The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate

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The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate

Petter Reinholdtsen

I was just told that the application for space on the hosted Weblate
installation was approved, and am happy to report that the Norwegian
Bokmål translators are going to move from Transifex to Weblate.

The translation interface is available from
<URL: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/debian-edu-documentation/ >.

The plan is to disable the other languages in the web interface, and
only enable the ones the translation teams want to have enabled.

Weblate uses git internally, and I hope to be able to use git merge to
update the translations.  This is yet untested for this repo, so we will
see how it goes. :)

--
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

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Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Petter Reinholdtsen

[Petter Reinholdtsen 2016-10-14]
> Weblate uses git internally, and I hope to be able to use git merge to
> update the translations.  This is yet untested for this repo, so we
> will see how it goes. :)

Now we know how it went.  There has been steady oppisition to using the
web based translation editor since before the weblate project was
created, and I fail to see the upside for my part to being included in
that conflict.  Luckily the Norwegian translation is almost 100%, so the
starting point for the future is good.

Anyway, some background for the change, from IRC today:

<h01ger> pere: please get the zh_Hant translators to add themselves to
         $wiki/CopyRight
<pere> h01ger: how did you think that should happen?  I have no contact
         with them besides the emails on the list.
         
<h01ger> no idea then
<h01ger> no other idea then
<h01ger> use the list
<h01ger> without a copyright notice, we cannot distribute their
         work. the way to get d-e-doc's d/copyright updated, is via
         adding it to $wiki/CopyRight
<pere> you want me to send an email to a translator and tell him you
       asked me to get him to update the wiki?
<h01ger> pere: you can also update those wiki pages
<pere> you lost me here.  why do you involve me, instead of talking
       directly to the translator?
<h01ger> pere: you seem to think adding translations via weblate comes
         with no costs (=no additional work). this is not true. please
         take some responsibility for the work caused by that work
<pere> right.  I'll shut down the weblate project, then.  I do not want
       to take the role of coordinating translators.
* h01ger sighs
<h01ger> maybe you can find somebody else to do it instead?
<pere> maybe.  I have no interest in fighting over the issue, I barely
       have time to run 'git pull' once in a while.
<pere> but I am not going to spend time on it, it is quicker to just
       conclude that the opposition is present and I do not want to
       spend more time on it.

I've locked down the weblate project now (ie no-one will be able to add
or update translations there any more) to make sure no more sync-ing
between the git repos are needed, and unless someone show up to take
over the responsibility of synchronizing between weblate and salsa
before Friday 2019-02-15, I'll ask the Weblate admin to remove/drop the
debian-edu-documentation project from Weblate.

Heaps of other stuff to translate there, so we will not become idle. :)
<URL: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/ > got the complete list, if
you are curious.

--
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Holger Levsen-2
On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:53:20PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> [Petter Reinholdtsen 2016-10-14]
> > Weblate uses git internally, and I hope to be able to use git merge to
> > update the translations.  This is yet untested for this repo, so we
> > will see how it goes. :)
>
> Now we know how it went.  There has been steady oppisition to using the
> web based translation editor since before the weblate project was
> created,

I object to this summary. I'm very glad about the ongoing translations
coming in via the weblate project!

What I'm objecting to is the work caused on - mostly me - by adding .po
files which are are being worked on for a short time and/or without
giving proper distribution licences via editing $wiki/CopyRight pages
(as those are then automatically added to debian/copyright in the source
package.)

Without entries in debian/copyright we *cannot* distribute these
translations.

(adding translations also has more costs, like longer build times of the
packages, more build failures due to errors in .po files, etc)

> and I fail to see the upside for my part to being included in
> that conflict.  Luckily the Norwegian translation is almost 100%, so the
> starting point for the future is good.
>
> Anyway, some background for the change, from IRC today:
>
> <h01ger> pere: please get the zh_Hant translators to add themselves to
>          $wiki/CopyRight
> <pere> h01ger: how did you think that should happen?  I have no contact
>          with them besides the emails on the list.
>          
> <h01ger> no idea then
> <h01ger> no other idea then
> <h01ger> use the list
> <h01ger> without a copyright notice, we cannot distribute their
>          work. the way to get d-e-doc's d/copyright updated, is via
>          adding it to $wiki/CopyRight
> <pere> you want me to send an email to a translator and tell him you
>        asked me to get him to update the wiki?
> <h01ger> pere: you can also update those wiki pages
> <pere> you lost me here.  why do you involve me, instead of talking
>        directly to the translator?
> <h01ger> pere: you seem to think adding translations via weblate comes
>          with no costs (=no additional work). this is not true. please
>          take some responsibility for the work caused by that work
> <pere> right.  I'll shut down the weblate project, then.  I do not want
>        to take the role of coordinating translators.
> * h01ger sighs
> <h01ger> maybe you can find somebody else to do it instead?
> <pere> maybe.  I have no interest in fighting over the issue, I barely
>        have time to run 'git pull' once in a while.
> <pere> but I am not going to spend time on it, it is quicker to just
>        conclude that the opposition is present and I do not want to
>        spend more time on it.
<h01ger> | i also dont have more time to spend on it. its
quicker for me to drop translations we cannot distribute than trying to
fix this, especially if i dont know whether these translators will ever come
back and finish those translations

