Supported Hardware ?

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Supported Hardware ?

Antoine Durand
I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not

MPC8641D
T1042
T2081

Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ?

Thank You Very Much,

--
Antoine


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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
Hi,

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote:

> after reading the Supported Hardware doc
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048
> I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not

That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me...
Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac?

> MPC8641D

I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of
the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal
32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian.

> T1042
> T2081

These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but
*not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the
kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able
to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that
combination is actually supported.

The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm
correct.

> Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ?
> Thank You Very Much,

Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong.

Cheers,
--
Charlie

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 02:52:47PM +0200, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote:
>
> > after reading the Supported Hardware doc
> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048
> > I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not
>
> That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me...
> Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac?
>
> > MPC8641D
>
> I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of
> the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal
> 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian.
>
> > T1042
> > T2081
>
> These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but
> *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the
> kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able
> to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that
> combination is actually supported.

Running powerpc with the 64bit kernel is probably the best bet for those.

At least the 6500 is supposed to be able to run little endian as far as
I know, but I don't think it can run ppc64el.  The altivec part is big
endian only though.

> The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm
> correct.
>
> > Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ?
> > Thank You Very Much,
>
> Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong.

I think it was pretty good.

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Konstantinos Margaritis-6
Στις 24-10-2016, ημέρα Δευ, και ώρα 09:45 -0400, ο/η Lennart Sorensen
έγραψε:
> Running powerpc with the 64bit kernel is probably the best bet for
> those.
>
> At least the 6500 is supposed to be able to run little endian as far
> as
> I know, but I don't think it can run ppc64el.  The altivec part is
> big
> endian only though.

It cannot run ppc64el, that one includes VSX in the ABI by default,
which 6500 lacks. Also, its altivec part )saw it as Altivec 2
somewhere) by FSL (with extra instructions), is also different than
plain altivec supported by other IBM cpus. So, code tuned for 6500's
altivec unit won't even run on big-endian IBM cpus. Good job,
Freescale.

Konstantinos

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Christian Zigotzky
In reply to this post by Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
Hi All,

A-EON Technology has released some new PowerPC computers. Debian PPC
works in these computers.

AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5020 CPU 2GHz, 64-bit e5500 dual-core PowerPC
SoC)

Links:
http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/133/amigaone-x5000
http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-1.pdf
http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-3.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/AEonTechnologyLtd/photos/a.461608890516168.110788.447768335233557/1359104280766620/?type=3&theater
http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=AmigaONE_X5000


AmigaOne X1000 (P.A. Semi PA6T-1682M CPU 1.8GHz, 64-bit dual-core
PowerPC SoC)

Links:
http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/35/amigaone-x1000
http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000
http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-5.pdf
http://www.supertuxkart-amiga.de/amiga/x1000.html
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=35


In development:

AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5040 CPU 2.2GHz, 64-bit e5500 quad-core
PowerPC SoC)

AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core
PowerPC SoC)

Links:
http://a-eon.biz/news/News_Release_A1222.pdf
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case.jpg
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case2.jpg
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Tabor_Booting.jpg
http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/my-a1222-has-arrived.html
http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/debian-linux-on-amigaone-a1222.html
http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/new-case-for-amigaone-a1222.html
http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/classic-amiga-emulation-on-amigaone.html
http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/07/amigaone-a1222-debian-9-build.html


AmigaOne Linux PPC screenshots and some information:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/115515624056477014971


We are a very active Linux PPC community with some new PowerPC
computers. ;-)

Cheers,

Christian

On 10/24/16 2:52 PM, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote:
>
>> after reading the Supported Hardware doc
>> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048
>> I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not
> That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me...
> Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac?
>
>> MPC8641D
> I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of
> the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal
> 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian.
>
>> T1042
>> T2081
> These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but
> *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the
> kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able
> to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that
> combination is actually supported.
>
> The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm
> correct.
>
>> Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ?
>> Thank You Very Much,
> Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Charlie
>
>

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Antoine Durand
In reply to this post by Konstantinos Margaritis-6
Ok, so :

 -  powerpc port for MPC8641D (e600) is ok
 -  maybe powerpc too for T1042 (e5500) and T2081 (e6500) but with a 64 bits kernel,
    not ppc64el (they may run little endian but they don't have VSX nor altivec, or only big endian altivec)

 Thank you,I think I got it.




