Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

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Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Andreas Tille-5
Hi Blends developers

today I sat together with some people who intend to update Debian web
pages.  On one hand they care about design they also care about content
and structure of content.  The structure should be unified and the
content should be updated by not only provide up to date information but
also by deleting stuff that is irrelevant.

It turned out that for some Blends the information is recent and well
maintained, some Blends care not much about their documentation but are
active otherwise (shame on me that I consider Debian Med in this
category) and some Blends were either never really active or are not
active any more.  The people who are working on new web pages want to
provide current information and thus want remove the last category
which I will refer to as "inactive" below.  (If you are actually
consider yourself inactive or do not know what I'm writing about you
could stop reading here in principle since any response is only
expected from active Blends.)

To find out what Blend should be considered as active I proposed to
write this e-mail to the main communication channel and ask the
developers of the Blend to confirm they consider themselves an active
Blend and will provide more content about that Blend to the web team if
requested to do so.

This mail goes to the mailing list of all those Blends that are listed
under

    http://www.debian.org/blends     [1]

as well as those projects that are featuring metapackage code in Git
and have a mailing list or only a private mail address since no
mailing list existed or the mailing list vanished by the shutdown
of alioth since nobody cared about the migration (if those single
maintainers do not know what this mail is about they certainly fall
under the category "inactive" and do not need respond anyway.)

So please every Blend team that wants to be listed on [1]
in future please write an e-mail to

    Thomas Lange <[hidden email]>

confirming that this Blend is active and wants to be represented
on the official Debian Web site.  We actually want to unify the
presentation of Blends and you should name a default entry page
for your Blend.  Currently we have some very positive examples
like

    Debian Astro:   https://blends.debian.org/astro/
    Debian Edu:     https://blends.debian.org/edu/

We also have the "care not so much about documentation ones"

    Debian Med:     https://blends.debian.org/med/
    Debian Games:   https://blends.debian.org/games/
or even worse
    Debian Junior:  https://blends.debian.org/junior/

ones and those who simply maintain just a Wiki page.  Once you confirmed
that your Blend is active you should probably start working on this -
possibly by discussing some common standard for the Blends entry page on
the general Blends list ([hidden email])

--
http://fam-tille.de

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Andreas Tille-5
Hi,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:41:03PM -0300, [hidden email] wrote:
> Good morning Andreas, since the debianlex project was abandoned, i have the intention to assume it,

What is your actual plan to resume it?

> trying in the meantime to get together a team of lawyers that are specialists in digital law to aid me, so, it is possible to make me the head of that project?

In Debian you usually become the head of a group by just doing something
in the first place and other agree that it is sensible.  You do not
become head by asking into the void whether you can be the head.  Just
do something, stir some discussion on the debian-lex mailing list,
package something that is relevant for lawyers or something like this.
If I were you I would start with an introduction on the debian-lex
mailing list.

> the contacts in debianlex page are offline since last updates, they dont asnwer.

This is what I expected.

Kind regards

     Andreas.

PS: Since several people in the past approached me by private mail I'd
like to tell in advance that there is no point in private conversation.
Please always stick to open discussion on the mailing list - I have no
private hints to share.

--
http://fam-tille.de

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck


hi all,

I just found this email by a funny coincidence. I diedent use this mail adress for years.
I had to smile a little, because years ago I also had the idea to "look in" at Debian and offer me as head.
I always like to do this because then it's impossible to get another head-of and the hirarchies stay flat so that the fun can stay too hahaha
Well, fun aside.
I want to narrow down the most wanted Deban-LEX project a bit.
If one wanted to make a debian blend out of this, then differs from the previous blends probably in that in the area of Legaltech
hardly an internatinalization takes place.
As development cycles are quite slow for both Debian and lawyers, I would say let's look at how the legal system works
in Europe, the US and the rest of the world maybe in 20 years.
With the DSGVO / GDPR we have the first comprehensive directive in the EU,  the first EU law of some relevance.
In fact, one could think that the decisions of the ECJ will create a common law and eleminate most national differences
As far as the legal approach is concerned in this area, they are not that big that you can at least try.
But I suspect that this national harmonization will not go so far as to have unified networks or interfaces for Lawyers in 20 years, and
presumably there will not even be standardized interface descriptions / data descriptions until then.
I think (Tele)Fax is loosing attention but is still important in german legal system. Its often the only possibility to send
messages to state authorities in time by Fax,  as E-Mail usually is not admitted and the only other way is to use an 24h physical mailbox outside the building which is difficult when you are somewhere else.
There is litterally no living communety wich sees any future in this technique so projects like hylafax die out. I think I tried there
one  provided version several times wich could not run because of a bug and no one there who told anyone about this.


Any Fax Web application is unsecure, because you have to transport the PDF data over internet, most often ony protected by SSL and the PDF file will shortly be saved at the receiving server and
on the drive there. This is so bad, that most providers who offer software-fax-printer dont even think about these files and that they fall within the scope of GDPR/DSGVO.  They argue that they are
communiaction providers and not content providers but this is untrue when it comes to logfiles and these fax-files and also personal base data. So this is gap of compliance and data securety by design and by default as these comprehensive data seems not to exist for any known  by me provider.

For legal data standards, there are in Germany a few approaches that are well-intentioned, but let's face it, these are useless in practice because they are either only one-sided
authority and/or only cover a small subarea and have already been made from the point of view only to achieve a medium-term goal.
They limit new developments so that they could only be implimented as a kind of "view", but nothing shoudl be build based on it.
Then there are huge differences in the national legal systems even as far as the self-understanding of legal work is concerned. While in the Anglo-American area
the caselaw is used (find a decision that was "the same" like here) exactly this approach here in Germany actually spoiled and if it is implemented by judges, that's always
a sign that individual rights are probably cut, because again was not looked closely and should be made equal so that it goes fast for the court but shouldnt. Here
In Germany, instead of case-law, there is the legal methodology.
These differences, which are huge in the application of law, will not be so strong for a Debian blend at a first look, because that's what it is
as a personel work the lawyer remains while using a system. But it goes deeper at secound look.