> I've locked down the weblate project now (ie no-one will be able to add
> or update translations there any more)

sigh.

> to make sure no more sync-ing
> between the git repos are needed, and unless someone show up to take
> over the responsibility of synchronizing between weblate and salsa
> before Friday 2019-02-15, I'll ask the Weblate admin to remove/drop the
> debian-edu-documentation project from Weblate.

thats a very short deadline...


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Wolfgang Schweer-3
On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:10:35PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:53:20PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> > [Petter Reinholdtsen 2016-10-14]
[..]
> > unless someone show up to take over the responsibility of
> > synchronizing between weblate and salsa before Friday 2019-02-15,
> > I'll ask the Weblate admin to remove/drop the
> > debian-edu-documentation project from Weblate.
>
> thats a very short deadline...

Please keep weblate translations going on.
I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).

Wolfgang

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Petter Reinholdtsen
In reply to this post by Holger Levsen-2
[Holger Levsen]
> I object to this summary. I'm very glad about the ongoing translations
> coming in via the weblate project!

Fair enough.  I refer to the fact that there were protests against using
both Transifex and Weblate since before the Weblate project was updated
and up to this day, and the fact that you repeatedly have asked for
procedures that are not going to work with Weblate and made it clear
that you would rather not have translations from Weblate than have them
provided in the way Weblate is implemented.  Several translators made it
clear that they did not want to use Weblate for their languages, and
these languages were hidden from Weblate to avoid any conflict.

Anyway, it is all water under the brigde, so there is no point for me to
convince anyone about what has been.

> Without entries in debian/copyright we *cannot* distribute these
> translations.

Given section 6 in <URL: https://weblate.org/en/terms/ >, I doubt this
to be true.

--
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Petter Reinholdtsen
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Schweer-3

[Wolfgang Schweer]
> Please keep weblate translations going on.
> I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).

I would be happy to teach anyone, including you, how to sync between
weblate and salsa (which mostly involve 'git pull weblate master && git
push' with a few clicks on the Weblate admin page to reduce the chance
of any git conflict in between).

I just concluded that the joy/frustration threshold had been passed
today on this task and will try to spend time on something with higher
joy/frustration value instead.

--
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Petter Reinholdtsen
On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 01:36:11PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> Anyway, it is all water under the brigde, so there is no point for me to
> convince anyone about what has been.

agreed.

> > Without entries in debian/copyright we *cannot* distribute these
> > translations.
> Given section 6 in <URL: https://weblate.org/en/terms/ >, I doubt this
> to be true.

debian policy requires this for packages in main.


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Wolfgang Schweer-3
On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 01:30:21PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 01:36:11PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> > > Without entries in debian/copyright we *cannot* distribute these
> > > translations.
> > Given section 6 in <URL: https://weblate.org/en/terms/ >, I doubt this
> > to be true.
>
> debian policy requires this for packages in main.
 
I'm just wondering if there is some special case for translations done
via PO files. As an example see:
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/debian-reference

The translation is done via PO files (and there are a lot) but
debian/copyright doesn't seem to contain the translators' names.

Wolfgang

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Frans Spiesschaert
In reply to this post by Petter Reinholdtsen
Petter Reinholdtsen schreef op ma 11-02-2019 om 14:00 [+0100]:

> [Wolfgang Schweer]
> > Please keep weblate translations going on.
> > I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).
>
> I would be happy to teach anyone, including you, how to sync between
> weblate and salsa (which mostly involve 'git pull weblate master &&
> git
> push' with a few clicks on the Weblate admin page to reduce the
> chance
> of any git conflict in between).
>
> I just concluded that the joy/frustration threshold had been passed
> today on this task and will try to spend time on something with
> higher
> joy/frustration value instead.

