Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

andreimpopescu
On Lu, 11 aug 14, 19:38:47, David Weinehall wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather
> > than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.
>
> Yes, but if you netinst you can *pick* your desktop, it's not like you
> have to pick the default.  Do a minimal install, then use tasksel
> to select XFCE (or just x + a window manager + the application you
> actually need).

Even the netinst has a default. Besides your method below it's also
possible to change it using the boot menu, which many will miss or be
afraid to try (it's under "Advanced options"), so will end up with
whatever Debian chooses as default.

So the default matters also for the netinst, unless it's made easier to
change from the installation process itself.

Probably easiest would be to just get rid of "Mail server", "Web
server", "Print server" (CUPS will get pulled anyway as dependency of
most if not all major DEs), etc. and instead display a list of Desktop
Environments to choose from.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

David Weinehall
In reply to this post by Lennart Sorensen
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:47:53PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> > Available in GNOME 3.
> >
> > Available in GNOME 3.
> >
> > Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> > using gnome-tweak-tool.
>
> I shouldn't have to know that.  And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared
> in sid, it wasn't available.
>
> > Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> > using gnome-tweak-tool.
>
> I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to the other window I want.
>
> > Available in GNOME 3.
> >
> > Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.
> >
> > So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
> > expect from a window manager.
>
> Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to
> configure things was highly unpleasant too.  It made windows 8 seem sane.
>
> I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time
> shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I
> don't think gnome3 by default does that.  It can be tweaked to do so now
> (I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how
> to do that.  The defaults are bad.

Well, if there's a consensus that the minimise/maximise
buttons are needed (I always enable them, so I'd vote yes!), then
I'm sure that the Debian GNOME team will be happy to enable those
options by default.


Regards: David
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney
XFCE:
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        506756     362468     144288       6568      22756     179264
-/+ buffers/cache:     160448     346308
Swap:       392188          0     392188

GNOME:
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        506756     500360       6396       1948        840      37724
-/+ buffers/cache:     461796      44960
Swap:       392188      66672     325516

LXDE:
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        506756     316504     190252       8500      18920     149812
-/+ buffers/cache:     147772     358984
Swap:       392188          0     392188

KDE:
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        506756     499724       7032       6772      10516     109760
-/+ buffers/cache:     379448     127308
Swap:       392188      21632     370556

As default using the latest mini.iso with  mirror/udeb/suite=sid and using the 'alternate desktop menu'
booted, logged in, loaded a terminal, here you go. notice the swap usage. virtualbox vm 512MB
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Kees de Jong-2
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your browser use? My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB. My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough.

If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority. And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) then I would say that logic chooses GNOME. Also because of a ton of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd, documentation, dedicated maintainers, accessibility, etc.
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney



On 12 August 2014 01:03, Kees de Jong <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's?
I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar to gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm posting it as a correction to my statement.

I also just test installed all 4 DE's and am happy to run any further tests required to reach a consensus.
  
How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly.
Linux+Java. Needs memory, surprise?
 
In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS.
It's Linux. It has a web browser. A modem. A wireless connection. Bluetooth. GPS. Music Player, Photo viewer, wait this is sounding familiar.
 
How much RAM does your browser use?
Lots, which is why i prefer my DE not to eat it all.

My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB 
My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB.
Ouch

Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough.
free
                                    total            used             free      shared    buffers     cached
Mem:                    12332856     12164516        168340     129196     100248    3989512
-/+ buffers/cache:                        8074756      4258100
Swap:                    3211260          129088      3082172
Maybe for you. (and my DE uses less than lxde and xfce, but with more options and jazz+bugs). But that's me, i might be able to fit my own memory, most people will not, they have to pay for that, and most would have to remove memory to fit  more memory, hence making the cost more than you imagined.

If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority.
Ahh good you have statistics for that. Please link them, or quote and cite sources.

And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) then I would say that logic chooses GNOME.
Some people like the 'basic 3d acceleration' for other things, so not only do you want me to sacrifice my RAM to all powerful DE, but also my GPU? How kind of you ;) . Also as the memory usage shows, a pi won't be doing much more than starting gnome and going, oh look it's gnome. 
Also because of a ton of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd, documentation, dedicated maintainers, accessibility, etc.
OK that's a gnome+1 then. :)
TBH i'd rather hear what you like about gnome3, the workflow or anything else that makes it 'stand out' from other DE's, or rather, worth a large percentage of ram, especially if can surpass 1GB. 
Thanks for the info.
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

wookey-4
In reply to this post by Anthony F McInerney
+++ Anthony F McInerney [2014-08-12 00:02 +0100]:

>    XFCE:
>
>                 total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
>    Mem:        506756     362468     144288       6568      22756     179264
>    -/+ buffers/cache:     160448     346308
>    Swap:       392188          0     392188
>
>    GNOME:
>
>                 total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
>    Mem:        506756     500360       6396       1948        840      37724
>    -/+ buffers/cache:     461796      44960
>    Swap:       392188      66672     325516
>
>    LXDE:
>
>                 total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
>    Mem:        506756     316504     190252       8500      18920     149812
>    -/+ buffers/cache:     147772     358984
>    Swap:       392188          0     392188
>
>    KDE:
>
>                 total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
>    Mem:        506756     499724       7032       6772      10516     109760
>    -/+ buffers/cache:     379448     127308
>    Swap:       392188      21632     370556

Thanks for this, interesting.

Could you do MATE too please?


Wookey
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Josselin Mouette
In reply to this post by Anthony F McInerney
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 03:03 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit :
> I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar
> to gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm
> posting it as a correction to my statement.

