System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
41 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Erik Josefsson
This is another quite open question that I probably could research
myself, if I had the time.

As far as I understand, it is quite recent that SD cards are fast and
large enough to be able to carry and run an entire Debian instance.

If this is the case, maybe there is only theory available regarding
whether you can make a computer "run faster" on a 64GB SD card than on a
32GB SD card when cards are otherwise identical.

I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less how
it works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.

Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more RAM
than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on RAM
(or is it?), then what does swap mean?

On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se)
can eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I would
guess that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more RAM",
i.e., "more swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?


Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing
fast" SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?

There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called
Extreme Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs
say it is "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but
would Pro also be faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird
and Firefox at the same time?


Best regards.

//Erik


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

songbird
Erik Josefsson wrote:
...

> I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less how
> it works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.
>
> Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more RAM
> than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on RAM
> (or is it?), then what does swap mean?
>
> On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
> installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se)
> can eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I would
> guess that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more RAM",
> i.e., "more swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?
>
>
> Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing
> fast" SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?
>
> There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called
> Extreme Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs
> say it is "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but
> would Pro also be faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird
> and Firefox at the same time?

  so much would depend upon the IO bus design for all
of these questions.

  swap is just a place for tasks to be paged out if
your system runs out of memory.

  the contention between swap and the rest of the IO
on the channels would be the deciding factor as to
how much it makes a difference.

  some people now run without any swap space at all
(memory isn't that expensive and so why not).  i don't
because at times i edit large pictures and so the
extra memory space is needed.


  songbird

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

andy smith-10
In reply to this post by Erik Josefsson
Hi Erik,

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 02:26:57PM +0200, Erik Josefsson wrote:
> As far as I understand, it is quite recent that SD cards are fast and large
> enough to be able to carry and run an entire Debian instance.

Not really recent. I've run Debian sarge on a 128MiB CompactFlash
card and I'm sure people have done more extreme things than that.

> If this is the case, maybe there is only theory available regarding whether
> you can make a computer "run faster" on a 64GB SD card than on a 32GB SD
> card when cards are otherwise identical.

So firstly, SD cards in the general case aren't that performant or
reliable. You can spend more money to get faster and more durable
ones. The unique selling point of SD cards is the form factor –
they're small and have no moving parts. They're meant to go in
devices like cameras, dashcams, cell phones, etc.

Given two SD cards that differ only in capacity, I would not expect
their performance to differ. The bigger one may last longer (survive
more writes) due to you using less of its capacity.

> I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less how it
> works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.

It doesn't work any differently, except that swapping onto SD
generally isn't great because they aren't that fast and they often
have fairly low write endurance.

SD cards aren't like SSDs, even though they are both made from a
form of flash memory. Modern SSDs and flash drives have much better
write endurance than modern SD cards.

> Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more RAM
> than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on RAM (or
> is it?), then what does swap mean?

I don't know why you have introduced the concept of a computer
running from memory, as that is a completely different topic. A
computer running from SD card isn't much different to a computer
running from an HDD or an SSD. It's just a block device.

Now, due to the low write endurance of your typical SD card, some
people — especially those making small single-purpose devices — do
configure things to load off of the SD card into memory and then run
largely from memory. This prevents writes into the SD card, thus
prolonging its life. But that tactic is not in any way required when
using SD cards and can be done with any block device.

> On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
> installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se) can
> eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I would guess
> that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more RAM", i.e., "more
> swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?

Sorry I am unfamiliar with Teres and redpill.

> Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing fast"
> SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?

If you wish to run a general purpose operating system off of an SD
card then yes I would suggest that the fastest and more durable one
you can afford would be a good idea. But also consider a regular
SSD as some of the low capacity ones may compare favourably in
price with a specialist SD card.

> There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called Extreme
> Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs say it is
> "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but would Pro also be
> faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird and Firefox at the same
> time?