2016-10-24 15:56 GMT+02:00 Konstantinos Margaritis <[hidden email]>:
Στις 24-10-2016, ημέρα Δευ, και ώρα 09:45 -0400, ο/η Lennart Sorensen
έγραψε:
> Running powerpc with the 64bit kernel is probably the best bet for
> those.
>
> At least the 6500 is supposed to be able to run little endian as far
> as
> I know, but I don't think it can run ppc64el.  The altivec part is
> big
> endian only though.

It cannot run ppc64el, that one includes VSX in the ABI by default,
which 6500 lacks. Also, its altivec part )saw it as Altivec 2
somewhere) by FSL (with extra instructions), is also different than
plain altivec supported by other IBM cpus. So, code tuned for 6500's
altivec unit won't even run on big-endian IBM cpus. Good job,
Freescale.

Konstantinos

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Christian Zigotzky
In reply to this post by Christian Zigotzky
typo. :-(

I meant: Debian PPC works on these computers.

-- Christian

On 10/24/16 3:51 PM, Christian Zigotzky wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> A-EON Technology has released some new PowerPC computers. Debian PPC
> works in these computers.
>
> AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5020 CPU 2GHz, 64-bit e5500 dual-core
> PowerPC SoC)
>
> Links:
> http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/133/amigaone-x5000
> http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-1.pdf
> http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-3.pdf
> https://www.facebook.com/AEonTechnologyLtd/photos/a.461608890516168.110788.447768335233557/1359104280766620/?type=3&theater 
>
> http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=AmigaONE_X5000
>
>
> AmigaOne X1000 (P.A. Semi PA6T-1682M CPU 1.8GHz, 64-bit dual-core
> PowerPC SoC)
>
> Links:
> http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/35/amigaone-x1000
> http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000
> http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-5.pdf
> http://www.supertuxkart-amiga.de/amiga/x1000.html
> http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=35
>
>
> In development:
>
> AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5040 CPU 2.2GHz, 64-bit e5500 quad-core
> PowerPC SoC)
>
> AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core
> PowerPC SoC)
>
> Links:
> http://a-eon.biz/news/News_Release_A1222.pdf
> http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case.jpg
> http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case2.jpg
> http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Tabor_Booting.jpg
> http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/my-a1222-has-arrived.html
> http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/debian-linux-on-amigaone-a1222.html
> http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/new-case-for-amigaone-a1222.html
> http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/classic-amiga-emulation-on-amigaone.html 
>
> http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/07/amigaone-a1222-debian-9-build.html
>
>
> AmigaOne Linux PPC screenshots and some information:
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/115515624056477014971
>
>
> We are a very active Linux PPC community with some new PowerPC
> computers. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christian
>
> On 10/24/16 2:52 PM, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote:
>>
>>> after reading the Supported Hardware doc
>>> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048 
>>>
>>> I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus
>>> are supported or not
>> That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me...
>> Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac?
>>
>>> MPC8641D
>> I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of
>> the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal
>> 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian.
>>
>>> T1042
>>> T2081
>> These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but
>> *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the
>> kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be
>> able
>> to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that
>> combination is actually supported.
>>
>> The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm
>> correct.
>>
>>> Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ?
>>> Thank You Very Much,
>> Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was
>> wrong.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> --
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
In reply to this post by Christian Zigotzky
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 03:51:01PM +0200, Christian Zigotzky wrote:

