Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Sam Hartman-5
On Fri, Sep 02, 2005 at 12:39:16AM -0500, kristian david wrote:

> Hi =o)
>
> I'm administratively a "NONAME" guy (homeless because of a
> "Microcephaleous Gates" that is a kind of New-Digital-Nazi of the
> world... with his friend Ballmy-the-monkey-dancer), and I love realy this
> new "Sarge" release of your Debian, but I've found a real BAD BIG BUG...
>
> I tryed many time to install alternatively Debian/Sarge and Ubuntu Hoary
> (based on your Debian) In facts: I install Debian on a iMac/G3, and
> try... (only in mode console X11 does'nt work), and I trash all and
> install Ubuntu Hoary on the same Hardware (only the Network is not
> detected), and i re-trash all (because I use Ubuntu just to understand
> how X11 is configured... LOL), and i re-re-trash all Ubuntu, and
> re-install Debian .... etc... and so on (ad lib) (like a Whitehouse
> lyrics - Peter Sotos, Philip Best, and William Bennet...)
>
> So, I've finally found the BUG...
>
> Ubuntu recognize all my iMac G3 except the Network, but easy to fix with
> GNOME/interface...  and your EXCELLENT Debian (I mean it) dont recognize
> my Hardware (specialy the screen ATY Rage 128MB...) but Network is good,
> and all the Server Parts (applications) are OK...
>
> So the bug is ADMINISTRATIVE:
>
> WHY, You dont collaborate between the staff of Ubuntu (and reciprocally)
> to complete the EXCELLENT Debian i love so ?????
>
> That's a big question.
>
> A old man, homeless (this is true) in french we tell a man like me: "Un
> Clochard" or "Un Clodo" in a familiar way...
>
> best regards, and apologize for my bad english.  (i'm in the french part
> of Switzerland)
>
> Realy I love your system !!!  I mean it.
Thank you very much for your positive feedback and reasoned criticism.

The simple fact is that Ubuntu and Debian do tend to cooperate closely on
most technical issues.  But each distribution does some things better than
the other, as is generally true when comparing any two GNU/Linux
distributions.

The Debian Sarge release uses a program called "discover1" to discern what
hardware is on the system, so I would encourage you to file a bug report
against that package describing your problem.

Ubuntu and Debian both use the same installer (debian-installer), which in
turn uses discover1, so I am not sure why your hardware was detected on one
but not the other.  Perhaps Ubuntu has made additions to the discover
hardware database (in the discover-data package) that they haven't
contributed back yet, or which Debian did not get included in the package
in time for a sarge release.

I am CCing the maintainers of the discover1 package for their insights.

Thanks again for your feedback.  With your help, we can improve to your
satisfaction.  I encourage you to report problems when you find them via
the Debian Bug Tracking System.

--
G. Branden Robinson
Debian Project Leader
[hidden email]
http://people.debian.org/~branden/

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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Sven Luther
On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 01:52:47AM -0500, Branden Robinson / Debian Project Leader wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 02, 2005 at 12:39:16AM -0500, kristian david wrote:
> > Hi =o)
> >
> > I'm administratively a "NONAME" guy (homeless because of a
> > "Microcephaleous Gates" that is a kind of New-Digital-Nazi of the
> > world... with his friend Ballmy-the-monkey-dancer), and I love realy this
> > new "Sarge" release of your Debian, but I've found a real BAD BIG BUG...
> >
> > I tryed many time to install alternatively Debian/Sarge and Ubuntu Hoary
> > (based on your Debian) In facts: I install Debian on a iMac/G3, and
> > try... (only in mode console X11 does'nt work), and I trash all and
> > install Ubuntu Hoary on the same Hardware (only the Network is not
> > detected), and i re-trash all (because I use Ubuntu just to understand
> > how X11 is configured... LOL), and i re-re-trash all Ubuntu, and
> > re-install Debian .... etc... and so on (ad lib) (like a Whitehouse
> > lyrics - Peter Sotos, Philip Best, and William Bennet...)
> >
> > So, I've finally found the BUG...
> >
> > Ubuntu recognize all my iMac G3 except the Network, but easy to fix with
> > GNOME/interface...  and your EXCELLENT Debian (I mean it) dont recognize
> > my Hardware (specialy the screen ATY Rage 128MB...) but Network is good,
> > and all the Server Parts (applications) are OK...
> >
> > So the bug is ADMINISTRATIVE:
> >
> > WHY, You dont collaborate between the staff of Ubuntu (and reciprocally)
> > to complete the EXCELLENT Debian i love so ?????
> >
> > That's a big question.
> >
> > A old man, homeless (this is true) in french we tell a man like me: "Un
> > Clochard" or "Un Clodo" in a familiar way...
> >
> > best regards, and apologize for my bad english.  (i'm in the french part
> > of Switzerland)
> >
> > Realy I love your system !!!  I mean it.
>
> Thank you very much for your positive feedback and reasoned criticism.
>
> The simple fact is that Ubuntu and Debian do tend to cooperate closely on
> most technical issues.  But each distribution does some things better than
> the other, as is generally true when comparing any two GNU/Linux
> distributions.
>
> The Debian Sarge release uses a program called "discover1" to discern what
> hardware is on the system, so I would encourage you to file a bug report
> against that package describing your problem.
>
> Ubuntu and Debian both use the same installer (debian-installer), which in
> turn uses discover1, so I am not sure why your hardware was detected on one
> but not the other.  Perhaps Ubuntu has made additions to the discover
> hardware database (in the discover-data package) that they haven't
> contributed back yet, or which Debian did not get included in the package
> in time for a sarge release.