If no one else steps in, I am willing to try and take over the Weblate
part, although this means that in the beginning I will be in need of
some guidance, because I have no previous experience with administering
a Weblate project. I only have a Weblate user account in order to be
able to update the Dutch translation for the po4a package.

--
Regards,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Frans Spiesschaert
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Schweer-3
Wolfgang Schweer schreef op ma 11-02-2019 om 16:37 [+0100]:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 01:30:21PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 01:36:11PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen
> > wrote:
> > > > Without entries in debian/copyright we *cannot* distribute
> > > > these
> > > > translations.
> > >
> > > Given section 6 in <URL: https://weblate.org/en/terms/ >, I doubt
> > > this
> > > to be true.
> >
> > debian policy requires this for packages in main.
>
>  
> I'm just wondering if there is some special case for translations
> done 
> via PO files. As an example see: 
> https://salsa.debian.org/debian/debian-reference
>
> The translation is done via PO files (and there are a lot) but 
> debian/copyright doesn't seem to contain the translators' names.

Anyway, in most cases the po file header should contain some copyright
information.

--
Regards,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Petter Reinholdtsen
In reply to this post by Frans Spiesschaert
[Frans Spiesschaert]
> If no one else steps in, I am willing to try and take over the Weblate
> part, although this means that in the beginning I will be in need of
> some guidance, because I have no previous experience with
> administering a Weblate project. I only have a Weblate user account in
> order to be able to update the Dutch translation for the po4a package.

Mike Gabriel stepped up on IRC earlier today, and I've added him as a
weblate project admin.  I leave it to him to add you as well, if you two
agree it is a good idea. :)

--
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

mike.gabriel
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Schweer-3
Hi Wolfgang,

On  Mo 11 Feb 2019 13:26:36 CET, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:10:35PM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:53:20PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
>> > [Petter Reinholdtsen 2016-10-14]
> [..]
>> > unless someone show up to take over the responsibility of
>> > synchronizing between weblate and salsa before Friday 2019-02-15,
>> > I'll ask the Weblate admin to remove/drop the
>> > debian-edu-documentation project from Weblate.
>>
>> thats a very short deadline...
>
> Please keep weblate translations going on.
> I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).
>
> Wolfgang
FTR, I took over the Weblate administration part from Petter.

Furthermore, I will look into the possibility / feature of having a  
staging repository (probably a branch on debian-edu-doc.git) so that  
not all updates on weblate immediately end up in d-e-d's master branch.

I hope that I will get to this the following week.

Mike
--

DAS-NETZWERKTEAM
c\o Technik- und Ökologiezentrum Eckernförde
Mike Gabriel, Marienthaler str. 17, 24340 Eckernförde
mobile: +49 (1520) 1976 148
landline: +49 (4354) 8390 139

GnuPG Fingerprint: 9BFB AEE8 6C0A A5FF BF22  0782 9AF4 6B30 2577 1B31
mail: [hidden email], http://das-netzwerkteam.de


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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

mike.gabriel
In reply to this post by Frans Spiesschaert
HI Frans,

On  Mo 11 Feb 2019 21:10:56 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:

> Petter Reinholdtsen schreef op ma 11-02-2019 om 14:00 [+0100]:
>> [Wolfgang Schweer]
>> > Please keep weblate translations going on.
>> > I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).
>>
>> I would be happy to teach anyone, including you, how to sync between
>> weblate and salsa (which mostly involve 'git pull weblate master &&
>> git
>> push' with a few clicks on the Weblate admin page to reduce the
>> chance
>> of any git conflict in between).
>>
>> I just concluded that the joy/frustration threshold had been passed
>> today on this task and will try to spend time on something with
>> higher
>> joy/frustration value instead.
>
> If no one else steps in, I am willing to try and take over the Weblate
> part, although this means that in the beginning I will be in need of
> some guidance, because I have no previous experience with administering
> a Weblate project. I only have a Weblate user account in order to be
> able to update the Dutch translation for the po4a package.
I only saw your reply to this thread now. I'll be happy to share the  
workload with you.

If possible, let's meet on IRC #debian-edu and discuss about the  
distribution of tasks.

I'll be around most of tomorrow, I guess. Also on Friday. Please  
highlight me on #debian-edu (or let me know what nick you are... I  
hope you are available on IRC... if not...).

