Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Joel Rees-3

2014/08/08 18:14 "Yves-Alexis Perez" <[hidden email]>:
>
> [...]
>
> Put it another way, Xfce (and other DEs) have been hurt by the various
> enforced transitions (ConsoleKit,
> hal/devicekit-power/upower/upower-0.99), yes. Combined with the lack of
> resources, that means it lays behind the people who decided those
> transitions.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Yves-Alexis

As a user trying to find to participate more, can I put a huge "+1" on that?

(Lots of things I'd like to help with on XFCE, among other things, but the recent transitions have been eating what time I might have had, plus a bit of work time I can't afford.)

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Joel Rees-3
In reply to this post by Jordi Mallach

2014/08/08 6:58 "Jordi Mallach" <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi Debian,
>
> It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
> desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
> the issue would be revisited before the freeze, around debconf time.
>
> Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME is
> reinstated as the default desktop environment for a number of reasons.

First thought: Since systemd has been chosen as the one true way of the future, it seems only obvious that GNOME should be the default desktop.

> Accessibility: GNOME continues to be the only free desktop environment that
> provides full accessibility coverage, right from login screen. While it’s true
> GNOME 3.0 was lacking in many areas, and GNOME 3.4 (which we shipped in wheezy)
> was just barely acceptable thanks to some last minute GDM fixes, GNOME 3.12
> should have ironed out all of the issues and our non-expert understanding is
> that a11y support is now on par with what GNOME 2.30 from squeeze offered.

There are a number of regular participants on debian-user who have a11y needs. Would it be too much to ask, to ask them whether GNOME meets their needs?

> Downstream health: The number of active members in the team taking care of
> GNOME in Debian is around 5-10 persons, while it is 1-2 in the case of Xfce.
> Being the default desktop draws a lot of attention (and bug reports) that only
> a bigger team might have the resources to handle.

It has been mentioned in the past, but developers work on what they want to work on. That may or may not be related to whether a particular DE is appropriate for general rcommendation.

> Upstream health: While GNOME is still committed to its time-based release
> schedule and ships new versions every 6 months, Xfce upstream is,
> unfortunately, struggling a bit more to keep up with new plumbing technology.
> Only very recently it has regained support to suspend/hibernate via logind, or
> support for Bluez 5.x, for example.

Should consider the reasons for the breakage, as well.

> Community: GNOME is one of the biggest free software projects, and is lucky to
> have created an ecosystem of developers, documenters, translators and users
> that interact regularly in a live social community. Users and developers gather
> in hackfests and big, annual conferences like GUADEC, the Boston Summit, or
> GNOME.Asia. Only KDE has a comparable community, the rest of the free desktop
> projects don’t have the userbase or manpower to sustain communities like this.

With a community that big, would it be unreasonable to ask them to maintain their own distro? Or perhaps their own liveCD? Eh, well, liveSD.

> Localization: Localization is more extensive and complete in GNOME.  Xfce has
> 18 languages above 95% of coverage, and 2 at 100% (excluding English), GNOME
> has 28 languages above 95%, 9 of them being complete (excluding English).

LOL.

No, seriously, is there any meaning to the claim of "complete"?

I've seen a lot of bad Japanese translation, recently, that, if I had more time, I'd file bugs on.

> Documentation: Documentation coverage is extensive in GNOME, with most of the
> core applications providing localized, up to date and complete manuals,
> available in an accessible format via the Help reader.

See above. Documentation and translation have something in common here. Particularly since documentation should be translation from technical language to the more common vernacular.