What will remain different are connections to official communication systems, (case and other law related) databases and I am not sure if a data management system
for lawyers internationally could be developed in a way that it still makes sense beacause it should be good peace of software too and might get senseless overheads.
Michael Stehmann from Canzeley has already implemented nationally different formatting of address data, but this is only a small part of what then
exists as national differences. I also did so, as every Lawyer sometimes wants to contact foreign attorneys or authorites.
Then there is the question as to which techniques are provided in the Debian blend.
I am currently working with a Linux MINT LMDE 3, which is also based on Debian. I had an approach with a Debian 9 before, which I build myself
from a headless system and then everything that is potentially security relevant was gone. Unfortunately Java is needed anyway by the German beA system,
I wrote letters at time years ago to prevent this but never got an answer and feel some cind of alone and frustrated as the startup of it really messed and got worse then I expected when I wrote my letters.
Today, after I only work with LUKS encrypted virtual machines based on debian, I would not put any more data directly on a host system beacause of practical needs. I dont use network / server with this mashine.

This could fit common needs of a blend, as it should not make any difference where it is installed.

It's very handy if you have an installation with 15-40GB on it all and you can just copy over Thunderbold 3 with 1GB / second the wohle virtual disk
or you work directly on an external NVMe SSD with few of these systems on it.

I have included email with Thunderbird, where I am currently migrating e-mail into my law firm system so that they can be automatically assigned and appear in the mandates.
In addition, I am not so good with the Thunderbird spam filter and because I work with catch all e-mails that I use only 1x is that just easier to implement with my own code / spam filters / receive system.

I have the following programs installed (sometimes as an approach for discussion)
- efax-gtk (is hardly used) I failed because I set up a hylafax and then run on Voip at O2, so ring through yes, fax no and that with both standard transmission standards
- Linphone (theoretically goes over Voip phone but I do not use it anymore)
- Signal / Chromium (I do not trust but more than WhatsApp, allegedly, the operator does not give data to the US government or does not store them, it would be better if they can not safe any data by architecture because they include their own key locally)
- Firefox with some shortcuts to pages I usw as Lawyer
- Thunderbird with Enigmail (Enigmail PGP I use isolated, in the past there were sometimes problems with updates where then nothing worked)
- WebHHTPTrack to locally save websites as evidence
- beA Securety Client with its own Java library (German "lawyer's mail")
- Jameica / Hibiscus (online banking, unfortunately PINs can not be stored in the software, so it is not practical for many accounts)
- Open office writer
- gscan2pdf (very functional and practical scan software which supports different pdf libs but rarely causes problems, especially if scanners are not detected wich works on xsane)
- of course my own unpublished law firm software, which does all the rest and is a big project for itself

I have set it up so that the browsers have a non-existent local proxy set up and only the websites I have specified in a whitelist are enabled, and plugins are installed,
which prevent the loading of scripts, flash, etc. these could be eventually be eleminated or turnd off as they are a risk for themselfes

Hardware:
Rainer SCT chip card reader

Propreritary software
brother printer driver / scanner driver / fax driver

For backups I use rsync some bash code and cron

Within the framework of GDPR / DSGVO, all accesses to the system should be logged, especially if several users have access, ideally data should also be deleted from the backups at the time of deletion,
etc. etc. etc....

So building a Debian Flavor would mean:
make it compliant for use in pracis, things never anyone thought about!


In addition I use an E-Mail Server for receiving with postfix and dovecot. This is not part of my working system as it stays at one place while the working system gets copied and goes where I go.
For some cases I use an proxy server as well, so I have different network settings.

 

Best regards
Michael Guck

 

 

Andreas Tille schrieb am 23.07.2019 18:50 (GMT +02:00):

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:41:03PM -0300, [hidden email] wrote:
> Good morning Andreas, since the debianlex project was abandoned, i have the
> intention to assume it,

What is your actual plan to resume it?

> trying in the meantime to get together a team of lawyers that are specialists
> in digital law to aid me, so, it is possible to make me the head of that
> project?

In Debian you usually become the head of a group by just doing something
in the first place and other agree that it is sensible.  You do not
become head by asking into the void whether you can be the head.  Just
do something, stir some discussion on the debian-lex mailing list,
package something that is relevant for lawyers or something like this.
If I were you I would start with an introduction on the debian-lex
mailing list.

> the contacts in debianlex page are offline since last updates, they dont
> asnwer.

This is what I expected.

Kind regards

     Andreas.

PS: Since several people in the past approached me by private mail I'd
like to tell in advance that there is no point in private conversation.
Please always stick to open discussion on the mailing list - I have no
private hints to share.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Jens Kutschke, j-lawyer.org
Good compilation of software, thanks.

I can throw j-lawyer.org (an open source case management licensed under AGPLv3) into the ring as an addition. I had spoken to Andreas earlier this year, and have made some progress in the meantime with regards to packaging (.deb available now, in addition to a more generic .sh installer).

Cheers,
Jens



Am 07.10.19 um 23:53 schrieb [hidden email]:


hi all,

I just found this email by a funny coincidence. I diedent use this mail adress for years.
I had to smile a little, because years ago I also had the idea to "look in" at Debian and offer me as head.
I always like to do this because then it's impossible to get another head-of and the hirarchies stay flat so that the fun can stay too hahaha
Well, fun aside.
I want to narrow down the most wanted Deban-LEX project a bit.
If one wanted to make a debian blend out of this, then differs from the previous blends probably in that in the area of Legaltech
hardly an internatinalization takes place.
As development cycles are quite slow for both Debian and lawyers, I would say let's look at how the legal system works
in Europe, the US and the rest of the world maybe in 20 years.
With the DSGVO / GDPR we have the first comprehensive directive in the EU,  the first EU law of some relevance.
In fact, one could think that the decisions of the ECJ will create a common law and eleminate most national differences
As far as the legal approach is concerned in this area, they are not that big that you can at least try.
But I suspect that this national harmonization will not go so far as to have unified networks or interfaces for Lawyers in 20 years, and
presumably there will not even be standardized interface descriptions / data descriptions until then.
I think (Tele)Fax is loosing attention but is still important in german legal system. Its often the only possibility to send
messages to state authorities in time by Fax,  as E-Mail usually is not admitted and the only other way is to use an 24h physical mailbox outside the building which is difficult when you are somewhere else.
There is litterally no living communety wich sees any future in this technique so projects like hylafax die out. I think I tried there
one  provided version several times wich could not run because of a bug and no one there who told anyone about this.


Any Fax Web application is unsecure, because you have to transport the PDF data over internet, most often ony protected by SSL and the PDF file will shortly be saved at the receiving server and
on the drive there. This is so bad, that most providers who offer software-fax-printer dont even think about these files and that they fall within the scope of GDPR/DSGVO.  They argue that they are
communiaction providers and not content providers but this is untrue when it comes to logfiles and these fax-files and also personal base data. So this is gap of compliance and data securety by design and by default as these comprehensive data seems not to exist for any known  by me provider.