If you are not on IRC, please let's maybe have a quick WebRTC chat to  
discuss the work ahead.

Thanks+Greets,
Mike

PS: when mailing to me via debian-edu ML, feel free to Cc: me  
directly, so that I see your reply asap.
PPS: when mailing to others via  debian-edu ML, don't Cc: them... ;-)  
unless explicitly requested...
--

DAS-NETZWERKTEAM
c\o Technik- und Ökologiezentrum Eckernförde
Mike Gabriel, Marienthaler str. 17, 24340 Eckernförde
mobile: +49 (1520) 1976 148
landline: +49 (4354) 8390 139

GnuPG Fingerprint: 9BFB AEE8 6C0A A5FF BF22  0782 9AF4 6B30 2577 1B31
mail: [hidden email], http://das-netzwerkteam.de


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Re: Time to drop Weblate (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Frans Spiesschaert
Hi Mike,
Mike Gabriel schreef op di 12-02-2019 om 22:15 [+0000]:

> HI Frans,
>
> On  Mo 11 Feb 2019 21:10:56 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:
>
> > Petter Reinholdtsen schreef op ma 11-02-2019 om 14:00 [+0100]:
> > > [Wolfgang Schweer]
> > > > Please keep weblate translations going on.
> > > > I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).
> > >
> > > I would be happy to teach anyone, including you, how to sync
> > > between
> > > weblate and salsa (which mostly involve 'git pull weblate master
> > > &&
> > > git
> > > push' with a few clicks on the Weblate admin page to reduce the
> > > chance
> > > of any git conflict in between).
> > >
> > > I just concluded that the joy/frustration threshold had been
> > > passed
> > > today on this task and will try to spend time on something with
> > > higher
> > > joy/frustration value instead.
> >
> > If no one else steps in, I am willing to try and take over the
> > Weblate
> > part, although this means that in the beginning I will be in need
> > of
> > some guidance, because I have no previous experience with
> > administering
> > a Weblate project. I only have a Weblate user account in order to
> > be
> > able to update the Dutch translation for the po4a package.
>
> I only saw your reply to this thread now. I'll be happy to share
> the  
> workload with you.
>
> If possible, let's meet on IRC #debian-edu and discuss about the  
> distribution of tasks.

I tried to join you on #debian-edu this afternoon, but it was somehow
in vain. I suppose you were available only passively. No problem with
me. I usually prefer anyway slower communication methods.


>
> I'll be around most of tomorrow, I guess. Also on Friday. Please  
> highlight me on #debian-edu (or let me know what nick you are... I  
> hope you are available on IRC... if not...).

I use frans_ as my nickname (frans not being available any more).

>
> If you are not on IRC, please let's maybe have a quick WebRTC chat
> to  
> discuss the work ahead.

My involvement with Debian Edu is mainly limited to maintaining the
Dutch translation.
The reason why I voluntered to take over Weblate coordination was to
prevent that some Debian Edu translators would find themselves suddenly
deprived of their preferred translation tool.
I'm completely fine with you taking over Weblate coordination and I am
confident that you will do a better job than I ever would be able to
do.
Given my very limited skills, I'm not sure that I can be of much help
to you. But if you have a different opinion, I'm willing to try and
take some easy and non-urgent tasks, as long as you are willing to take
the lead.
Don't expect me to be highly responsive, but you may expect me to
always be loyal and cooperative.
Given such a context, perhaps you rather prefer to take care of Weblate
coordination alone. That would completely fine for me too.
It's up to you to freely decide on this.

--
See you,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: Time to intensify Weblate usage (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

mike.gabriel
Hi Frans,

thanks for your reply.