> Hardware: GNOME 3.12 will be one of the few desktop environments to support
> HiDPI displays, now very common on some laptop models. Lack of support for
> HiDPI means non-technical users will get an unreadable desktop by default, and
> no hints on how to fix that.
>
> Security: GNOME is more secure. There are no processes launched with root
> permissions on the user’s session. All everyday operations (package management,
> disk partitioning and formatting, date/time configuration…) are accomplished
> through PolicyKit wrappers.
>
> Privacy: One of the latest focuses of GNOME development is improving privacy,
> and work is being done to make it easy to run GNOME applications in isolated
> containers, integrate Tor seamlessly in the desktop experience, better disk
> encryption support and other features that should make GNOME a more secure
> desktop environment for end users.
>
> Popularity: One of the metrics discussed by the tasksel change proponents
> mentioned popcon numbers. 8 months after the desktop change, Xfce does not seem
> to have made a dent on install numbers.  The Debian GNOME team doesn’t feel
> popcon’s data is any better than a random online poll though, as it’s an opt-in
> service which the vast majority of users don’t enable.
>
> systemd embracing: One of the reasons to switch to Xfce was that it didn’t
> depend on systemd. But now that systemd is the default, that shouldn’t be a
> problem. Also given ConsoleKit is deprecated and dead upstream, KDE and Xfce
> are switching or are planning to switch to systemd/logind.
>
> In addition to this, moving to Xfce now would mean yet another transition to
> a new desktop (if we consider GNOME 2.x → 3.x a transition, which it is),
> which would mean a new round of adapation for users installing Debian from
> scratch, and only after two years after getting used to the GNOME 3 workflow.
> jessie's GNOME 3.x release should be a lot more polished than what we shipped
> with wheezy, which means many of the rough edges and annoyances people may
> have found when upgrading from squeeze are probably now ironed out.
>
> Many members of the Debian GNOME team feel shipping Xfce by default would
> mean regressing in a few key areas like, as mentioned before, accessibility,
> localisation and documentation of the default set of applications. We are wary
> about the state of some features of the current default with respect
> to power management and bluetooth, for example. These features are driven by,
> and working since day 1, by GNOME 3.12.
>
> Jordi
> --
> Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer     http://www.debian.org/
> [hidden email]     [hidden email]     http://www.sindominio.net/
> GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Joel Rees-3

(Sure wish I could get drivers for this Acer tablet so I could get replace the vendor-constricted Android with a real OS and get software that wouldn't misinterpret what my fingers do on the screen. But, then, I suppose I should go to the trouble of booting up a regular computer for this.)

2014/08/11 7:32 "Joel Rees" <[hidden email]>:
>
> 2014/08/08 6:58 "Jordi Mallach" <[hidden email]>:
>
> >
> > Hi Debian,
> >
> > It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
> > desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
> > the issue would be revisited before the freeze, around debconf time.
> >
> > Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME is
> > reinstated as the default desktop environment for a number of reasons.
>
> First thought: Since systemd has been chosen as the one true way of the future, it seems only obvious that GNOME should be the default desktop.
>
> > Accessibility: GNOME continues to be the only free desktop environment that
> > provides full accessibility coverage, right from login screen. While it’s true
> > GNOME 3.0 was lacking in many areas, and GNOME 3.4 (which we shipped in wheezy)
> > was just barely acceptable thanks to some last minute GDM fixes, GNOME 3.12
> > should have ironed out all of the issues and our non-expert understanding is
> > that a11y support is now on par with what GNOME 2.30 from squeeze offered.
>
> There are a number of regular participants on debian-user who have a11y needs. Would it be too much to ask, to ask them whether GNOME meets their needs?
>
> > Downstream health: The number of active members in the team taking care of
> > GNOME in Debian is around 5-10 persons, while it is 1-2 in the case of Xfce.
> > Being the default desktop draws a lot of attention (and bug reports) that only
> > a bigger team might have the resources to handle.
>
> It has been mentioned in the past, but developers work on what they want to work on. That may or may not be related to whether a particular DE is appropriate for general rcommendation.
>
> > Upstream health: While GNOME is still committed to its time-based release
> > schedule and ships new versions every 6 months, Xfce upstream is,
> > unfortunately, struggling a bit more to keep up with new plumbing technology.
> > Only very recently it has regained support to suspend/hibernate via logind, or
> > support for Bluez 5.x, for example.
>
> Should consider the reasons for the breakage, as well.
>
> > Community: GNOME is one of the biggest free software projects, and is lucky to
> > have created an ecosystem of developers, documenters, translators and users
> > that interact regularly in a live social community. Users and developers gather
> > in hackfests and big, annual conferences like GUADEC, the Boston Summit, or
> > GNOME.Asia. Only KDE has a comparable community, the rest of the free desktop
> > projects don’t have the userbase or manpower to sustain communities like this.
>
> With a community that big, would it be unreasonable to ask them to maintain their own distro? Or perhaps their own liveCD? Eh, well, liveSD.
>
> > Localization: Localization is more extensive and complete in GNOME.  Xfce has
> > 18 languages above 95% of coverage, and 2 at 100% (excluding English), GNOME
> > has 28 languages above 95%, 9 of them being complete (excluding English).
>
> LOL.
>
> No, seriously, is there any meaning to the claim of "complete"?
>
> I've seen a lot of bad Japanese translation, recently, that, if I had more time, I'd file bugs on.
>
> > Documentation: Documentation coverage is extensive in GNOME, with most of the
> > core applications providing localized, up to date and complete manuals,
> > available in an accessible format via the Help reader.
>
> See above. Documentation and translation have something in common here. Particularly since documentation should be translation from technical language to the more common vernacular.
>
> > Hardware: GNOME 3.12 will be one of the few desktop environments to support
> > HiDPI displays, now very common on some laptop models. Lack of support for
> > HiDPI means non-technical users will get an unreadable desktop by default, and
> > no hints on how to fix that.