Running big apps like that will benefit more from having enough
memory. After that is satisfied, fast storage will certainly help.
You'll have to look at the exact specifications of Plus vs Pro.

What are you trying to achieve?

Cheers,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by Erik Josefsson
Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-06-18 14:26:57)

> This is another quite open question that I probably could research
> myself, if I had the time.
>
> As far as I understand, it is quite recent that SD cards are fast and
> large enough to be able to carry and run an entire Debian instance.
>
> If this is the case, maybe there is only theory available regarding
> whether you can make a computer "run faster" on a 64GB SD card than on
> a 32GB SD card when cards are otherwise identical.
>
> I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less
> how it works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.
>
> Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more
> RAM than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on
> RAM (or is it?), then what does swap mean?
Good explanation on swap: https://www.linuxatemyram.com/


> On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
> installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se)
> can eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I
> would guess that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more
> RAM", i.e., "more swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?
>
>
> Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing
> fast" SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?
>
> There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called
> Extreme Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs
> say it is "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but
> would Pro also be faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird
> and Firefox at the same time?
Recent research on SD card performance:
https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/blob/master/articles/A1_and_A2_rated_SD_cards.md


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

rhkramer
In reply to this post by andy smith-10
<intentionally top posting, as I didn't see a good place to make this comment
within the previous text>

About the only thing I'd add to what others have said is that they now make
SSDs in a different form factor -- if you look for them, they start with an M,
iirc -- they are in the same size range as an SD card (well, a regular one,
not a micro).  

You need a special socket to plug them into, and I'm not sure which (if any)
single board computers (I'm trying to use that to refer to computers using a
system on a chip) have that kind of socket.

<nothing added below here>

On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 09:14:19 AM Andy Smith wrote:

> Hi Erik,
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 02:26:57PM +0200, Erik Josefsson wrote:
> > As far as I understand, it is quite recent that SD cards are fast and
> > large enough to be able to carry and run an entire Debian instance.
>
> Not really recent. I've run Debian sarge on a 128MiB CompactFlash
> card and I'm sure people have done more extreme things than that.
>
> > If this is the case, maybe there is only theory available regarding
> > whether you can make a computer "run faster" on a 64GB SD card than on a
> > 32GB SD card when cards are otherwise identical.
>
> So firstly, SD cards in the general case aren't that performant or
> reliable. You can spend more money to get faster and more durable
> ones. The unique selling point of SD cards is the form factor –
> they're small and have no moving parts. They're meant to go in
> devices like cameras, dashcams, cell phones, etc.
>
> Given two SD cards that differ only in capacity, I would not expect
> their performance to differ. The bigger one may last longer (survive
> more writes) due to you using less of its capacity.
>
> > I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less how
> > it works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.
>
> It doesn't work any differently, except that swapping onto SD
> generally isn't great because they aren't that fast and they often
> have fairly low write endurance.
>
> SD cards aren't like SSDs, even though they are both made from a
> form of flash memory. Modern SSDs and flash drives have much better
> write endurance than modern SD cards.
>
> > Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more RAM
> > than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on RAM
> > (or is it?), then what does swap mean?
>
> I don't know why you have introduced the concept of a computer
> running from memory, as that is a completely different topic. A
> computer running from SD card isn't much different to a computer
> running from an HDD or an SSD. It's just a block device.
>
> Now, due to the low write endurance of your typical SD card, some
> people — especially those making small single-purpose devices — do
> configure things to load off of the SD card into memory and then run
> largely from memory. This prevents writes into the SD card, thus
> prolonging its life. But that tactic is not in any way required when
> using SD cards and can be done with any block device.
>
> > On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
> > installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se)
> > can eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I would
> > guess that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more RAM",
> > i.e., "more swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?
>
> Sorry I am unfamiliar with Teres and redpill.
>
> > Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing
> > fast" SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?
>
> If you wish to run a general purpose operating system off of an SD
> card then yes I would suggest that the fastest and more durable one
> you can afford would be a good idea. But also consider a regular
> SSD as some of the low capacity ones may compare favourably in
> price with a specialist SD card.
>
> > There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called
> > Extreme Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs
> > say it is "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but
> > would Pro also be faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird
> > and Firefox at the same time?
>
> Running big apps like that will benefit more from having enough
> memory. After that is satisfied, fast storage will certainly help.
> You'll have to look at the exact specifications of Plus vs Pro.
>
> What are you trying to achieve?
>
> Cheers,
> Andy

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Erik Josefsson
In reply to this post by andy smith-10

Hi Andy, thanks for taking time!