On  Mi 13 Feb 2019 17:23:13 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Mike Gabriel schreef op di 12-02-2019 om 22:15 [+0000]:
>> HI Frans,
>>
>> On  Mo 11 Feb 2019 21:10:56 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:
>>
>> > Petter Reinholdtsen schreef op ma 11-02-2019 om 14:00 [+0100]:
>> > > [Wolfgang Schweer]
>> > > > Please keep weblate translations going on.
>> > > > I'll take over the wiki edit part (copyright).
>> > >
>> > > I would be happy to teach anyone, including you, how to sync
>> > > between
>> > > weblate and salsa (which mostly involve 'git pull weblate master
>> > > &&
>> > > git
>> > > push' with a few clicks on the Weblate admin page to reduce the
>> > > chance
>> > > of any git conflict in between).
>> > >
>> > > I just concluded that the joy/frustration threshold had been
>> > > passed
>> > > today on this task and will try to spend time on something with
>> > > higher
>> > > joy/frustration value instead.
>> >
>> > If no one else steps in, I am willing to try and take over the
>> > Weblate
>> > part, although this means that in the beginning I will be in need
>> > of
>> > some guidance, because I have no previous experience with
>> > administering
>> > a Weblate project. I only have a Weblate user account in order to
>> > be
>> > able to update the Dutch translation for the po4a package.
>>
>> I only saw your reply to this thread now. I'll be happy to share
>> the  
>> workload with you.
>>
>> If possible, let's meet on IRC #debian-edu and discuss about the  
>> distribution of tasks.
>
> I tried to join you on #debian-edu this afternoon, but it was somehow
> in vain. I suppose you were available only passively. No problem with
> me. I usually prefer anyway slower communication methods.
I saw several message from you on IRC, but I am fine with e-Mail.

>>
>> I'll be around most of tomorrow, I guess. Also on Friday. Please  
>> highlight me on #debian-edu (or let me know what nick you are... I  
>> hope you are available on IRC... if not...).
>
> I use frans_ as my nickname (frans not being available any more).

Ok, noted. But let's stick to email for now.

>>
>> If you are not on IRC, please let's maybe have a quick WebRTC chat
>> to  
>> discuss the work ahead.
>
> My involvement with Debian Edu is mainly limited to maintaining the
> Dutch translation.

And that is awesome!!! Thanks for your contribution.

> The reason why I voluntered to take over Weblate coordination was to
> prevent that some Debian Edu translators would find themselves suddenly
> deprived of their preferred translation tool.

Very good motivation.

> I'm completely fine with you taking over Weblate coordination and I am
> confident that you will do a better job than I ever would be able to
> do.

;-)

> Given my very limited skills, I'm not sure that I can be of much help
> to you. But if you have a different opinion, I'm willing to try and
> take some easy and non-urgent tasks, as long as you are willing to take
> the lead.

I don't really have an opinion here. I guess, that I can do the  
currently required changes to Weblate and the Git workflow myself and  
on my own.

However, may I suggest to place you as co-admin for Debian Edu  
Documentation on Weblate? To reduce the bus factor, it would be good  
to have another Debian Edu team member with admin permissions on the  
Weblate projects relevant for us.

If ok, please make sure you have a hosted.weblate.org account and send  
me your user name, so I can add you as co-admin to the project.

> Don't expect me to be highly responsive, but you may expect me to
> always be loyal and cooperative.

Very nice!!! :-D

> Given such a context, perhaps you rather prefer to take care of Weblate
> coordination alone. That would completely fine for me too.
> It's up to you to freely decide on this.

One step is moving things around a bit, so that we can offer more  
translation languages on Weblate.

Another step is to check, whether individual languages can appear on  
Weblate but can be set to read-only (for people preferring poedit).

Yet another step is working on some shell script that allows picking  
translations from a Git staging branch in debian-edu-doc over to the  
master branch.

And then...

Then, we may see more translations filling with translated strings and  
we possible see more people joining the translation effort for more  
and more languages. Once that happens, it might need more people to be  
responsive to messages coming in from Weblate. I'd be grateful if you  
could help out there, once we are ready for it.

Let me know what you think on my proposals,

Mike

--

DAS-NETZWERKTEAM
c\o Technik- und Ökologiezentrum Eckernförde
Mike Gabriel, Marienthaler str. 17, 24340 Eckernförde
mobile: +49 (1520) 1976 148
landline: +49 (4354) 8390 139

GnuPG Fingerprint: 9BFB AEE8 6C0A A5FF BF22  0782 9AF4 6B30 2577 1B31
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Re: Time to intensify Weblate usage (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

Frans Spiesschaert
Hi Mike,

Mike Gabriel schreef op do 14-02-2019 om 14:28 [+0000]:

> Hi Frans,
>
> thanks for your reply.
>
> On  Mi 13 Feb 2019 17:23:13 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:
>
> >
> > I use frans_ as my nickname (frans not being available any more).
>
> Ok, noted. But let's stick to email for now.
>
> >
> > I'm completely fine with you taking over Weblate coordination and I
> > am
> > confident that you will do a better job than I ever would be able
> > to
> > do.
>
> ;-)
>
> > Given my very limited skills, I'm not sure that I can be of much
> > help
> > to you. But if you have a different opinion, I'm willing to try and
> > take some easy and non-urgent tasks, as long as you are willing to
> > take
> > the lead.
>
> I don't really have an opinion here. I guess, that I can do the  
> currently required changes to Weblate and the Git workflow myself
> and  
> on my own.
>
> However, may I suggest to place you as co-admin for Debian Edu  
> Documentation on Weblate? To reduce the bus factor, it would be
> good  
> to have another Debian Edu team member with admin permissions on
> the  
> Weblate projects relevant for us.