I'm thinking this sounds like an argument for postponing freeze.

> > Security: GNOME is more secure. There are no processes launched with root
> > permissions on the user’s session. All everyday operations (package management,
> > disk partitioning and formatting, date/time configuration…) are accomplished
> > through PolicyKit wrappers.

With the volume of new code, can such claims be serious?

> > Privacy: One of the latest focuses of GNOME development is improving privacy,
> > and work is being done to make it easy to run GNOME applications in isolated
> > containers, integrate Tor seamlessly in the desktop experience, better disk
> > encryption support and other features that should make GNOME a more secure
> > desktop environment for end users.

TOR has what to do with real privacy?

> > Popularity: One of the metrics discussed by the tasksel change proponents
> > mentioned popcon numbers. 8 months after the desktop change, Xfce does not seem
> > to have made a dent on install numbers.  The Debian GNOME team doesn’t feel
> > popcon’s data is any better than a random online poll though, as it’s an opt-in
> > service which the vast majority of users don’t enable.

Since when has popcon been assumed to give meaningful results? The shortcomings of the approach have been known from the beginning. Nothing has changed that would improve the statistical significance of the numbers.

> > systemd embracing: One of the reasons to switch to Xfce was that it didn’t
> > depend on systemd. But now that systemd is the default, that shouldn’t be a
> > problem. Also given ConsoleKit is deprecated and dead upstream, KDE and Xfce
> > are switching or are planning to switch to systemd/logind.

Isn't this essentially the sum of your thsis

> > In addition to this, moving to Xfce now would mean yet another transition to
> > a new desktop (if we consider GNOME 2.x → 3.x a transition, which it is),
> > which would mean a new round of adapation for users installing Debian from
> > scratch, and only after two years after getting used to the GNOME 3 workflow.
> > jessie's GNOME 3.x release should be a lot more polished than what we shipped
> > with wheezy, which means many of the rough edges and annoyances people may
> > have found when upgrading from squeeze are probably now ironed out.
> >
> > Many members of the Debian GNOME team feel shipping Xfce by default would
> > mean regressing in a few key areas like, as mentioned before, accessibility,
> > localisation and documentation of the default set of applications. We are wary
> > about the state of some features of the current default with respect
> > to power management and bluetooth, for example. These features are driven by,
> > and working since day 1, by GNOME 3.12.
> >
> > Jordi
> > --
> > Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer     http://www.debian.org/
> > [hidden email]     [hidden email]     http://www.sindominio.net/
> > GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Joel Rees-3
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:49 AM, Joel Rees <[hidden email]> wrote:

(Having booted up a real OS, but still using Google's webmail fake MUA. heh.)

