Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

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Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

Dmitry Bogatov-3

[ I know, it month and half late ]
[ I did my best to recover thread. Sorry, If I failed. ]

[ Please, CC me if you want me to reply. I'm not subscribed to debian-devel@ ]

[ Alexander Wirt ]
> Thats where you come in, please tell me how tools like salsa, alioth,
> git, tracker and so on changed to way you work. I want to know
> everything, the good, the bad and so on.

Glad you asked. So I have excuse for stating my opinion, which is quite
unpopular.

Summary: Introduction of salsa is nothing short of disaster.

I started working with Debian in mid-2014, when all code lived on
alioth. The best thing about alioth is that I did not interact with it.

Alioth did not get in my way. I had ssh access to alioth.debian.org, all
operations was simple and intuitive. I had choice of VCS to use, git
hooks were easy to setup, every chore was easy to script. I participated
in two teams -- Haskell and Emacs. Everything was smooth, it is just
matter of file permissions.

Maybe developers, who granted me access to teams, had to deal with
something more terrible I can imagine. Maybe administering Alioth for
DSA team was nightmare. No idea, I am telling about my experience.

And then came yet another tragic day for Debian, and Gitlab replaced
alioth.debian.org. It brought pain, inconvenience and friction.

  Performing basic operations with repository now either impossible
  (salsa forces foo/bar naming, instead of flexibility of proper
  filesystem on Alioth), or requires learning new useless stuff.

  There is no longer proper git hooks.

  Other version control systems are gone.

In an instant, I became second-class citizen, now everything --
documentation, processes, defaults -- everything is optimized for
running "modern" browser and pushing buttons. Scriptability is pain.

That is not all, folks. Salsa brought own issue tracker and concept of
pull-request. So now I can't just mail a patch with reportbug(1) --
there are chances, that maintainer will either ignore it, because he
only follows salsa issue tracker, or that he will ask you to make a
pull-request on salsa.

git was step forward from svn/cvs -- now we can work on our version
control system offline. Salsa issue tracker is a same step backward from
debbugs -- it disables offline working with bugs.

To be fair, there is very minor positive thing in salsa -- Gitlab CI.
Its usefulness is limited, since there is no API to capture output in
real time, so I still have to use sbuild on my local machine, but
ability to rebuild package once in a week and get email on failure is
good thing to prevent package rot.

I know, Alioth was unmaintained, but just having box with sudo rules
about adduser/usermod and Apache, running cgit would be much better
replacement. Well, this ship sailed; I have been writing scripts to deal
with madness around for a while, and it seems I will have to continue to
do so.
--
        Note, that I send and fetch email in batch, once every 24 hours.
                 If matter is urgent, try https://t.me/kaction
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Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

Martin-36
On 2019-04-22 09:55, Dmitry Bogatov wrote:
> Alioth did not get in my way.

Salsa does not get into my way neither. I barely use the web
frontend, I do not use the issue tracker at all, nor merge
requests. Works fine for me!

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Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
On 2019/04/22 14:36, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> On 2019-04-22 09:55, Dmitry Bogatov wrote:
>> Alioth did not get in my way.
>
> Salsa does not get into my way neither. I barely use the web
> frontend, I do not use the issue tracker at all, nor merge
> requests. Works fine for me!

Same here, with Alioth, I often didn't figure out what I needed to do. I
spent large amount of time trying to do something before I just ended up
giving up. In GitLab, even when I'm not sure where a setting or button
is it at least doesn't take long to figure out where to do it. I think
Salsa is the single best thing to have happened in Debian in recent
years. It's definitely something that reduces the barrier of entry to
the Debian project, and I agree with recent sentiments expressed on the
debian-vote list that we should standardise on salsa completely. That
will pave the way for more ambitious ideas that are worth while like
standardising on a git-based source package, which right now seems like
a bit much to chew off in one go.

-Jonathan

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc>
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

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Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

Scott Kitterman-5
On Monday, April 22, 2019 09:35:20 PM Jonathan Carter wrote:

> On 2019/04/22 14:36, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > On 2019-04-22 09:55, Dmitry Bogatov wrote:
> >> Alioth did not get in my way.
> >
> > Salsa does not get into my way neither. I barely use the web
> > frontend, I do not use the issue tracker at all, nor merge
> > requests. Works fine for me!
>
> Same here, with Alioth, I often didn't figure out what I needed to do. I
> spent large amount of time trying to do something before I just ended up
> giving up. In GitLab, even when I'm not sure where a setting or button
> is it at least doesn't take long to figure out where to do it. I think
> Salsa is the single best thing to have happened in Debian in recent
> years. It's definitely something that reduces the barrier of entry to
> the Debian project, and I agree with recent sentiments expressed on the
> debian-vote list that we should standardise on salsa completely. That
> will pave the way for more ambitious ideas that are worth while like
> standardising on a git-based source package, which right now seems like
> a bit much to chew off in one go.