Ok, but bear in mind that even for simple actions, I will have to
pass through a learning stage.

>
> If ok, please make sure you have a hosted.weblate.org account and
> send  
> me your user name, so I can add you as co-admin to the project.

my hosted.weblate.org user name is [hidden email]

>
>
> One step is moving things around a bit, so that we can offer more  
> translation languages on Weblate.

For the moment we have buster-manual translations for da, de, es,
fr, it, ja, nb, nl, pl, zh and zh_Hant of which nb, pl, zh and zh_Hant
use weblate.
de and nl are up-to-date and make use of the Debian i18n
infrastructure. No need for those languages to be added to weblate, in
my opinion.
The translations for da, es, fr, it and ja lag behind. They don't use
weblate but have an active translation community within Debian.
I would suggest to try to revitalize those translations first via
the appropriate Debian i18n mailing lists before transfering those
languages to weblate. I'm willing to try to prepare a draft e-mail to
those lists, asking for volunteers to update the buster manual.
I would prefer to send it to you for review beforehand.

>
> Another step is to check, whether individual languages can appear
> on  
> Weblate but can be set to read-only (for people preferring poedit).

I'm not so sure that this is needed as long as translations can be kept
up to date using Debian's own i18n infrastructure.

>
> Yet another step is working on some shell script that allows
> picking  
> translations from a Git staging branch in debian-edu-doc over to
> the  
> master branch.

In my opinion that would be a very good thing if this could help us to
keep early translations out of the git-infrastructure of Debian Edu
itself, until they meet the minimum requirements for release.

>
> And then...
>
> Then, we may see more translations filling with translated strings
> and  
> we possible see more people joining the translation effort for more  
> and more languages.

While Debian Edu is a Debian Pure Blend, I think that we shouldn't
bypass the i18n infrastructure of Debian in the first place. I agree
with you that if we could manage to get more Debian-Edu-Doc
translations by reaching out via weblate to translators that are in
favour of free software, but aren't affiliated to Debian, it would
definitely be a plus. Of course I'm also fine with all Debian l10n
teams that prefer weblate as their translation tool, as nb is doing
already right now.

>  Once that happens, it might need more people to be  
> responsive to messages coming in from Weblate. I'd be grateful if
> you  
> could help out there, once we are ready for it.

I'm willing to help out and to act as your backup if needed.

>
> Let me know what you think on my proposals,
>
> Mike
>

--
Kind regards,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: Time to intensify Weblate usage (Was: The Norwegian Bokmål translation team move from Transifex to Weblate)

mike.gabriel
Hi Frans,

On  Do 14 Feb 2019 21:29:42 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> Mike Gabriel schreef op do 14-02-2019 om 14:28 [+0000]:
>> Hi Frans,
>>
>> thanks for your reply.
>>
>> On  Mi 13 Feb 2019 17:23:13 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I use frans_ as my nickname (frans not being available any more).
>>
>> Ok, noted. But let's stick to email for now.
>>
>> >
>> > I'm completely fine with you taking over Weblate coordination and I
>> > am
>> > confident that you will do a better job than I ever would be able
>> > to
>> > do.
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> > Given my very limited skills, I'm not sure that I can be of much
>> > help
>> > to you. But if you have a different opinion, I'm willing to try and
>> > take some easy and non-urgent tasks, as long as you are willing to
>> > take
>> > the lead.
>>
>> I don't really have an opinion here. I guess, that I can do the  
>> currently required changes to Weblate and the Git workflow myself
>> and  
>> on my own.
>>
>> However, may I suggest to place you as co-admin for Debian Edu  
>> Documentation on Weblate? To reduce the bus factor, it would be
>> good  
>> to have another Debian Edu team member with admin permissions on
>> the  
>> Weblate projects relevant for us.
>
> Ok, but bear in mind that even for simple actions, I will have to
> pass through a learning stage.
Yep. Ok.