For legal data standards, there are in Germany a few approaches that are well-intentioned, but let's face it, these are useless in practice because they are either only one-sided
authority and/or only cover a small subarea and have already been made from the point of view only to achieve a medium-term goal.
They limit new developments so that they could only be implimented as a kind of "view", but nothing shoudl be build based on it.
Then there are huge differences in the national legal systems even as far as the self-understanding of legal work is concerned. While in the Anglo-American area
the caselaw is used (find a decision that was "the same" like here) exactly this approach here in Germany actually spoiled and if it is implemented by judges, that's always
a sign that individual rights are probably cut, because again was not looked closely and should be made equal so that it goes fast for the court but shouldnt. Here
In Germany, instead of case-law, there is the legal methodology.
These differences, which are huge in the application of law, will not be so strong for a Debian blend at a first look, because that's what it is
as a personel work the lawyer remains while using a system. But it goes deeper at secound look.

What will remain different are connections to official communication systems, (case and other law related) databases and I am not sure if a data management system
for lawyers internationally could be developed in a way that it still makes sense beacause it should be good peace of software too and might get senseless overheads.
Michael Stehmann from Canzeley has already implemented nationally different formatting of address data, but this is only a small part of what then
exists as national differences. I also did so, as every Lawyer sometimes wants to contact foreign attorneys or authorites.
Then there is the question as to which techniques are provided in the Debian blend.
I am currently working with a Linux MINT LMDE 3, which is also based on Debian. I had an approach with a Debian 9 before, which I build myself
from a headless system and then everything that is potentially security relevant was gone. Unfortunately Java is needed anyway by the German beA system,
I wrote letters at time years ago to prevent this but never got an answer and feel some cind of alone and frustrated as the startup of it really messed and got worse then I expected when I wrote my letters.
Today, after I only work with LUKS encrypted virtual machines based on debian, I would not put any more data directly on a host system beacause of practical needs. I dont use network / server with this mashine.

This could fit common needs of a blend, as it should not make any difference where it is installed.

It's very handy if you have an installation with 15-40GB on it all and you can just copy over Thunderbold 3 with 1GB / second the wohle virtual disk
or you work directly on an external NVMe SSD with few of these systems on it.

I have included email with Thunderbird, where I am currently migrating e-mail into my law firm system so that they can be automatically assigned and appear in the mandates.
In addition, I am not so good with the Thunderbird spam filter and because I work with catch all e-mails that I use only 1x is that just easier to implement with my own code / spam filters / receive system.

I have the following programs installed (sometimes as an approach for discussion)
- efax-gtk (is hardly used) I failed because I set up a hylafax and then run on Voip at O2, so ring through yes, fax no and that with both standard transmission standards
- Linphone (theoretically goes over Voip phone but I do not use it anymore)
- Signal / Chromium (I do not trust but more than WhatsApp, allegedly, the operator does not give data to the US government or does not store them, it would be better if they can not safe any data by architecture because they include their own key locally)
- Firefox with some shortcuts to pages I usw as Lawyer
- Thunderbird with Enigmail (Enigmail PGP I use isolated, in the past there were sometimes problems with updates where then nothing worked)
- WebHHTPTrack to locally save websites as evidence
- beA Securety Client with its own Java library (German "lawyer's mail")
- Jameica / Hibiscus (online banking, unfortunately PINs can not be stored in the software, so it is not practical for many accounts)
- Open office writer
- gscan2pdf (very functional and practical scan software which supports different pdf libs but rarely causes problems, especially if scanners are not detected wich works on xsane)
- of course my own unpublished law firm software, which does all the rest and is a big project for itself

I have set it up so that the browsers have a non-existent local proxy set up and only the websites I have specified in a whitelist are enabled, and plugins are installed,
which prevent the loading of scripts, flash, etc. these could be eventually be eleminated or turnd off as they are a risk for themselfes

Hardware:
Rainer SCT chip card reader

Propreritary software
brother printer driver / scanner driver / fax driver

For backups I use rsync some bash code and cron

Within the framework of GDPR / DSGVO, all accesses to the system should be logged, especially if several users have access, ideally data should also be deleted from the backups at the time of deletion,
etc. etc. etc....

So building a Debian Flavor would mean:
make it compliant for use in pracis, things never anyone thought about!


In addition I use an E-Mail Server for receiving with postfix and dovecot. This is not part of my working system as it stays at one place while the working system gets copied and goes where I go.
For some cases I use an proxy server as well, so I have different network settings.

 

Best regards
Michael Guck

 

 

Andreas Tille schrieb am 23.07.2019 18:50 (GMT +02:00):

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:41:03PM -0300, [hidden email] wrote:
> Good morning Andreas, since the debianlex project was abandoned, i have the
> intention to assume it,

What is your actual plan to resume it?

> trying in the meantime to get together a team of lawyers that are specialists
> in digital law to aid me, so, it is possible to make me the head of that
> project?

In Debian you usually become the head of a group by just doing something
in the first place and other agree that it is sensible.  You do not
become head by asking into the void whether you can be the head.  Just
do something, stir some discussion on the debian-lex mailing list,
package something that is relevant for lawyers or something like this.
If I were you I would start with an introduction on the debian-lex
mailing list.

> the contacts in debianlex page are offline since last updates, they dont
> asnwer.

This is what I expected.

Kind regards

     Andreas.

PS: Since several people in the past approached me by private mail I'd
like to tell in advance that there is no point in private conversation.
Please always stick to open discussion on the mailing list - I have no
private hints to share.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de


Viele Grüsse,
Jens Kutschke
(j-lawyer.org)

-- 
https://www.j-lawyer.org
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jlawyerorg
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jlawyerorg
Google+: https://plus.google.com/b/101818317409234403784/101818317409234403784
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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Mechtilde Stehmann-2
Hello,

and I learn to pack software written in Java. This is slowly making
progress.

As j-lawyer is written in Java, it is a prerequisite to be able to
package  j-lawyer,

I'm glad if some more people step in to help packaging it.