Even assuming it's a good idea at all, which I don't think one should assume.

Scott K

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Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
On 2019/04/22 22:04, Scott Kitterman wrote:

>> Same here, with Alioth, I often didn't figure out what I needed to do. I
>> spent large amount of time trying to do something before I just ended up
>> giving up. In GitLab, even when I'm not sure where a setting or button
>> is it at least doesn't take long to figure out where to do it. I think
>> Salsa is the single best thing to have happened in Debian in recent
>> years. It's definitely something that reduces the barrier of entry to
>> the Debian project, and I agree with recent sentiments expressed on the
>> debian-vote list that we should standardise on salsa completely. That
>> will pave the way for more ambitious ideas that are worth while like
>> standardising on a git-based source package, which right now seems like
>> a bit much to chew off in one go.
>
> Even assuming it's a good idea at all, which I don't think one should assume.

Sure, the jury's still out on that one :)

-Jonathan

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc>
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

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Re: Tell me about your salsa experience

YunQiang Su
In reply to this post by Dmitry Bogatov-3
Dmitry Bogatov <[hidden email]> 于2019年4月22日周一 下午5:56写道:

>
>
> [ I know, it month and half late ]
> [ I did my best to recover thread. Sorry, If I failed. ]
>
> [ Please, CC me if you want me to reply. I'm not subscribed to debian-devel@ ]
>
> [ Alexander Wirt ]
> > Thats where you come in, please tell me how tools like salsa, alioth,
> > git, tracker and so on changed to way you work. I want to know
> > everything, the good, the bad and so on.
>
> Glad you asked. So I have excuse for stating my opinion, which is quite
> unpopular.
>
> Summary: Introduction of salsa is nothing short of disaster.
>

One problem of salsa is that the speed of fork is quite slow.
I guess we need something like CoW.

> I started working with Debian in mid-2014, when all code lived on
> alioth. The best thing about alioth is that I did not interact with it.
>
> Alioth did not get in my way. I had ssh access to alioth.debian.org, all
> operations was simple and intuitive. I had choice of VCS to use, git
> hooks were easy to setup, every chore was easy to script. I participated
> in two teams -- Haskell and Emacs. Everything was smooth, it is just
> matter of file permissions.
>
> Maybe developers, who granted me access to teams, had to deal with
> something more terrible I can imagine. Maybe administering Alioth for
> DSA team was nightmare. No idea, I am telling about my experience.
>
> And then came yet another tragic day for Debian, and Gitlab replaced
> alioth.debian.org. It brought pain, inconvenience and friction.
>
>   Performing basic operations with repository now either impossible
>   (salsa forces foo/bar naming, instead of flexibility of proper
>   filesystem on Alioth), or requires learning new useless stuff.
>
>   There is no longer proper git hooks.
>
>   Other version control systems are gone.
>
> In an instant, I became second-class citizen, now everything --
> documentation, processes, defaults -- everything is optimized for
> running "modern" browser and pushing buttons. Scriptability is pain.
>
> That is not all, folks. Salsa brought own issue tracker and concept of
> pull-request. So now I can't just mail a patch with reportbug(1) --
> there are chances, that maintainer will either ignore it, because he
> only follows salsa issue tracker, or that he will ask you to make a
> pull-request on salsa.
>
> git was step forward from svn/cvs -- now we can work on our version
> control system offline. Salsa issue tracker is a same step backward from
> debbugs -- it disables offline working with bugs.
>
> To be fair, there is very minor positive thing in salsa -- Gitlab CI.
> Its usefulness is limited, since there is no API to capture output in
> real time, so I still have to use sbuild on my local machine, but
> ability to rebuild package once in a week and get email on failure is
> good thing to prevent package rot.
>
> I know, Alioth was unmaintained, but just having box with sudo rules
> about adduser/usermod and Apache, running cgit would be much better
> replacement. Well, this ship sailed; I have been writing scripts to deal
> with madness around for a while, and it seems I will have to continue to
> do so.
> --
>         Note, that I send and fetch email in batch, once every 24 hours.
>                  If matter is urgent, try https://t.me/kaction
>                                                                              --



--
YunQiang Su