On 6/18/19 3:14 PM, Andy Smith wrote:
There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called Extreme
Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs say it is
"super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but would Pro also be
faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird and Firefox at the same
time?
Running big apps like that will benefit more from having enough
memory. After that is satisfied, fast storage will certainly help.
You'll have to look at the exact specifications of Plus vs Pro.

Here's probably one of my large white spots, but what do you mean with "enough memory"?

If the computer runs from the SD card, the memory you are talking about is also on that same SD card, no?

If yes, then optimizing available SD card memory (e.g. 32GB or 64GB) would yield different performance results, but that does not seem to be the case!


What are you trying to achieve?

I want to make up my mind whether I will have the time to use Teres-I with redpill RC3 at work (i.e. in school).

Thanks again!

//Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

rhkramer
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 11:21:51 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:

> Hi Andy, thanks for taking time!
>
> On 6/18/19 3:14 PM, Andy Smith wrote:
> >> There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called
> >> Extreme Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs
> >> say it is "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but
> >> would Pro also be faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird
> >> and Firefox at the same time?
> >
> > Running big apps like that will benefit more from having enough
> > memory. After that is satisfied, fast storage will certainly help.
> > You'll have to look at the exact specifications of Plus vs Pro.
>
> Here's probably one of my large white spots, but what do you mean with
> "enough memory"?
>
> If the computer runs from the SD card, the memory you are talking about
> is also on that same SD card, no?

I should let Andy speak for himself, but, I believe the answer is no --
earlier in the thread something made me think you were confusing RAM with
memory on the SD card -- RAM is not on the SD card, it is "closer" to the CPU,
on or near the motherboard.  (I don't know whether an SOC (System on a Chip)
includes the RAM on the chip -- if not, it is much closer, physically and
electrically to the CPU than the SD card.


>
> If yes, then optimizing available SD card memory (e.g. 32GB or 64GB)
> would yield different performance results, but that does not seem to be
> the case!
>
> > What are you trying to achieve?
>
> I want to make up my mind whether I will have the time to use Teres-I
> with redpill RC3 at work (i.e. in school).
>
> Thanks again!
>
> //Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Nicholas Geovanis-2
In reply to this post by Erik Josefsson
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:22 AM Erik Josefsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

If the computer runs from the SD card, the memory you are talking about is also on that same SD card, no?

No. The SD card is analogous to the hard drive, not to the RAM. 

Thanks again!

//Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Dan Ritter-4
In reply to this post by rhkramer
[hidden email] wrote:

> On Tuesday, June 18, 2019 11:21:51 AM Erik Josefsson wrote:
> > If the computer runs from the SD card, the memory you are talking about
> > is also on that same SD card, no?
>
> I should let Andy speak for himself, but, I believe the answer is no --
> earlier in the thread something made me think you were confusing RAM with
> memory on the SD card -- RAM is not on the SD card, it is "closer" to the CPU,
> on or near the motherboard.  (I don't know whether an SOC (System on a Chip)
> includes the RAM on the chip -- if not, it is much closer, physically and
> electrically to the CPU than the SD card.

Some SoCs are literally mounted directly beneath a RAM chip;
some have a fixed amount of RAM built-in; some use an external
RAM supply (which may be soldered or socketed).