I put together some inforamtions about free software which can use in
alawyer office. These packages are mostly packaged in Debian.

https://wiki.debian.org/OfficeApplication

Kind regards

Mechtilde

Am 08.10.19 um 00:11 schrieb Jens Kutschke, j-lawyer.org:

> Good compilation of software, thanks.
>
> I can throw j-lawyer.org (an open source case management licensed under
> AGPLv3) into the ring as an addition. I had spoken to Andreas earlier
> this year, and have made some progress in the meantime with regards to
> packaging (.deb available now, in addition to a more generic .sh installer).
>
> Cheers,
> Jens
>
> Am 07.10.19 um 23:53 schrieb [hidden email]:
>>
>> hi all,
>>
>> I just found this email by a funny coincidence. I diedent use this
>> mail adress for years.
>> I had to smile a little, because years ago I also had the idea to
>> "look in" at Debian and offer me as head.
>> I always like to do this because then it's impossible to get another
>> head-of and the hirarchies stay flat so that the fun can stay too hahaha
>> Well, fun aside.
>> I want to narrow down the most wanted Deban-LEX project a bit.
>> If one wanted to make a debian blend out of this, then differs from
>> the previous blends probably in that in the area of Legaltech
>> hardly an internatinalization takes place.
>> As development cycles are quite slow for both Debian and lawyers, I
>> would say let's look at how the legal system works
>> in Europe, the US and the rest of the world maybe in 20 years.
>> With the DSGVO / GDPR we have the first comprehensive directive in the
>> EU,  the first EU law of some relevance.
>> In fact, one could think that the decisions of the ECJ will create a
>> common law and eleminate most national differences
>> As far as the legal approach is concerned in this area, they are not
>> that big that you can at least try.
>> But I suspect that this national harmonization will not go so far as
>> to have unified networks or interfaces for Lawyers in 20 years, and
>> presumably there will not even be standardized interface descriptions
>> / data descriptions until then.
>> I think (Tele)Fax is loosing attention but is still important in
>> german legal system. Its often the only possibility to send
>> messages to state authorities in time by Fax,  as E-Mail usually is
>> not admitted and the only other way is to use an 24h physical mailbox
>> outside the building which is difficult when you are somewhere else.
>> There is litterally no living communety wich sees any future in this
>> technique so projects like hylafax die out. I think I tried there
>> one  provided version several times wich could not run because of a
>> bug and no one there who told anyone about this.
>>
>>
>> Any Fax Web application is unsecure, because you have to transport the
>> PDF data over internet, most often ony protected by SSL and the PDF
>> file will shortly be saved at the receiving server and
>> on the drive there. This is so bad, that most providers who offer
>> software-fax-printer dont even think about these files and that they
>> fall within the scope of GDPR/DSGVO.  They argue that they are
>> communiaction providers and not content providers but this is untrue
>> when it comes to logfiles and these fax-files and also personal base
>> data. So this is gap of compliance and data securety by design and by
>> default as these comprehensive data seems not to exist for any known 
>> by me provider.
>>
>> For legal data standards, there are in Germany a few approaches that
>> are well-intentioned, but let's face it, these are useless in practice
>> because they are either only one-sided
>> authority and/or only cover a small subarea and have already been made
>> from the point of view only to achieve a medium-term goal.
>> They limit new developments so that they could only be implimented as
>> a kind of "view", but nothing shoudl be build based on it.
>> Then there are huge differences in the national legal systems even as
>> far as the self-understanding of legal work is concerned. While in the
>> Anglo-American area
>> the caselaw is used (find a decision that was "the same" like here)
>> exactly this approach here in Germany actually spoiled and if it is
>> implemented by judges, that's always
>> a sign that individual rights are probably cut, because again was not
>> looked closely and should be made equal so that it goes fast for the
>> court but shouldnt. Here
>> In Germany, instead of case-law, there is the legal methodology.
>> These differences, which are huge in the application of law, will not
>> be so strong for a Debian blend at a first look, because that's what it is
>> as a personel work the lawyer remains while using a system. But it
>> goes deeper at secound look.
>>
>> What will remain different are connections to official communication
>> systems, (case and other law related) databases and I am not sure if a
>> data management system
>> for lawyers internationally could be developed in a way that it still
>> makes sense beacause it should be good peace of software too and might
>> get senseless overheads.
>> Michael Stehmann from Canzeley has already implemented nationally
>> different formatting of address data, but this is only a small part of
>> what then
>> exists as national differences. I also did so, as every Lawyer
>> sometimes wants to contact foreign attorneys or authorites.
>> Then there is the question as to which techniques are provided in the
>> Debian blend.
>> I am currently working with a Linux MINT LMDE 3, which is also based
>> on Debian. I had an approach with a Debian 9 before, which I build myself
>> from a headless system and then everything that is potentially
>> security relevant was gone. Unfortunately Java is needed anyway by the
>> German beA system,
>> I wrote letters at time years ago to prevent this but never got an
>> answer and feel some cind of alone and frustrated as the startup of it
>> really messed and got worse then I expected when I wrote my letters.
>> Today, after I only work with LUKS encrypted virtual machines based on
>> debian, I would not put any more data directly on a host system
>> beacause of practical needs. I dont use network / server with this
>> mashine.
>>
>> This could fit common needs of a blend, as it should not make any
>> difference where it is installed.
>>
>> It's very handy if you have an installation with 15-40GB on it all and
>> you can just copy over Thunderbold 3 with 1GB / second the wohle
>> virtual disk
>> or you work directly on an external NVMe SSD with few of these systems
>> on it.
>>
>> I have included email with Thunderbird, where I am currently migrating
>> e-mail into my law firm system so that they can be automatically
>> assigned and appear in the mandates.
>> In addition, I am not so good with the Thunderbird spam filter and
>> because I work with catch all e-mails that I use only 1x is that just
>> easier to implement with my own code / spam filters / receive system.
>>
>> I have the following programs installed (sometimes as an approach for
>> discussion)
>> - efax-gtk (is hardly used) I failed because I set up a hylafax and
>> then run on Voip at O2, so ring through yes, fax no and that with both
>> standard transmission standards
>> - Linphone (theoretically goes over Voip phone but I do not use it
>> anymore)
>> - Signal / Chromium (I do not trust but more than WhatsApp, allegedly,
>> the operator does not give data to the US government or does not store
>> them, it would be better if they can not safe any data by architecture
>> because they include their own key locally)
>> - Firefox with some shortcuts to pages I usw as Lawyer
>> - Thunderbird with Enigmail (Enigmail PGP I use isolated, in the past
>> there were sometimes problems with updates where then nothing worked)
>> - WebHHTPTrack to locally save websites as evidence
>> - beA Securety Client with its own Java library (German "lawyer's mail")
>> - Jameica / Hibiscus (online banking, unfortunately PINs can not be
>> stored in the software, so it is not practical for many accounts)
>> - Open office writer
>> - gscan2pdf (very functional and practical scan software which
>> supports different pdf libs but rarely causes problems, especially if
>> scanners are not detected wich works on xsane)
>> - of course my own unpublished law firm software, which does all the
>> rest and is a big project for itself
>>
>> I have set it up so that the browsers have a non-existent local proxy
>> set up and only the websites I have specified in a whitelist are
>> enabled, and plugins are installed,
>> which prevent the loading of scripts, flash, etc. these could be
>> eventually be eleminated or turnd off as they are a risk for themselfes
>>
>> Hardware:
>> Rainer SCT chip card reader
>>
>> Propreritary software
>> brother printer driver / scanner driver / fax driver
>>
>> For backups I use rsync some bash code and cron
>>
>> Within the framework of GDPR / DSGVO, all accesses to the system
>> should be logged, especially if several users have access, ideally
>> data should also be deleted from the backups at the time of deletion,
>> etc. etc. etc....
>>
>> So building a Debian Flavor would mean:
>> make it compliant for use in pracis, things never anyone thought about!
>>
>>
>> In addition I use an E-Mail Server for receiving with postfix and
>> dovecot. This is not part of my working system as it stays at one
>> place while the working system gets copied and goes where I go.
>> For some cases I use an proxy server as well, so I have different
>> network settings.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Best regards
>> Michael Guck
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> Andreas Tille schrieb am 23.07.2019 18:50 (GMT +02:00):
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:41:03PM -0300, [hidden email] wrote:
>>     > Good morning Andreas, since the debianlex project was abandoned, i have the
>>     > intention to assume it,
>>
>>     What is your actual plan to resume it?
>>
>>     > trying in the meantime to get together a team of lawyers that are specialists
>>     > in digital law to aid me, so, it is possible to make me the head of that
>>     > project?
>>
>>     In Debian you usually become the head of a group by just doing something
>>     in the first place and other agree that it is sensible.  You do not
>>     become head by asking into the void whether you can be the head.  Just
>>     do something, stir some discussion on the debian-lex mailing list,
>>     package something that is relevant for lawyers or something like this.
>>     If I were you I would start with an introduction on the debian-lex
>>     mailing list.
>>
>>     > the contacts in debianlex page are offline since last updates, they dont
>>     > asnwer.
>>
>>     This is what I expected.
>>
>>     Kind regards
>>
>>          Andreas.
>>
>>     PS: Since several people in the past approached me by private mail I'd
>>     like to tell in advance that there is no point in private conversation.
>>     Please always stick to open discussion on the mailing list - I have no
>>     private hints to share.
>>
>>     --
>>     http://fam-tille.de
>>
>
> Viele Grüsse,
> Jens Kutschke
> (j-lawyer.org)
>
--
Mechtilde Stehmann
## Apache OpenOffice
## Freie Office Suite für Linux, MacOSX, Windows
## Debian Developer
## PGP encryption welcome
## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899  39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F