>>
>> If ok, please make sure you have a hosted.weblate.org account and
>> send  
>> me your user name, so I can add you as co-admin to the project.
>
> my hosted.weblate.org user name is [hidden email]

Ok. I have added you to the Weblate D-E-D translation project as admin.

>> One step is moving things around a bit, so that we can offer more  
>> translation languages on Weblate.
>
> For the moment we have buster-manual translations for da, de, es,
> fr, it, ja, nb, nl, pl, zh and zh_Hant of which nb, pl, zh and zh_Hant
> use weblate.

Yes.

> de and nl are up-to-date and make use of the Debian i18n
> infrastructure. No need for those languages to be added to weblate, in
> my opinion.

I agree. I would still love to see their status on Weblate, so I need  
to find out, if nl and de can be viewed on Weblate but are read-only  
there.

> The translations for da, es, fr, it and ja lag behind. They don't use
> weblate but have an active translation community within Debian.

ok.

> I would suggest to try to revitalize those translations first via
> the appropriate Debian i18n mailing lists before transfering those
> languages to weblate.

ok. Can you do this? (Post to the mailing list, etc.).

> I'm willing to try to prepare a draft e-mail to
> those lists, asking for volunteers to update the buster manual.
> I would prefer to send it to you for review beforehand.

Ah... I should read before doing inline replies. Great!!!

>>
>> Another step is to check, whether individual languages can appear
>> on  
>> Weblate but can be set to read-only (for people preferring poedit).
>
> I'm not so sure that this is needed as long as translations can be kept
> up to date using Debian's own i18n infrastructure.

It is not needed, that is right. It is just a nice-to-have thing. Esp.  
if people stroll around on Weblate and wonder why very common  
languages are missing from the Weblate translation pages.

>> Yet another step is working on some shell script that allows
>> picking  
>> translations from a Git staging branch in debian-edu-doc over to
>> the  
>> master branch.
>
> In my opinion that would be a very good thing if this could help us to
> keep early translations out of the git-infrastructure of Debian Edu
> itself, until they meet the minimum requirements for release.

Yes. That's the context of it.

>>
>> And then...
>>
>> Then, we may see more translations filling with translated strings
>> and  
>> we possible see more people joining the translation effort for more  
>> and more languages.
>
> While Debian Edu is a Debian Pure Blend, I think that we shouldn't
> bypass the i18n infrastructure of Debian in the first place. I agree
> with you that if we could manage to get more Debian-Edu-Doc
> translations by reaching out via weblate to translators that are in
> favour of free software, but aren't affiliated to Debian, it would
> definitely be a plus. Of course I'm also fine with all Debian l10n
> teams that prefer weblate as their translation tool, as nb is doing
> already right now.
I fully agree on this. D-E-D is simply a huge translation project and  
feels more like an upstream project to be translated than just some  
package debconf templates.

The advantage with Weblate is that translators might stroll by and  
work on stuff and that also multiple people can work on translation  
+/- at the same time.

But I agree with you, that we should get the l10n teams involved first  
and then decide about what language is offered on Weblate and what is  
offered for translation inside the Debian l10n workflow.

>>  Once that happens, it might need more people to be  
>> responsive to messages coming in from Weblate. I'd be grateful if
>> you  
>> could help out there, once we are ready for it.
>
> I'm willing to help out and to act as your backup if needed.

Thanks!

>>
>> Let me know what you think on my proposals,
>>
>> Mike
>>

Greets,
Mike
--

DAS-NETZWERKTEAM
c\o Technik- und Ökologiezentrum Eckernförde
Mike Gabriel, Marienthaler str. 17, 24340 Eckernförde
mobile: +49 (1520) 1976 148
landline: +49 (4354) 8390 139

GnuPG Fingerprint: 9BFB AEE8 6C0A A5FF BF22  0782 9AF4 6B30 2577 1B31
mail: [hidden email], http://das-netzwerkteam.de


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Re: Time to intensify Weblate usage

Frans Spiesschaert
Hi Mike,

Basically, I can agree with all your points of view.

There is one possible consequence that I am afraid of, when
translations that are doing well within Debian itself, would show up on
weblate: an increase in workload when it comes to reviewing and
coordinating translations, especially for poorly staffed language
communities.