> A-EON Technology has released some new PowerPC computers. Debian PPC works
> in these computers.
>
> AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5020 CPU 2GHz, 64-bit e5500 dual-core PowerPC
> SoC)
>
> Links:
> http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/133/amigaone-x5000
> http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-1.pdf
> http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-3.pdf
> https://www.facebook.com/AEonTechnologyLtd/photos/a.461608890516168.110788.447768335233557/1359104280766620/?type=3&theater
> http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=AmigaONE_X5000
>
>
> AmigaOne X1000 (P.A. Semi PA6T-1682M CPU 1.8GHz, 64-bit dual-core PowerPC
> SoC)
>
> Links:
> http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/35/amigaone-x1000
> http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000
> http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-5.pdf
> http://www.supertuxkart-amiga.de/amiga/x1000.html
> http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=35
>
>
> In development:
>
> AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5040 CPU 2.2GHz, 64-bit e5500 quad-core PowerPC
> SoC)
>
> AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core
> PowerPC SoC)

That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood
the e500v2.  e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc
designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal
powerpc FPUs.

Whyever would they be playing with that chip?  I would expect them to
hit software compatibility problems.

I suppose since AmigaOS never really did worry about FPU (most Amigas
never had one), a powerpc build that doesn't use the FPU much would
run on either, and they could even use math libraries (which I seem to
recall AmigaOS always did anyhow) to hide the difference in architecture
of the hardware.

The only way I see they could be running Debian on that board, is with
a custom built kernel with MATH_EMULATION enabled.  That might be what
they have done.  I do see one of the blog pages running powerpcspe on
it instead, which makes more sense.

But at least you can run powerpc on the X1000 and X5000, even if the
A1222 can without a custom kernel and a performance hit on FPU code.

Too bad in the past at least they cost way more than I was willing to pay.

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
Hi,

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood
> the e500v2.  e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc
> designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal
> powerpc FPUs.

That is indeed the case.

> Whyever would they be playing with that chip?

That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been asking for a while.

> I would expect them to hit software compatibility problems.

That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been telling for a while.
:)

> I suppose since AmigaOS never really did worry about FPU (most Amigas
> never had one), a powerpc build that doesn't use the FPU much would
> run on either, and they could even use math libraries (which I seem to
> recall AmigaOS always did anyhow) to hide the difference in architecture
> of the hardware.

That doesn't apply to Amiga PowerPC software. All Amiga PowerPC systems
and expansion cards from the very early days had a full standard PPC FPU.
(We are talking about almost two decades of compatibility in this case.)

So this board will be an exception in every possible sense, and either
incompatible with existing software base, or running them with a huge
penalty hit. Heck, almost all performance-intensive PPC software is full
with hand-optimized stuff like memcopy with FPU, and so on, to squeeze
out all bits of performance from the previous low-end boards which were
the only ones available...

> The only way I see they could be running Debian on that board, is with
> a custom built kernel with MATH_EMULATION enabled.  That might be what
> they have done.  I do see one of the blog pages running powerpcspe on
> it instead, which makes more sense.

Yes, the A1222 is running powerpcspe, although some ran the normal powerpc
kernel as well with math emu, but it's "not recommended", AFAIK.

For AmigaOS, where most of the software, esp. legacy ones only exist in
binary distributions, they always make an analogy with the "software
supported" FPU of the 68040 and 68060 CPUs (in short for those unfamiliar:
those CPUs never implemented the full 68881 FPU instruction set, mainly
trigonometry-related instructions were missing, and they were supported by
a software library provided by Motorola for user space apps), meaning that
because that was working reasonably well, this should be working fine too
in the end.

Obviously anyone with that reasoning doesn't get the depth of the problem
in this case.

> But at least you can run powerpc on the X1000 and X5000, even if the
> A1222 can without a custom kernel and a performance hit on FPU code.

I'd say a "performance hit" is quite an understatement, given the existing
software base. But we'll see. At least not many of their betatesters is
so willing to post benchmarks, which is always an answer to many
questions...

> Too bad in the past at least they cost way more than I was willing to pay.