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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
In reply to this post by Andreas Tille-5
Hi Mechthilde,


it would be helpfull if we could discuss first how to initialise a
"debian lex" project.

There could be an base (l~international) version wich misses national
applications and on wich national blends could be build on.

This could be a help for later national versions of smaller states.
Could be seen as fork of base version.

For the base version I would take a step back from java due to
nerverending securety issues.

For international version also Fax must not be implemented, as this is
more often a German technique and will cause increasing trouble in future.

We also have lack of authority so that members of debian lex would have
to gain personel trust first and meanwhile we need trusted members to
make releases.

I would like to set a deep view on which techiques can be implemented
and in doubt I prefere a not yet complete version before something what
is open in attack by default.


Best Greetings

Michael Guck






Am 08.10.19 um 18:55 schrieb Mechtilde:

> Hello,
>
> and I learn to pack software written in Java. This is slowly making
> progress.
>
> As j-lawyer is written in Java, it is a prerequisite to be able to
> package j-lawyer,
>
> I'm glad if some more people step in to help packaging it.
>
> I put together some inforamtions about free software which can use in
> alawyer office. These packages are mostly packaged in Debian.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/OfficeApplication
>
> Kind regards
>
> Mechtilde
>
> Am 08.10.19 um 00:11 schrieb Jens Kutschke, j-lawyer.org:
>> Good compilation of software, thanks.
>>
>> I can throw j-lawyer.org (an open source case management licensed under
>> AGPLv3) into the ring as an addition. I had spoken to Andreas earlier
>> this year, and have made some progress in the meantime with regards to
>> packaging (.deb available now, in addition to a more generic .sh
>> installer).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jens
>>
>> Am 07.10.19 um 23:53 schrieb [hidden email]:
>>> hi all,
>>>
>>> I just found this email by a funny coincidence. I diedent use this
>>> mail adress for years.
>>> I had to smile a little, because years ago I also had the idea to
>>> "look in" at Debian and offer me as head.
>>> I always like to do this because then it's impossible to get another
>>> head-of and the hirarchies stay flat so that the fun can stay too hahaha
>>> Well, fun aside.
>>> I want to narrow down the most wanted Deban-LEX project a bit.
>>> If one wanted to make a debian blend out of this, then differs from
>>> the previous blends probably in that in the area of Legaltech
>>> hardly an internatinalization takes place.
>>> As development cycles are quite slow for both Debian and lawyers, I
>>> would say let's look at how the legal system works
>>> in Europe, the US and the rest of the world maybe in 20 years.
>>> With the DSGVO / GDPR we have the first comprehensive directive in the
>>> EU,  the first EU law of some relevance.
>>> In fact, one could think that the decisions of the ECJ will create a
>>> common law and eleminate most national differences
>>> As far as the legal approach is concerned in this area, they are not
>>> that big that you can at least try.
>>> But I suspect that this national harmonization will not go so far as
>>> to have unified networks or interfaces for Lawyers in 20 years, and
>>> presumably there will not even be standardized interface descriptions
>>> / data descriptions until then.
>>> I think (Tele)Fax is loosing attention but is still important in
>>> german legal system. Its often the only possibility to send
>>> messages to state authorities in time by Fax,  as E-Mail usually is
>>> not admitted and the only other way is to use an 24h physical mailbox
>>> outside the building which is difficult when you are somewhere else.
>>> There is litterally no living communety wich sees any future in this
>>> technique so projects like hylafax die out. I think I tried there
>>> one  provided version several times wich could not run because of a
>>> bug and no one there who told anyone about this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Any Fax Web application is unsecure, because you have to transport the
>>> PDF data over internet, most often ony protected by SSL and the PDF
>>> file will shortly be saved at the receiving server and
>>> on the drive there. This is so bad, that most providers who offer
>>> software-fax-printer dont even think about these files and that they
>>> fall within the scope of GDPR/DSGVO.  They argue that they are
>>> communiaction providers and not content providers but this is untrue
>>> when it comes to logfiles and these fax-files and also personal base
>>> data. So this is gap of compliance and data securety by design and by
>>> default as these comprehensive data seems not to exist for any known
>>> by me provider.
>>>
>>> For legal data standards, there are in Germany a few approaches that
>>> are well-intentioned, but let's face it, these are useless in practice
>>> because they are either only one-sided
>>> authority and/or only cover a small subarea and have already been made
>>> from the point of view only to achieve a medium-term goal.
>>> They limit new developments so that they could only be implimented as
>>> a kind of "view", but nothing shoudl be build based on it.
>>> Then there are huge differences in the national legal systems even as
>>> far as the self-understanding of legal work is concerned. While in the
>>> Anglo-American area
>>> the caselaw is used (find a decision that was "the same" like here)
>>> exactly this approach here in Germany actually spoiled and if it is
>>> implemented by judges, that's always
>>> a sign that individual rights are probably cut, because again was not
>>> looked closely and should be made equal so that it goes fast for the
>>> court but shouldnt. Here
>>> In Germany, instead of case-law, there is the legal methodology.
>>> These differences, which are huge in the application of law, will not
>>> be so strong for a Debian blend at a first look, because that's what
>>> it is
>>> as a personel work the lawyer remains while using a system. But it
>>> goes deeper at secound look.
>>>
>>> What will remain different are connections to official communication
>>> systems, (case and other law related) databases and I am not sure if a
>>> data management system