Hi Branden, ...

I think from past experience, that this has nothing to do with the installer,
since the only time the graphic card is of interest is during the xfree86
configuration, and i have had similar experience with the ati wrapper not
recognizing my radeon 9200SE cards due to them matching the second head. I
don't rememebr the bug report about this out of hand, but it is over a year
old or so, and was never fixed.

It is well possible that a similar detection problem is present in the XFree86
package, and the fact that it works fine in ubuntu is probably due to them
using X.org, where this bug is absent.

So, the bug is an xfree86 bug, and thus CCing debian-x.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Frans Pop
On Thursday 08 September 2005 10:22, Sven Luther wrote:
> It is well possible that a similar detection problem is present in the
> XFree86 package, and the fact that it works fine in ubuntu is probably
> due to them using X.org, where this bug is absent.

Another possible reason for differences is that Ubuntu Hoary uses a
different kernel (2.6.10 IIRC) than Sarge (2.6.8).

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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Sven Luther
On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 12:43:31PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Thursday 08 September 2005 10:22, Sven Luther wrote:
> > It is well possible that a similar detection problem is present in the
> > XFree86 package, and the fact that it works fine in ubuntu is probably
> > due to them using X.org, where this bug is absent.
>
> Another possible reason for differences is that Ubuntu Hoary uses a
> different kernel (2.6.10 IIRC) than Sarge (2.6.8).

No chance it could affect X and the graphic card detection though.

Just terminally broken X configuration stuff, and we all knew this was the
case well in advance of the release and chose to do nothing about it.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Colin Watson
In reply to this post by Frans Pop
On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 12:43:31PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Thursday 08 September 2005 10:22, Sven Luther wrote:
> > It is well possible that a similar detection problem is present in the
> > XFree86 package, and the fact that it works fine in ubuntu is probably
> > due to them using X.org, where this bug is absent.
>
> Another possible reason for differences is that Ubuntu Hoary uses a
> different kernel (2.6.10 IIRC) than Sarge (2.6.8).

Also hotplug in the installer rather than discover, which could easily
make a difference to hardware detection (and shifts more of the burden
to the kernel, so kernel versions are more likely to make a difference
to what hardware is detected). I've contributed that code from Ubuntu
back to d-i so that it can be enabled by building the initrd in a
different way, but I can't make the decision for Debian on whether to
use discover or hotplug. This makes it quite difficult for me to deal
with mails that say "Ubuntu can detect this but Debian can't; why
haven't you contributed these improvements?", because in many cases
there's little more I can do.

(It's true that I didn't manage to get the hotplug stuff into d-i before
sarge released, though. Mea culpa.)

Cheers,

--
Colin Watson                                       [[hidden email]]


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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Joey Hess
(Removing some ccs including [hidden email].)

Colin Watson wrote:

> Also hotplug in the installer rather than discover, which could easily
> make a difference to hardware detection (and shifts more of the burden
> to the kernel, so kernel versions are more likely to make a difference
> to what hardware is detected). I've contributed that code from Ubuntu
> back to d-i so that it can be enabled by building the initrd in a
> different way, but I can't make the decision for Debian on whether to
> use discover or hotplug. This makes it quite difficult for me to deal
> with mails that say "Ubuntu can detect this but Debian can't; why
> haven't you contributed these improvements?", because in many cases
> there's little more I can do.
>
> (It's true that I didn't manage to get the hotplug stuff into d-i before
> sarge released, though. Mea culpa.)
Is all the hotplug stuff (ie, udebs) actually ready to go now in sid?
Last I heard, there were still some udebs to be put together.

Also, will it work on all arches (I imagine it won't on m68k/2.2), or
will we need to use hotplug on some and discover on others?

--
see shy jo

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Re: bug administratif... (administrativ bug found...)

Frans Pop
On Thursday 08 September 2005 19:39, Joey Hess wrote:
> Also, will it work on all arches (I imagine it won't on m68k/2.2), or
> will we need to use hotplug on some and discover on others?

Won't it also not work (or at least have to fall back to discover)
anywhere we still use 2.4?

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