The useful ways of generically referring to these things:

memory = RAM, volatile on power loss

storage = "disk" of some variety, retaining information through
          power loss

-dsr-

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Erik Josefsson
In reply to this post by Nicholas Geovanis-2
On 6/18/19 5:46 PM, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

If the computer runs from the SD card, the memory you are talking about is also on that same SD card, no?

No. The SD card is analogous to the hard drive, not to the RAM.

Thanks! Now things start to make sense again :-)

That means there could be some margin of performance optimization of Teres-I, but the non-SD-card hardware together with the "IO bus design" songbird mentioned (thank you songbird!) is non-configurable, i.e. the real bottleneck.

I need either to drop gui or figure out a way to make the Teres-I laptop perform almost as good as a Lenovo N22-20 Chromebook model 80SF (which is what the kids had last year).

Or drop Teres-I.

//Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-06-18 18:15:39)

> On 6/18/19 5:46 PM, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> >
> >     If the computer runs from the SD card, the memory you are
> >     talking about is also on that same SD card, no?
> >
> > No. The SD card is analogous to the hard drive, not to the RAM.
>
> Thanks! Now things start to make sense again :-)
>
> That means there could be some margin of performance optimization of
> Teres-I, but the non-SD-card hardware together with the "IO bus
> design" songbird mentioned (thank you songbird!) is non-configurable,
> i.e. the real bottleneck.
>
> I need either to drop gui or figure out a way to make the Teres-I
> laptop perform almost as good as a Lenovo N22-20 Chromebook model 80SF
> (which is what the kids had last year).
Such a Lenovo Chromebook outperforms the Teres-1 on every way.

You should use Teres-I not for its speed but its price and ethics:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Jochen Spieker
In reply to this post by Erik Josefsson
Erik Josefsson:
>
> As far as I understand, it is quite recent that SD cards are fast and large
> enough to be able to carry and run an entire Debian instance.

The capacity is not a problem for quite some time, depending on your
space requirements. You can still run a minimal Debian on way less than
1GB. The same is true for the speed. SD cards tend to be used with and
optimized for large(ish) files like photos and videos. Reading and
writing these files should be quite fast, but I would not expect great
performance for random I/O on small files.

> If this is the case, maybe there is only theory available regarding whether
> you can make a computer "run faster" on a 64GB SD card than on a 32GB SD
> card when cards are otherwise identical.

I don't know.

> I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less how it
> works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.

The same as with other storage. Swap means using persistent, slow and
cheap storage as RAM. It is exactly that, cheap and painfully slow.
Under normal circumstances you should avoid swapping like the plague.
(Yes, the Linux kernel tends to make use of swap in the background "just
in case". It does not need necessarily to worry you if free(1) or top(1)
report swap usage.)

> Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more RAM
> than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on RAM (or
> is it?), then what does swap mean?

What do you mean, running from RAM? I do not see a connection of this
sentence with your previous questions about SD cards. In any case,
swapping to SD card may be even worse than swapping to traditional hard
disks.

> On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
> installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se) can
> eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I would guess
> that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more RAM", i.e., "more
> swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?

I don't know that hardware except for what I was able to google quickly.
But "more RAM" and "more swap" are very different things. Swap does not
help your computer to perform better. It helps your computer to do
things very, very slowly that it otherwise would not be able to do at
all.

> Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing fast"
> SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?
>
> There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called Extreme
> Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs say it is
> "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but would Pro also be
> faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird and Firefox at the same
> time?

Not necessarily. I would try to look for benchmarks that also test
random I/O. Also, it sounds more like your system is memory-constrained
and even the fastest SD cards will not help you with that, see above.

J.
--
I think the environment will be okay.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
                 <http://archive.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Erik Josefsson
In reply to this post by Jonas Smedegaard-2
On 6/18/19 9:04 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I need either to drop gui or figure out a way to make the Teres-I 
laptop perform almost as good as a Lenovo N22-20 Chromebook model 80SF 
(which is what the kids had last year).
Such a Lenovo Chromebook outperforms the Teres-1 on every way.