>>> for lawyers internationally could be developed in a way that it still
>>> makes sense beacause it should be good peace of software too and might
>>> get senseless overheads.
>>> Michael Stehmann from Canzeley has already implemented nationally
>>> different formatting of address data, but this is only a small part of
>>> what then
>>> exists as national differences. I also did so, as every Lawyer
>>> sometimes wants to contact foreign attorneys or authorites.
>>> Then there is the question as to which techniques are provided in the
>>> Debian blend.
>>> I am currently working with a Linux MINT LMDE 3, which is also based
>>> on Debian. I had an approach with a Debian 9 before, which I build
>>> myself
>>> from a headless system and then everything that is potentially
>>> security relevant was gone. Unfortunately Java is needed anyway by the
>>> German beA system,
>>> I wrote letters at time years ago to prevent this but never got an
>>> answer and feel some cind of alone and frustrated as the startup of it
>>> really messed and got worse then I expected when I wrote my letters.
>>> Today, after I only work with LUKS encrypted virtual machines based on
>>> debian, I would not put any more data directly on a host system
>>> beacause of practical needs. I dont use network / server with this
>>> mashine.
>>>
>>> This could fit common needs of a blend, as it should not make any
>>> difference where it is installed.
>>>
>>> It's very handy if you have an installation with 15-40GB on it all and
>>> you can just copy over Thunderbold 3 with 1GB / second the wohle
>>> virtual disk
>>> or you work directly on an external NVMe SSD with few of these systems
>>> on it.
>>>
>>> I have included email with Thunderbird, where I am currently migrating
>>> e-mail into my law firm system so that they can be automatically
>>> assigned and appear in the mandates.
>>> In addition, I am not so good with the Thunderbird spam filter and
>>> because I work with catch all e-mails that I use only 1x is that just
>>> easier to implement with my own code / spam filters / receive system.
>>>
>>> I have the following programs installed (sometimes as an approach for
>>> discussion)
>>> - efax-gtk (is hardly used) I failed because I set up a hylafax and
>>> then run on Voip at O2, so ring through yes, fax no and that with both
>>> standard transmission standards
>>> - Linphone (theoretically goes over Voip phone but I do not use it
>>> anymore)
>>> - Signal / Chromium (I do not trust but more than WhatsApp, allegedly,
>>> the operator does not give data to the US government or does not store
>>> them, it would be better if they can not safe any data by architecture
>>> because they include their own key locally)
>>> - Firefox with some shortcuts to pages I usw as Lawyer
>>> - Thunderbird with Enigmail (Enigmail PGP I use isolated, in the past
>>> there were sometimes problems with updates where then nothing worked)
>>> - WebHHTPTrack to locally save websites as evidence
>>> - beA Securety Client with its own Java library (German "lawyer's mail")
>>> - Jameica / Hibiscus (online banking, unfortunately PINs can not be
>>> stored in the software, so it is not practical for many accounts)
>>> - Open office writer
>>> - gscan2pdf (very functional and practical scan software which
>>> supports different pdf libs but rarely causes problems, especially if
>>> scanners are not detected wich works on xsane)
>>> - of course my own unpublished law firm software, which does all the
>>> rest and is a big project for itself
>>>
>>> I have set it up so that the browsers have a non-existent local proxy
>>> set up and only the websites I have specified in a whitelist are
>>> enabled, and plugins are installed,
>>> which prevent the loading of scripts, flash, etc. these could be
>>> eventually be eleminated or turnd off as they are a risk for themselfes
>>>
>>> Hardware:
>>> Rainer SCT chip card reader
>>>
>>> Propreritary software
>>> brother printer driver / scanner driver / fax driver
>>>
>>> For backups I use rsync some bash code and cron
>>>
>>> Within the framework of GDPR / DSGVO, all accesses to the system
>>> should be logged, especially if several users have access, ideally
>>> data should also be deleted from the backups at the time of deletion,
>>> etc. etc. etc....
>>>
>>> So building a Debian Flavor would mean:
>>> make it compliant for use in pracis, things never anyone thought about!
>>>
>>>
>>> In addition I use an E-Mail Server for receiving with postfix and
>>> dovecot. This is not part of my working system as it stays at one
>>> place while the working system gets copied and goes where I go.
>>> For some cases I use an proxy server as well, so I have different
>>> network settings.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Michael Guck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andreas Tille schrieb am 23.07.2019 18:50 (GMT +02:00):
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:41:03PM -0300, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> > Good morning Andreas, since the debianlex project was abandoned, i
>>> have the
>>> > intention to assume it,
>>>
>>> What is your actual plan to resume it?
>>>
>>> > trying in the meantime to get together a team of lawyers that are
>>> specialists
>>> > in digital law to aid me, so, it is possible to make me the head
>>> of that
>>> > project?
>>>
>>> In Debian you usually become the head of a group by just doing something
>>> in the first place and other agree that it is sensible. You do not
>>> become head by asking into the void whether you can be the head. Just
>>> do something, stir some discussion on the debian-lex mailing list,
>>> package something that is relevant for lawyers or something like this.
>>> If I were you I would start with an introduction on the debian-lex
>>> mailing list.
>>>
>>> > the contacts in debianlex page are offline since last updates,
>>> they dont
>>> > asnwer.
>>>
>>> This is what I expected.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Andreas.
>>>
>>> PS: Since several people in the past approached me by private mail I'd
>>> like to tell in advance that there is no point in private conversation.
>>> Please always stick to open discussion on the mailing list - I have no
>>> private hints to share.
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://fam-tille.de
>>>
>> Viele Grüsse,
>> Jens Kutschke
>> (j-lawyer.org)
>>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Mechtilde Stehmann-2
Hello,