> [...]
> 2014/08/11 7:32 "Joel Rees" <[hidden email]>:
>> 2014/08/08 6:58 "Jordi Mallach" <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> [...]
>> > systemd embracing: One of the reasons to switch to Xfce was that it
>> > didn’t
>> > depend on systemd. But now that systemd is the default, that shouldn’t
>> > be a
>> > problem. Also given ConsoleKit is deprecated and dead upstream, KDE and
>> > Xfce
>> > are switching or are planning to switch to systemd/logind.
>
> Isn't this essentially the sum of your thesis

That is, isn't this your thesis, in sum?

>> > In addition to this, moving to Xfce now would mean yet another
>> > transition to
>> > a new desktop (if we consider GNOME 2.x → 3.x a transition, which it
>> > is),
>> > which would mean a new round of adapation for users installing Debian
>> > from
>> > scratch, and only after two years after getting used to the GNOME 3
>> > workflow.
>> > jessie's GNOME 3.x release should be a lot more polished than what we
>> > shipped
>> > with wheezy, which means many of the rough edges and annoyances people
>> > may
>> > have found when upgrading from squeeze are probably now ironed out.

So, we should move, yet again, before any CDs get burned, lest anyone
doubt debian's allegiance to the one-true-and-coming-OS?

(I should have held my tongue on that, I suppose, since these are the
dev lists, and I am making some serious requests below.)

>> > Many members of the Debian GNOME team feel shipping Xfce by default
>> > would
>> > mean regressing in a few key areas like, as mentioned before,
>> > accessibility,
>> > localisation and documentation of the default set of applications. We
>> > are wary
>> > about the state of some features of the current default with respect
>> > to power management and bluetooth, for example. These features are
>> > driven by,
>> > and working since day 1, by GNOME 3.12.
>> >
>> > Jordi
>> > --
>> > Jordi Mallach Pérez  --  Debian developer     http://www.debian.org/
>> > [hidden email]     [hidden email]     http://www.sindominio.net/
>> > GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/

Two years from now, your list of reasons might make sense.

Right now, there has been no time to gather the sort of statistics
needed to support your assertions.

But, and I mean this seriously, since debian has made the move to
systemd, it seems to me that your assertions are superfluous. It makes
no sense not to make Gnome3 the default DE.

That means, I think, that it also makes no sense to have a CD install
image other than netinstall.

It would be nice if the install media made DE options a little more
accessible than is currently the case.

I'm not sure if my memories here are from debian, but it seems to me
that it used to be fairly easy to select, say, a desktop productivity
set of initial packages and then go in and change the DE from Gnome2
to XFCE.

Last time I tried the easy install, I didn't see any way to do that,
and I ended up having to remove Gnome3 and install XFCE after the
first boot.

--
Joel Rees

Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

The Wanderer
In reply to this post by Kees de Jong-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 08/10/2014 02:39 PM, Kees de Jong wrote:

> Why are we discussing CD/DVD sizes? Why not just use an USB
> netinstall? It's then possible to download and install the stuff you
> need, if you don't want to use a lot of bandwidth then choose no
> desktop environment or XFCE/LXDE. But if you can spare some more time
> then you can install GNOME/KDE. Seems like a good deal. And USB
> sticks are cheaper (also easier to reuse) so I don't get the 'hurting
> developing countries' argument.

With netinst, you incur the bandwidth cost at install time, once for
every install.

With a larger install image which includes all the packages needed for a
more comprehensive install (whether CD, DVD or otherwise), you incur the
bandwidth cost up once front, and then never again (until it's time to
update to a new install-image version anyway).

If you're only going to do one install, then yes, the netinst image
probably makes more sense for a bandwidth-limited environment.

But if you're going to do multiple installs, using one of the larger and
more comprehensive prebuilt install images almost certainly makes more
sense than using netinst.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney
Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr, especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE for debian?

If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply because the drivers had been deprecated. Lets not go into the 256/512MB of ram that the CD only computer has and how much gnome or xfce is going to chew up and bring the machine to a crawl as soon you try to do anything and it hits swap.

DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were.
The only argument you have left is bandwidth, and fortunately DVD's can be sent in the post. Also we are probably only talking about a 100MB or 200MB more.