I know, that's why I wrote "almost as good".

The Ubuntu version that Teres-I comes with feels almost as good, which is why I still don't understand why running Debian from the SD-card doesn't.

Maybe it's just a technical fact that it can never do, regardless of optimizations and settings, and that I didn't get that memo?

You should use Teres-I not for its speed but its price and ethics: 
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/

The real world cost of using Teres-I with a Pure Blend can only be justified with the latter.

The only other, in that sense, ethical laptop I know of are the ones you can buy from puri.sm.

Because PureOS is a Debian Pure Blend, isn't it?

//Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Nicholas Geovanis-2

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 4:10 PM Erik Josefsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

The Ubuntu version that Teres-I comes with feels almost as good, which is why I still don't understand why running Debian from the SD-card doesn't.

Then I would be interested to know which release of Ubuntu and see an installed package list. But i will hit the websites, no need to post here.


//Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Dan Ritter-4
Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 4:10 PM Erik Josefsson <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The Ubuntu version that Teres-I comes with feels almost as good, which is
> > why I still don't understand why running Debian from the SD-card doesn't.
> >
> Then I would be interested to know which release of Ubuntu and see an
> installed package list. But i will hit the websites, no need to post here.

He seems to be comparing speed of Ubuntu on an internal eMMC
storage (16GB, 8 bit interface) to the speed of Debian on an
SD card interface (either 4 bit or 1 bit interface, depending
on what they chose).

The eMMC should transfer twice as fast at minimum, and possibly
8x as fast as the SD card.

-dsr- (I looked at the spec.)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
In reply to this post by Erik Josefsson
Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-06-18 23:10:03)
> Because PureOS is a Debian Pure Blend, isn't it?

No, PureOS is Debian Blend (one of my main tasks in the company is to
work on that) but not a Pure Blend: It contains non-Debian parts and
will likely always due to a core aim of complying with both Debian and
FSF principles so as long as Debian and FSF disagrees on some marginal
details PureOS will stay a "non-pure" Debian Blend:
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianPureBlends#Terminology


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

David Christensen
In reply to this post by Erik Josefsson
On 6/18/19 5:26 AM, Erik Josefsson wrote:

> This is another quite open question that I probably could research
> myself, if I had the time.
>
> As far as I understand, it is quite recent that SD cards are fast and
> large enough to be able to carry and run an entire Debian instance.
>
> If this is the case, maybe there is only theory available regarding
> whether you can make a computer "run faster" on a 64GB SD card than on a
> 32GB SD card when cards are otherwise identical.
>
> I don't really know how swap works on a standard computer, even less how
> it works when the whole computer runs from/on a SD card.
>
> Swap is supposed to be make your computer pretend that you have more RAM
> than it actually has, but if the whole computer is running from/on RAM
> (or is it?), then what does swap mean?
>
> On Teres-I with redpill RC2 (now there is a RC3 that I have not yet
> installed) an unfortunate website with pop up commercials (like dn.se)
> can eat all performance there is and freeze the mouse for hours. I would
> guess that could have been fixed on a normal computer with "more RAM",
> i.e., "more swap"? But is the same true for e.g. Teres-I?
>
>
> Second question is if it is meaningful to buy a "super duper blazing
> fast" SD card for the task to run a whole Debian system?
>
> There is a very expensive 64GB SD card from SanDisk that is called
> Extreme Pro that costs twice as much as same size Extreme Plus. Specs
> say it is "super duper blazing fast" for video in "Ultra HD 4K", but
> would Pro also be faster than Plus for the task of running Thunderbird
> and Firefox at the same time?
>
>
> Best regards.
>
> //Erik


The best way to answer your question regarding performance of a size N
SD card vs. a size 2*N SD card is to buy two cards and benchmark them
using your workload.  Please publish your findings.