You’re comparing apples and oranges. These memory usage comparisons are
only useful at feature parity - which doesn’t exist, since different
environments have different paradigms and different feature sets.

>         How much RAM does your browser use?
> Lots, which is why i prefer my DE not to eat it all.

When the browser uses 1 GB while GNOME (including evolution and many
other running applications) uses half of that, I don’t think you need to
look for memory savings in the desktop. You need to buy more RAM and
that’s all, because browsers won’t suddenly stop needing their gigabyte.

>         If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs
>         to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the
>         installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a
>         minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority.
> Ahh good you have statistics for that. Please link them, or quote and
> cite sources.

I just had a look at an online hardware store.
Out of their 682 laptops and 332 desktops:
      * 1 model has 1 GiB
      * 48 models have 2 GiB
      * 470 models have 4 GiB
      * 495 have 6 GiB or more

Which means 0,1% of the machines you can buy are not able to run a web
browser anyway, < 5% are more than enough for a full-fledged GNOME+web
browser, and all the rest are very comfortable with anything you can run
under Linux.

> Some people like the 'basic 3d acceleration' for other things, so not
> only do you want me to sacrifice my RAM to all powerful DE, but also
> my GPU? How kind of you ;)

We happen at work to have users with very important needs of 3D
resources, so one of my colleagues conducted some performance tests with
and without a compositor (the compositor being GNOME 3).

It turns out that with a recent adapter, 3D applications are running a
small bit faster under GNOME, and that’s probably because it saves your
graphics card the pain to switch from 2D to 3D contexts.
--
 .''`.        Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney
In reply to this post by wookey-4



On 12 August 2014 09:51, Wookey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could you do MATE too please?

MATE: (with mate-desktop-environment-extras) 
free ^[[C total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 397480 109276 7096 58820 166076 -/+ buffers/cache: 172584 334172 
Swap: 392188 0 392188

The ctrl characters came with it apparently.
 And as an extra, Gnome Classical:
free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 498240 8516 2452 5972 71360 -/+ buffers/cache: 420908 85848 Swap: 392188 16292 375896

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney
In reply to this post by Josselin Mouette
We happen at work to have users with very important needs of 3D
resources, so one of my colleagues conducted some performance tests with
and without a compositor (the compositor being GNOME 3).

It turns out that with a recent adapter, 3D applications are running a
small bit faster under GNOME, and that’s probably because it saves your
graphics card the pain to switch from 2D to 3D contexts.

Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed)

Gnome:
glxgears 1267 frames in 5.0 seconds = 253.150 FPS 1197 frames in 5.0 seconds = 239.372 FPS 1174 frames in 5.0 seconds = 234.753 FPS 1142 frames in 5.0 seconds = 228.005 FPS 1201 frames in 5.0 seconds = 239.898 FPS 1217 frames in 5.0 seconds = 243.075 FPS 
1194 frames in 5.0 seconds = 238.475 FPS
Gnome-Classic:
glxgears
1150 frames in 5.0 seconds = 229.772 FPS
1267 frames in 5.0 seconds = 253.212 FPS
1240 frames in 5.0 seconds = 247.875 FPS
1272 frames in 5.0 seconds = 254.374 FPS
1314 frames in 5.0 seconds = 262.673 FPS
1279 frames in 5.0 seconds = 255.684 FPS
XFCE:
glxgears
2110 frames in 5.0 seconds = 421.982 FPS
2290 frames in 5.0 seconds = 457.800 FPS
2241 frames in 5.0 seconds = 448.046 FPS
2279 frames in 5.0 seconds = 455.636 FPS
2191 frames in 5.0 seconds = 438.094 FPS
2246 frames in 5.0 seconds = 449.114 FPS
2218 frames in 5.0 seconds = 443.590 FPS

Please note xfce was installed on the same vm, that gnome / gnome-classic was on. It was therefore using much more memory, (it seems GDM + other gnome services are causing memory use, i will be testing that shortly). And here i will make a comparison. ahahahaha. That was it. Moving on.

;)


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Josselin Mouette
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 13:12 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit :
> Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed)

Glxgears is not a relevant 3D benchmark.

But the funniest thing is that you did this test without any 3D
acceleration, which is not representative at all of most real-world
computers.

Thanks for making the point that with llvmpipe, GNOME is perfectly
usable on a machine without 3D.
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`. `'
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Anthony F McInerney
I enjoy the way you keep ignoring the relevant points, memory usage and performance regressions. And the way you benchmarked gnome against gnome. How about warsaw on xfce on the same hardware or your benchmarks pretty much show nothing except that your 'slight performance increase when using gnome-shell' is pure fabrication.



On 12 August 2014 13:20, Josselin Mouette <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 13:12 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit :
> Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed)

Glxgears is not a relevant 3D benchmark.

But the funniest thing is that you did this test without any 3D
acceleration, which is not representative at all of most real-world
computers.

Thanks for making the point that with llvmpipe, GNOME is perfectly
usable on a machine without 3D.
--
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: :' :
`. `'
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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

Ian Jackson-2
In reply to this post by Jordi Mallach
Jordi Mallach writes ("Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop"):
> It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
> desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
> the issue would be revisited before the freeze, around debconf time.

Fascinating as this discussion is, I think it is at risk of becoming
too much of a time sink.  I think that it would be useful to have some
authoritative guidance from those in Debian who are responsible for
this decision.  AFAICT that is the tasksel maintainers.

So I would appreciate it if the tasksel maintainers would let us know:

Do you intend to review (or are you reviewing) the decision taken in
July 2012 [1] ?  If so, is this discussion here on -devel useful ?  If
it is useful, what questions should we be focusing on ?

Ian.

[1] http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commit;h=2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08


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