Yeah, same here.

Charlie

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 09:45:29PM +0200, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:
> That is indeed the case.
>
> That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been asking for a while.
>
> That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been telling for a while.
> :)

Oh good, everyone seems to agree then.

> That doesn't apply to Amiga PowerPC software. All Amiga PowerPC systems
> and expansion cards from the very early days had a full standard PPC FPU.
> (We are talking about almost two decades of compatibility in this case.)

Hmm, that does make sense.  OK, this board should just die and go away
then. :)

I only have an over equipped A500, so no ppc amiga for me so far.

> So this board will be an exception in every possible sense, and either
> incompatible with existing software base, or running them with a huge
> penalty hit. Heck, almost all performance-intensive PPC software is full
> with hand-optimized stuff like memcopy with FPU, and so on, to squeeze
> out all bits of performance from the previous low-end boards which were
> the only ones available...
>
> Yes, the A1222 is running powerpcspe, although some ran the normal powerpc
> kernel as well with math emu, but it's "not recommended", AFAIK.

Certainly it doesn't look like linux distributions for powerpc tend to
ship with MATH_EMULATION enabled in their kernels.  So to claim the board
is compatible with standard linux distributions for powerpc is false.

> For AmigaOS, where most of the software, esp. legacy ones only exist in
> binary distributions, they always make an analogy with the "software
> supported" FPU of the 68040 and 68060 CPUs (in short for those unfamiliar:
> those CPUs never implemented the full 68881 FPU instruction set, mainly
> trigonometry-related instructions were missing, and they were supported by
> a software library provided by Motorola for user space apps), meaning that
> because that was working reasonably well, this should be working fine too
> in the end.
>
> Obviously anyone with that reasoning doesn't get the depth of the problem
> in this case.

Yes the 68k programs used the libraries because most hardware didn't
have an FPU so the libraries were handy.  It makes sense for PPC code
to expect an FPU.

> I'd say a "performance hit" is quite an understatement, given the existing
> software base. But we'll see. At least not many of their betatesters is
> so willing to post benchmarks, which is always an answer to many
> questions...

I remember the difference between arm and armel and then armhf.
Emulation of hardware sucks when you trap, and using libraries when you
could use hardware directly also sucks (but not as much).

> Yeah, same here.

I wonder if they will sell any.

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Didier Kryn
In reply to this post by Lennart Sorensen
Le 25/10/2016 06:19, Lennart Sorensen a écrit :

> That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood
> the e500v2.  e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc
> designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal
> powerpc FPUs.
>
> Whyever would they be playing with that chip?  I would expect them to
> hit software compatibility problems.
>
> I suppose since AmigaOS never really did worry about FPU (most Amigas
> never had one), a powerpc build that doesn't use the FPU much would
> run on either, and they could even use math libraries (which I seem to
> recall AmigaOS always did anyhow) to hide the difference in architecture
> of the hardware.
>
> The only way I see they could be running Debian on that board, is with
> a custom built kernel with MATH_EMULATION enabled.  That might be what
> they have done.  I do see one of the blog pages running powerpcspe on
> it instead, which makes more sense.

     Hey.

     This is something I've been testing for years on SBCs with
Freescale MPC8540 and MPC8548E.

     MPC8540 (e500v1): the kernel must be compiled with -mcpu=8540 (with
math emul of course); compiled for generic powerpc, even with math emul,
it doesn't run. Then Debian for Powerpc runs OK. Means the illegal FP
instructions which are trapped by kernel math emulation are the generic
ppc FP instructions, not the e500v2. Those have been running in
production for years.

     MPC8548E (e500v2): compiling the kernel is no problem, but of
course Debian for Powerpc doesn't work, and math emul is impossible. The
only way is the powerpcspe port. Didn't exist when I needed it and I
gave up.