Am 10.10.19 um 18:49 schrieb Michael Guck:
> Hi Mechtilde,
>
> it would be helpfull if we could discuss first how to initialise a
> "debian lex" project.

I prefer to take the software we have. I try to package it for the
Debian Repo. Then it is easier to hold them up-to-date.

I'm not a code developer.

The project has a long history. Many software came and went.

I know only two free solutions: libreoffice-cazeley-client, j-lawyer

Kind regards
--
Mechtilde Stehmann
## Debian Developer
## PGP encryption welcome
## F0E3 7F3D C87A 4998 2899  39E7 F287 7BBA 141A AD7F


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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
Hi Mechthilde,

so we come to no conclusion this time

I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and later on
everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.

Best Greetings

Michael Guck




Am 10.10.19 um 20:00 schrieb Mechtilde:

> Hello,
>
>
> Am 10.10.19 um 18:49 schrieb Michael Guck:
>> Hi Mechtilde,
>>
>> it would be helpfull if we could discuss first how to initialise a
>> "debian lex" project.
> I prefer to take the software we have. I try to package it for the
> Debian Repo. Then it is easier to hold them up-to-date.
>
> I'm not a code developer.
>
> The project has a long history. Many software came and went.
>
> I know only two free solutions: libreoffice-cazeley-client, j-lawyer
>
> Kind regards

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Jens Kutschke, j-lawyer.org
"later on everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes"

Way too much emotion in that discussion.

Btw, in Germany every lawyer needs to have Java installed due to the
fact that accessing his lawyers mailbox is not possible without it.


Cheers,
Jens


Am 10.10.19 um 21:00 schrieb Michael Guck:

> Hi Mechthilde,
>
> so we come to no conclusion this time
>
> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and later
> on everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.
>
> Best Greetings
>
> Michael Guck
>
>
>
>
> Am 10.10.19 um 20:00 schrieb Mechtilde:
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> Am 10.10.19 um 18:49 schrieb Michael Guck:
>>> Hi Mechtilde,
>>>
>>> it would be helpfull if we could discuss first how to initialise a
>>> "debian lex" project.
>> I prefer to take the software we have. I try to package it for the
>> Debian Repo. Then it is easier to hold them up-to-date.
>>
>> I'm not a code developer.
>>
>> The project has a long history. Many software came and went.
>>
>> I know only two free solutions: libreoffice-cazeley-client, j-lawyer
>>
>> Kind regards
>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
Hi all,

i wont use j-lawyer but its free software, anybody who wishes can.

Best Greetings

Michael Guck





Am 10.10.19 um 21:14 schrieb Jens Kutschke, j-lawyer.org:

> "later on everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes"
>
> Way too much emotion in that discussion.
>
> Btw, in Germany every lawyer needs to have Java installed due to the
> fact that accessing his lawyers mailbox is not possible without it.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Jens
>
>
> Am 10.10.19 um 21:00 schrieb Michael Guck:
>> Hi Mechthilde,
>>
>> so we come to no conclusion this time
>>
>> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and later
>> on everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.
>>
>> Best Greetings
>>
>> Michael Guck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 10.10.19 um 20:00 schrieb Mechtilde:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 10.10.19 um 18:49 schrieb Michael Guck:
>>>> Hi Mechtilde,
>>>>
>>>> it would be helpfull if we could discuss first how to initialise a
>>>> "debian lex" project.
>>> I prefer to take the software we have. I try to package it for the
>>> Debian Repo. Then it is easier to hold them up-to-date.
>>>
>>> I'm not a code developer.
>>>
>>> The project has a long history. Many software came and went.
>>>
>>> I know only two free solutions: libreoffice-cazeley-client, j-lawyer
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Mechtilde Stehmann

Hello,

yes, j-lawyer is Free Software, so everybody can use, studx, share and
improve it.

But it still has to be packed as a debian package.

That is a manageable task (IMO) and a good next thing to do (IMO).

Kind regards
Michael







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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
Hi Michael,

hi all,

I would like to set up a GDPR compliant install of a system with some
common sofortware like email and so on for debian lex. Thats much more
work at basic stuff for a system then many people would expect.  It cant
be done by one person.

I never published my system. That takes me in position to think over and
be free for a clear view.

I can not use j-lawer so this might be a step forward for someone, not
for me.

I am Lawyer and developer (C++/PHP) and want to get things done properly.

I dont want again java, I really tried hard to avoid this but it still
remains in minds of people as usefull. I better go with C++.

Best Greetings

Michael Guck


Am 11.10.19 um 09:45 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:

> Hello,
>
> yes, j-lawyer is Free Software, so everybody can use, studx, share and
> improve it.
>
> But it still has to be packed as a debian package.
>
> That is a manageable task (IMO) and a good next thing to do (IMO).
>
> Kind regards
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Andreas Tille-5
In reply to this post by Michael Guck
Hi,

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 09:00:18PM +0200, Michael Guck wrote:
> Hi Mechthilde,
>
> so we come to no conclusion this time

I don't understand it this way:  Mechthilde has drawn the conclusion to
do something (which I'm applauding).  She is following her point of view.
You are free to not contribute but that magical "we" that is not able
to find a conclusion does not seem to exist.
 
> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and later on
> everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.

If you think its a good idea just *do* what you consider a good idea.
Expecting others to consider your idea good is not very fruitful.

Kind regards

       Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
Hi Andreas,

how can I get out of this list?

Thank you!

Michael Guck


Am 11.10.19 um 10:53 schrieb Andreas Tille:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 09:00:18PM +0200, Michael Guck wrote:
>> Hi Mechthilde,
>>
>> so we come to no conclusion this time
> I don't understand it this way:  Mechthilde has drawn the conclusion to
> do something (which I'm applauding).  She is following her point of view.
> You are free to not contribute but that magical "we" that is not able
> to find a conclusion does not seem to exist.
>  
>> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and later on
>> everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.
> If you think its a good idea just *do* what you consider a good idea.
> Expecting others to consider your idea good is not very fruitful.
>
> Kind regards
>
>         Andreas.
>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
OK I just found it

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/unsubscribe

good luck anyway

Michael Guck


Am 11.10.19 um 11:03 schrieb Michael Guck:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> how can I get out of this list?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Michael Guck
>
>
> Am 11.10.19 um 10:53 schrieb Andreas Tille:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 09:00:18PM +0200, Michael Guck wrote:
>>> Hi Mechthilde,
>>>
>>> so we come to no conclusion this time
>> I don't understand it this way:  Mechthilde has drawn the conclusion to
>> do something (which I'm applauding).  She is following her point of
>> view.
>> You are free to not contribute but that magical "we" that is not able
>> to find a conclusion does not seem to exist.
>>> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and
>>> later on
>>> everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.
>> If you think its a good idea just *do* what you consider a good idea.
>> Expecting others to consider your idea good is not very fruitful.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>>         Andreas.
>>
>
>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Jens Kutschke, j-lawyer.org
I feel (kind of) irritated and sorry. Sorry mainly because my project is
the subject / trigger for this debate. Not so much sorry because I did
not offend anyone.

I did not insist my project be a part of a potential blend. All I did
was raising awareness that there is some case management software that
is working on Linux that could give users a choice.

At the end of the day, that is the only reason I am subscribed here - I
like the idea of having such a blend that actually provides a value to
end users. Contributors running apart over the slightest technical
debate is something that I have not seen in a community so far. Having
differing opinions is actually something very valuable - getting out of
your own bubbles and understanding other peoples points and ideas.

Aside from that, I actually agree with Michaels take on getting the
basics right and then evolve from this.

Baffled,
Jens



Am 11.10.2019 11:09, schrieb Michael Guck:

> OK I just found it
>
> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/unsubscribe
>
> good luck anyway
>
> Michael Guck
>
>
> Am 11.10.19 um 11:03 schrieb Michael Guck:
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> how can I get out of this list?
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> Michael Guck
>>
>>
>> Am 11.10.19 um 10:53 schrieb Andreas Tille:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 09:00:18PM +0200, Michael Guck wrote:
>>>> Hi Mechthilde,
>>>>
>>>> so we come to no conclusion this time
>>> I don't understand it this way:  Mechthilde has drawn the conclusion
>>> to
>>> do something (which I'm applauding).  She is following her point of
>>> view.
>>> You are free to not contribute but that magical "we" that is not able
>>> to find a conclusion does not seem to exist.
>>>> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and
>>>> later on
>>>> everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.
>>> If you think its a good idea just *do* what you consider a good idea.
>>> Expecting others to consider your idea good is not very fruitful.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>>         Andreas.
>>>
>>
>>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Michael Guck
Hello Jens,

maybe Mechthildes impulse to just build an deb file out of projects was
right.

It will not bring "debian lex" alife but gets something done by using
debian as publishing platform regadless of the circumstances.

I am out here for now.

Maybe I will join again.

best wishes

Michael Guck



Am 11.10.19 um 11:32 schrieb [hidden email]:

> I feel (kind of) irritated and sorry. Sorry mainly because my project
> is the subject / trigger for this debate. Not so much sorry because I
> did not offend anyone.
>
> I did not insist my project be a part of a potential blend. All I did
> was raising awareness that there is some case management software that
> is working on Linux that could give users a choice.
>
> At the end of the day, that is the only reason I am subscribed here -
> I like the idea of having such a blend that actually provides a value
> to end users. Contributors running apart over the slightest technical
> debate is something that I have not seen in a community so far. Having
> differing opinions is actually something very valuable - getting out
> of your own bubbles and understanding other peoples points and ideas.
>
> Aside from that, I actually agree with Michaels take on getting the
> basics right and then evolve from this.
>
> Baffled,
> Jens
>
>
>
> Am 11.10.2019 11:09, schrieb Michael Guck:
>> OK I just found it
>>
>> https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/unsubscribe
>>
>> good luck anyway
>>
>> Michael Guck
>>
>>
>> Am 11.10.19 um 11:03 schrieb Michael Guck:
>>> Hi Andreas,
>>>
>>> how can I get out of this list?
>>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>> Michael Guck
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 11.10.19 um 10:53 schrieb Andreas Tille:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 09:00:18PM +0200, Michael Guck wrote:
>>>>> Hi Mechthilde,
>>>>>
>>>>> so we come to no conclusion this time
>>>> I don't understand it this way:  Mechthilde has drawn the
>>>> conclusion to
>>>> do something (which I'm applauding).  She is following her point of
>>>> view.
>>>> You are free to not contribute but that magical "we" that is not able
>>>> to find a conclusion does not seem to exist.
>>>>> I still think that its a good idea to start with the basics and
>>>>> later on
>>>>> everybody can unsecure his system/blend as he wishes.
>>>> If you think its a good idea just *do* what you consider a good idea.
>>>> Expecting others to consider your idea good is not very fruitful.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>>         Andreas.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

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Re: Reorganisation of www.debian.org: Please provide information about your Blend

Mechtilde Stehmann-2
Hello

Am 11.10.19 um 12:58 schrieb Michael Guck:
> Hello Jens,
>
> maybe Mechthildes impulse to just build an deb file out of projects was
> right.

I want all required software to be available as Debian packages. This is
IMO the base to start a blend.

> It will not bring "debian lex" alife but gets something done by using
> debian as publishing platform regadless of the circumstances.

@ Michael G.: do you find all software you use as packages in Debian?

Kind regards
--
Mechtilde Stehmann
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