I'd rather a nice debian installer with everything included, rather than trying to 'cut stuff out' just so it 'fits'. There's simply no need for that.

The real issue at hand should not be derailed by "does it work with 1995 technology"

As for the topic, the assumption of "let's switch back to gnome now", how quaint.

Firstly, it should be "Let's choose the default DE for Jessie".

Secondly, why haven't the lxde and kde developers been included on the list for this discussion?
Even with the init choice, the outsiders were given a chance to speak up (E17 anyone?)

Thirdly, and more importantly the state of gnome itself in testing/jessie repositories, let alone sid, even with a larger team, the mismatched package versions, the first movement from 3.8 to 3.12, means it's barely been looked at let alone tested, those that do attempt to test it come into irc regular to complain about it.

So can we not have our DE chosen on the merit of 20 cents, and instead decide which DE is best for technical reasons, usability, accessibility or interface and start customising it pronto? (ie, still need to decide on a default theme)

For reference i do not use XFCE or GNOME as my default DE, i have attempted to use sid and testing in a vm to test gnome3 recently and just gave up, that obviously might have changed in the last few weeks.
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Thomas Weber-17
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
> Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr,
> especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price
> checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of
> CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the
> price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE for
> debian?

Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look
at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel)         5,99 Euro
DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)                    3,99 Euro
That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD.

> DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were.
I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is
in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is
negligible.

        Thomas


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney


On Mon, 11 Aug, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Thomas Weber <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here): http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel) 3,99 Euro That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD.
As you have shown here, it would cost an extra €0.08 to have it on DVD instead of CD.
Also I’ll note for you, that's 86GB for €3.99 or 40GB for €5.99
The cost of a DVD is not some far reaching astronomical price increase, in fact per GB it's cheaper.
Here in the UK I can walk into a poundstore and pick up 4 dvds for a £1. I'm quite sure you can do the same in any $1 dollar, 99cent store. The cd's in that store come in a 5pack for £1. 

DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were.
I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is negligible.

Price is not a valid concern for DVD, in terms of media or drives. Either the CD drive is too old to function or the machine is. (in terms of jessie anyway), you can barely buy second hand CD drives, but DVD drives are a plenty, sure you can buy them NEW for little more than a pack of 50 CD's.

And if it's "machines in the wild with CD drives still" again, we have woody, squeeze and wheezy for them.

I ran woody on my cheap laptop in 2002. it had a DVD drive.

Can we now move on to choosing a DE?

Thanks
Anthony.


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

shirish शिरीष
In reply to this post by Thomas Weber-17
at bottom :-

On 8/11/14, Thomas Weber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
>> Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr,
>> especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price
>> checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of
>> CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is
>> the
>> price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE
>> for
>> debian?
>
> Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look
> at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
> http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
> CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel)         5,99 Euro
> DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)                    3,99 Euro
> That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD.
>
>> DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were.
> I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is
> in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is
> negligible.
>
> Thomas

Hi all,
As an interested user I come from India and at least here there isn't
a difference at all in terms of a CD or DVD media. A single of both
costs Rs. 20/- (with the plastic case and all) and going to some of
the wholesalers we can get it for Rs. 7/- or Rs. 8/-  (in a spindle or
a box) . The price might differ between the two by a Rupee or two
(it's been quite some time since I went to buy blank DVD's) but the
space equation is such that I never buy a CD.

I do remember a distinct conversation where I asked him if he ever got
orders for CD with the vendor replying that mostly he gets order CD's
from villages rather than from city/town itself. Still the ratio was
80 > 20 in favor of DVD's.

I know it's not at all scientific and is probably a strawman argument
but that's the way I see it here. Almost nobody I know within my
circle talks about CD and I do not just work with the elite in the
city.
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Lennart Sorensen
In reply to this post by Thomas Weber-17
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:15:15AM +0200, Thomas Weber wrote:
> Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look
> at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
> http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
> CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel)         5,99 Euro
> DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)                    3,99 Euro
> That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD.

My local computer store has $8.99 for 50 DVD-R and $16.99 for 50 CD-R.