     Didier

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Erik Brangs
In reply to this post by Lennart Sorensen
Hi,

On 24.10.2016 21:19, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 03:51:01PM +0200, Christian Zigotzky wrote:
>> In development:
>> [...]
>> AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core
>> PowerPC SoC)
>
> That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood
> the e500v2.  e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc
> designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal
> powerpc FPUs.
>
> Whyever would they be playing with that chip?  I would expect them to
> hit software compatibility problems.

I would be interested in a 32-bit multi-core PPC machine that is "desktop-ish" and can run Debian powerpc (i.e. not powerpcspe). Does anyone happen to know any machines that fit these requirements? The only thing I could find were old Macs. From what I could gather from reading this list, it seems that there a quite a few problems with those. Also, I'd prefer something newer, if possible.


Kind regards,

Erik Brangs

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 02:16:54PM +0200, Erik Brangs wrote:
> I would be interested in a 32-bit multi-core PPC machine that is "desktop-ish" and can run Debian powerpc (i.e. not powerpcspe). Does anyone happen to know any machines that fit these requirements? The only thing I could find were old Macs. From what I could gather from reading this list, it seems that there a quite a few problems with those. Also, I'd prefer something newer, if possible.

Well, there is the Amiga X1000, which is a dual core, and runs about $3000
(ouch).

There is the Amiga X5000 that is probably coming at some point.

There is the talos workstation under development, with a power8 (so
actually pretty new stuff) which appears to be about $4000 (for the board,
CPU and RAM are extra), assuming they get it made.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/raptor-computing-systems/talos-secure-workstation
If they make these, they will be very impressive I think, but not cheap.

There are probably a few more options (freescale quad core reference
boards maybe?)

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:33:51PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 02:16:54PM +0200, Erik Brangs wrote:
> > I would be interested in a 32-bit multi-core PPC machine that is "desktop-ish" and can run Debian powerpc (i.e. not powerpcspe). Does anyone happen to know any machines that fit these requirements? The only thing I could find were old Macs. From what I could gather from reading this list, it seems that there a quite a few problems with those. Also, I'd prefer something newer, if possible.
>
> Well, there is the Amiga X1000, which is a dual core, and runs about $3000
> (ouch).
>
> There is the Amiga X5000 that is probably coming at some point.
>
> There is the talos workstation under development, with a power8 (so
> actually pretty new stuff) which appears to be about $4000 (for the board,
> CPU and RAM are extra), assuming they get it made.
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/raptor-computing-systems/talos-secure-workstation
> If they make these, they will be very impressive I think, but not cheap.
>
> There are probably a few more options (freescale quad core reference
> boards maybe?)

There is a reference board for the T2080 for example which appears to
be $1500, and has quad core T2080 with two threads per core.

Now does it run debian yet, or is parts needed to be added to the kernel,
I don't know.  I haven't used that one.  It also doesn't have graphics
as far as I can tell, and does not appear to have enough PCIe to add a
video card either.  I guess that's the problem with a lot of the
embedded chips.

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Erik Brangs
Hi,

On 25.10.2016 18:48, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:33:51PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> Well, there is the Amiga X1000, which is a dual core, and runs about $3000
>> (ouch).
>>
>> There is the Amiga X5000 that is probably coming at some point.
>>
>> There is the talos workstation under development, with a power8 (so
>> actually pretty new stuff) which appears to be about $4000 (for the board,
>> CPU and RAM are extra), assuming they get it made.
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/raptor-computing-systems/talos-secure-workstation
>> If they make these, they will be very impressive I think, but not cheap.
>>
>> There are probably a few more options (freescale quad core reference
>> boards maybe?)
>
> There is a reference board for the T2080 for example which appears to
> be $1500, and has quad core T2080 with two threads per core.
>
> Now does it run debian yet, or is parts needed to be added to the kernel,
> I don't know.  I haven't used that one.  It also doesn't have graphics
> as far as I can tell, and does not appear to have enough PCIe to add a
> video card either.  I guess that's the problem with a lot of the
> embedded chips.
>
Thanks for the hints, but those machines use 64-bit processors or 32-bit processors with SPE. I would need a 32-bit PPC with FPU, preferably with multiple cores. The projects that I'm interested in are related to code generation so the hardware details are important to me. I wouldn't need graphics but I'd need networking and enough memory and disk space to do builds. For example, the machine would need to be capable of building something like GCC.

