions
somewhere.

--Sam