Of course they also have 100 CD-R for $18.88 and 100 DVD-R for $24.88,
so who knows.  Seems the price is pretty similar depending what you buy
and how many.

Of course as for gnome as a default, unless it can have sane defaults
where it behaves as the vast majority of computer users are used to a
desktop working, then I don't think it is a usable desktop.  That means
it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect
to see them, and things behaving as they expect them to behave.
Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than
upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are
used to other operating systems and desktops?

--
Len Sorensen


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Matthias Urlichs-3
Hi,

Lennart Sorensen:
> it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect
> to see them

You mean left vs. right side?

> Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than
> upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are
> used to other operating systems and desktops?
>
People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure
out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter)
target audience.
If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the
let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes.

--
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Jonas Smedegaard
In reply to this post by David Weinehall
Quoting David Weinehall (2014-08-10 22:59:45)

> On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>
>> The issue here really is "how big is it?" rather than "hos many disks
>> [of which kind] does it fit onto?".
>>
>> "unable to fit on a single image" is not only about use of said
>> storage devices for installation, but also an indication more
>> generally of how much data needs to be transfered on average for a
>> usable installation.
>>
>> Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet
>> access.  Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing
>> countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when
>> using it may apply security fixes less often.
>
> In all cases where I'm stuck with expensive (and/or slow) Internet I
> sure as hell pick the netinst image and download the minimum set of
> packages I need, rather than a whole CD image on the offhand chance
> that I might need everything on it (which is exceedingly unlikely).
[remark about actual CD use rather than desktop size measure snipped]

> So, as long as GNOME fits on the first installation CD I see no reason
> not to prefer it over XFCE.

I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather
than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.

(numbers above are made up - just to illustrate that I am talking about
the size of the desktops, not actual concrete CDs or DVDs or Blueray
disks.


 - Jonas

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Jonas Smedegaard
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-11 11:21:14)
> On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet
>> access.  Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing
>> countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when
>> using it may apply security fixes less often.
>
> How poor is poor?

Poor enough that they bother visitors coming from different places in
the World asking them to please consider bring install data "by
sneakernet" (e.g. on CDs but could just as well be floppies or uSD
storage embedded in iPhones - physical media type not important).

I call it "bother" not because I have experienced actually being
bothered by such request, but because I have experienced being treated
like a king in India and Indonesia yet asked that - surprising to me -
requst.


> I've been participating since having a theoretical 64KB/s cable
> connection, which in practice only did 3-5KB/s (provider: BART in
> Rotterdam)! A cd would take about 24 hours to download (net install
> was sometimes unreliable, so I preferred a cd). Having a poor
> connection means you get creative. I shared the cd's I downloaded,
> used rewritable to push the cost down, etc.

How poor was that example of poor?


> I've checked http://explorer.netindex.com/maps which shows the Speed
> test results across the world. According to that site, the minimal
> speed I can see in various African countries is at least 0.75 Mbps.
> Much higher than the speed I was used to.

How expensive is such average speed?  Not measured in dollar, but
measured in something more locally tangible, like "work hours"?


> Always having a slow connection changes means you're tolerance level
> is different. I used to download a cd in 24 hours. Nowadays the same
> takes maybe 35 seconds.

Still you are talking about cost in time.  Few I have met in developing
countries were poor measured in time available.


> I don't get the doom and gloom unless you're more clear.

Please elaborate what is unclear.


 - Jonas

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Joel Rees-3

2014/08/12 1:12 "Jonas Smedegaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> [...]
> Still you are talking about cost in time.  Few I have met in developing
> countries were poor measured in time available.
> [...]

Developed country (Japan). My wife makes me scrimp on everything, so I still have megabit/sec download. Fiber or 10 Mb/s copper would cost me some JPY1000 a month more, up to about 3500/mo. (Roughly JPY100 to USD1.00.)
So, when I download DVDs, I plan on leaving the download going all day.

But I don't download DVDs because the installer will go to the net for the latest anyway, if you let it. Of course, that means upgrading to Jessy is going to be two days of down time.