I can test on PPC 64-bit using the GCC compile farm which provides access to shared machines for free software developers. They have IBM POWER7 and POWER8 server class machines (i.e. 64-bit Big Endian and 64-bit Little Endian).


Kind regards,

Erik Brangs

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
Hi,

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016, Erik Brangs wrote:

> Thanks for the hints, but those machines use 64-bit processors or 32-bit
> processors with SPE. I would need a 32-bit PPC with FPU, preferably with
> multiple cores. The projects that I'm interested in are related to code
> generation so the hardware details are important to me.

64bit PPCs should be compatible with 32bit user space with most operating
systems. So unless you specifically target kernel space and MMU code, you
shouldn't notice much difference.

But yeah, it's a problem. Not many multicore 32bit PPCs exist in the first
place, and even less has readily available boards with them on the market,

Charlie

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
In reply to this post by Erik Brangs
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 08:08:29PM +0200, Erik Brangs wrote:
> Thanks for the hints, but those machines use 64-bit processors or 32-bit processors with SPE. I would need a 32-bit PPC with FPU, preferably with multiple cores. The projects that I'm interested in are related to code generation so the hardware details are important to me. I wouldn't need graphics but I'd need networking and enough memory and disk space to do builds. For example, the machine would need to be capable of building something like GCC.

64 bit CPU is fine running 32 bit userspace.  I have run IBM power6
and power7 machines with Debian powerpc, with 64bit kernel and 32 bit
userspace.  Works great.  Used it as a build machine for 32 bit powerpc
devices.

> I can test on PPC 64-bit using the GCC compile farm which provides access to shared machines for free software developers. They have IBM POWER7 and POWER8 server class machines (i.e. 64-bit Big Endian and 64-bit Little Endian).

A 32bit chroot of debian on a 64bit powerpc works fine.

linux32 works on powerpc too to make it look like a smaller cpu.

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
In reply to this post by Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 08:32:23PM +0200, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:
> 64bit PPCs should be compatible with 32bit user space with most operating
> systems. So unless you specifically target kernel space and MMU code, you
> shouldn't notice much difference.
>
> But yeah, it's a problem. Not many multicore 32bit PPCs exist in the first
> place, and even less has readily available boards with them on the market,

I am trying to think of a multicore 32 bit powerpc.  Hmm.

BeBox comes to mind.  Dual 603s.  I wouldn't recommend it. :)

--
Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Lennart Sorensen
In reply to this post by Lennart Sorensen
On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 05:16:16AM +0000, luigi burdo wrote:
> talos-secure-workstation
> prize $4000 + taxes the mobo without cpu
> with 4 core power 8 and gpu prize will be $18.000
> not for my poket ... happy you will have this extras

I wish. :)

I didn't noticve the $7500 complete desktop system didn't include a CPU.
Ouch.

There are cheaper CPUs than the one in the $18000 model, but still.

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Len Sorensen

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Re: Supported Hardware ?

Adrian Bunk
In reply to this post by Lennart Sorensen
On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 04:50:43PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 08:32:23PM +0200, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:
> > 64bit PPCs should be compatible with 32bit user space with most operating
> > systems. So unless you specifically target kernel space and MMU code, you
> > shouldn't notice much difference.
> >
> > But yeah, it's a problem. Not many multicore 32bit PPCs exist in the first
> > place, and even less has readily available boards with them on the market,
>
> I am trying to think of a multicore 32 bit powerpc.  Hmm.
>...

Freescale/NXP e500mc based SoCs like P2041 or P4080.

Several of the development platforms are still available.

> Len Sorensen

cu
Adrian

--

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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