I have considered installing and running Debian on SD cards.  At this
point, I would probably choose a "high endurance" device rather than a
"fast' device, because I want the system to last.  (The few solid-state
device failures I have seen all followed the same pattern:  working to
non-working, with no warning and little or no recovery.  At least one
included the smell of roasting electronics; e.g. "let the smoke out".)


I have tried running machines without swap, but found that they crashed.
  Now I always include a 1 GB swap partition when installing.


I have run Debian on USB flash drives 24x7 in headless servers and in
desktops, but cheap used SSD's are better.  (That said, a USB flash
drive install is invaluable for trouble-shooting and maintenance.)


"Run from RAM" means "Live CD".  I created my own Debian-based live CD
in the past.  I believe the starting point was here:

     https://wiki.debian.org/DebianLive


If the Teres-I is a "Do It Yourself Open Source Hardware and Software
Hacker's friendly Modular Laptop", where are the downloads?

     https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/


David

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting David Christensen (2019-06-19 03:38:56)
> On 6/18/19 5:26 AM, Erik Josefsson wrote: If the Teres-I is a "Do It
> Yourself Open Source Hardware and Software Hacker's friendly Modular
> Laptop", where are the downloads?
>
>      https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/

Olimex Armbian-based downloads are documented 2 levels deeper (follow
"Kits" in the menu):
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/KITS/TERES-A64-BLACK/open-source-hardware 
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/KITS/TERES-A64-WHITE/open-source-hardware

My alternative Debian-based images are at http://box.redpill.dk/


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Erik Josefsson
In reply to this post by Dan Ritter-4

Hi Dan,

On 6/18/19 11:57 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
Nicholas Geovanis wrote: 
On Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 4:10 PM Erik Josefsson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

The Ubuntu version that Teres-I comes with feels almost as good, which is
why I still don't understand why running Debian from the SD-card doesn't.

Then I would be interested to know which release of Ubuntu and see an
installed package list. But i will hit the websites, no need to post here.
He seems to be comparing speed of Ubuntu on an internal eMMC
storage (16GB, 8 bit interface) to the speed of Debian on an
SD card interface (either 4 bit or 1 bit interface, depending 
on what they chose).

The eMMC should transfer twice as fast at minimum, and possibly
8x as fast as the SD card.

I obviously didn't get that memo.

-dsr- (I looked at the spec.)

You don't happen to see in the spec. which boot key to press to get Teres-I to start a netinstall from USB?

The new Debian-Installer worked perfectly fine with an old HP workstation a couple of weeks ago.

https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/

I'd love to try it on Teres-I.

Thanks a million!

//Erik

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: System on a chip - performance relative size and setup (how can the (Debian) setup make a difference?)

Jonas Smedegaard-2
Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-06-19 11:53:51)
> You don't happen to see in the spec. which boot key to press to get
> Teres-I to start a netinstall from USB?

Whereas boot from USB is (nowadays, wasn't always) comon among
IBM-compatible PCs, that is not common among ARM devices, and it is not
supported on Allwinner A64 SoC used in (current release of) Teres-I.

Here is the technical details: https://linux-sunxi.org/BROM#A64

...or more accurately an USB-based "FEL" mode exists but is... complex.
If you really want to try that route (not recommended!) then see also
https://linux-sunxi.org/FEL and if not yet scared off check how to
enable it at https://linux-sunxi.org/Olimex_Teres-A64#FEL_mode

In short, you really _really_ want netinstall from MicroSD!


> The new Debian-Installer worked perfectly fine with an old HP
> workstation a couple of weeks ago.
>
> https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
>
> I'd love to try it on Teres-I.

Teres-I is not yet supported by debian-installer yet - the closest
approximation I know of is achieved using my build framework.  It's been
a while since I tested the netinstall image builds myself (as you know I
have been super busy refining the the prebuilt images that you have been
using) but it should be something like this:

  git clone https://salsa.debian.org/tinker-team/box
  make images/d-i/core_teres1-teres1-buster.img.gz


 - Jonas

--
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
123