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Ben Hutchings-3
In reply to this post by Anthony F McInerney
On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 03:20 +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
[...]
> If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get
> kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that
> situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply
> because the drivers had been deprecated. Lets not go into the
> 256/512MB of ram that the CD only computer has and how much gnome or
> xfce is going to chew up and bring the machine to a crawl as soon you
> try to do anything and it hits swap.
[...]

I have a wheezy VM running Xfce comfortably in 256 MB (only a third of
which is used at this moment, excluding caches and buffers).  I doubt
that jessie is going to require vastly more memory.  So I think that
Xfce and CD media are still going to be useful for people who are stuck
with older hardware.

If we agree that it's important to support installation from a single CD
(rather than 2+ CDs or downloads) then Xfce would probably be the right
default DE for that single CD.  I do not support making it the default
in general, though.

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
Humans are not rational beings; they are rationalising beings.

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Lennart Sorensen
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 05:34:04PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> You mean left vs. right side?

Or even showing them at all (certainly last time I bothered to look at
gnome 3 it seemed to think buttons on windows were mostly to be avoided).

> People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure
> out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter)
> target audience.
> If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the
> let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes.

xfce is perfectly useable to most people by default.

All I personally expect from a window manager is:

Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2)
Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window
Have a maximize/restore button
Have a minimize button
Have a close button
(These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I
have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that).

That's it.  I don't need any more than that.  Gnome 3 failed that out
of the box.

It seems Microsoft is willing to accept they fucked up on windwos
8 and are backing down and restoring what people really want in the
next version.  I wonder if the gnome UI designers will ever be willing
to admit they screwed up and back down.

Adding new idea is fine, but not at the expense of existing features
and behaviour.  You have to let people continue to use things until they
get used to the new things if they ever do.  You can't just force people
to switch the way they work.

--
Len Sorensen


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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

David Weinehall
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather
> than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.

Yes, but if you netinst you can *pick* your desktop, it's not like you
have to pick the default.  Do a minimal install, then use tasksel
to select XFCE (or just x + a window manager + the application you
actually need).

The CD images are fixed size.  They will fill out a CD-size
(or a DVD, if they are DVD-images).  Netinst images can obviously
be optimized for size, but the netinst images do not contain the
desktop environment, so whichever desktop is default is a totally
moot question in that scenario.

Summary:

* If you download you can pick the smallest option possible;
  thus the default desktop is irrelevant -- people with plenty
  of bandwidth will probably go with the default, but if you know
  that your connectivity is expensive you'll go for something small
  (possibly forgoing the tasks system altogether)

* If you use ready-made CD/DVD images they'll be fixed size no matter
  what.  If you sneaker-net them you definitely want them to be full,
  not half-full.


Regards: David
--
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//  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/    (/   Beautiful hoar-frost       (/


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

David Weinehall
In reply to this post by Lennart Sorensen
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:35:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> All I personally expect from a window manager is:
>
> Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2)

Available in GNOME 3.

> Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window

Available in GNOME 3.

> Have a maximize/restore button

Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
using gnome-tweak-tool.

> Have a minimize button

Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
using gnome-tweak-tool.

> Have a close button

Available in GNOME 3.

> (These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I
> have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that).

Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.

So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
expect from a window manager.


Kind regards, David
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Lennart Sorensen
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> Available in GNOME 3.
>
> Available in GNOME 3.
>
> Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> using gnome-tweak-tool.

I shouldn't have to know that.  And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared
in sid, it wasn't available.

> Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> using gnome-tweak-tool.

I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to the other window I want.

> Available in GNOME 3.
>
> Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.
>
> So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
> expect from a window manager.

Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to
configure things was highly unpleasant too.  It made windows 8 seem sane.

I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time
shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I
don't think gnome3 by default does that.  It can be tweaked to do so now
(I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how
to do that.  The defaults are bad.

--
Len Sorensen


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney
In reply to this post by Ben Hutchings-3
How do you measure memory? Free?
Could you quite possibly post the output of free and whatever else you measure with? (the full output)
For reference against jessie, i'm installing an up to date jessie right now...

Thanks
Anthony (bofh80) 

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