Let me take the case of the Dutch language community within Debian as
an example.
Our team (Debian Dutch l10n Team <[hidden email]>)
counts about 40 members/followers. Most of them aren't active
translators. They merely act as occasional reviewers.
In order to have a workable workflow, we agreed on a few rules:
- all translation activity will be coordinated in one single place: the
Dutch localisation mailing list.
- all translations will be submitted for review to the list.
- no explicit reaction on a request for the review of a translation,
means an approval of it (a kind of silent approval procedure, so to
say).

Now, last year Debian ended the email interface to the Debian
Description Translation Project and from that moment on, solely the web
interface can be used. This immediately had the following consequences:
1. two different places for reviewers to follow up on translations and
2. while on the web interface each translation needs a minimum of two
explicit approvals, no silent approvals are possible anymore and people
started to lose interest. From that moment on not even one Dutch
description translation entered the distribution any more: a real
drawback.

Now suppose one day someone on weblate wants to help out with the Dutch
translation. In principle, a very good thing, but in practice a third
location that reviewers would have to follow up on.

What I want to say through this example: we will have to be very
careful that we don't put unintentionally extra burdens op poorly
staffed teams. And we will need to stay very attentive that whatever we
undertake, it will always need to be supportive for the translation
teams involved, and, more precisely, supportive the way those teams
define it themselves.

So far my concerns.

Soon, I will propose a draft call for translations to you and to this
list, but for now it's time to go and rest.

--
Kind regards,
Frans Spiesschaert

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Re: Time to intensify Weblate usage

mike.gabriel
Hi Frans,

On  Fr 15 Feb 2019 23:23:38 CET, Frans Spiesschaert wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> Basically, I can agree with all your points of view.
>
> There is one possible consequence that I am afraid of, when
> translations that are doing well within Debian itself, would show up on
> weblate: an increase in workload when it comes to reviewing and
> coordinating translations, especially for poorly staffed language
> communities.
>
> Let me take the case of the Dutch language community within Debian as
> an example.
> Our team (Debian Dutch l10n Team <[hidden email]>)
> counts about 40 members/followers. Most of them aren't active
> translators. They merely act as occasional reviewers.
> In order to have a workable workflow, we agreed on a few rules:
> - all translation activity will be coordinated in one single place: the
> Dutch localisation mailing list.
> - all translations will be submitted for review to the list.
> - no explicit reaction on a request for the review of a translation,
> means an approval of it (a kind of silent approval procedure, so to
> say).
>
> Now, last year Debian ended the email interface to the Debian
> Description Translation Project and from that moment on, solely the web
> interface can be used. This immediately had the following consequences:
> 1. two different places for reviewers to follow up on translations and
> 2. while on the web interface each translation needs a minimum of two
> explicit approvals, no silent approvals are possible anymore and people
> started to lose interest. From that moment on not even one Dutch
> description translation entered the distribution any more: a real
> drawback.
>
> Now suppose one day someone on weblate wants to help out with the Dutch
> translation. In principle, a very good thing, but in practice a third
> location that reviewers would have to follow up on.
>
> What I want to say through this example: we will have to be very
> careful that we don't put unintentionally extra burdens op poorly
> staffed teams. And we will need to stay very attentive that whatever we
> undertake, it will always need to be supportive for the translation
> teams involved, and, more precisely, supportive the way those teams
> define it themselves.
>
> So far my concerns.
>
> Soon, I will propose a draft call for translations to you and to this
> list, but for now it's time to go and rest.
Thanks for this explanation. We certainly don't want to put more  
burden on translation team volunteers than is needed.

Let's take the Debian l10n path and wait for the feedbacks we get.  
With Weblate, I will wait some more time (due to other prios) before I  
add more languages.

I will only add those languages that are not actively maintained by  
the Debian l10n sub-teams.

Greets,
Mike
--

DAS-NETZWERKTEAM
c\o Technik- und Ökologiezentrum Eckernförde
Mike Gabriel, Marienthaler str. 17, 24340 Eckernförde
mobile: +49 (1520) 1976 148
landline: +49 (4354) 8390 139

GnuPG Fingerprint: 9BFB AEE8 6C0A A5FF BF22  0782 9AF4 6B30 2577 1B31
mail: [hidden email], http://das-netzwerkteam.de


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Re: Time to intensify Weblate usage

Petter Reinholdtsen
[Mike Gabriel]
> I will only add those languages that are not actively maintained by  
> the Debian l10n sub-teams.

Note, there is a regex blacklist in place to keep some languages out of
the weblate interface.  New languages outside this blacklist are added
when new translators start working on them.  You can change this to
block new translators from starting on a new language using a gui
setting, I believe.  It is a bad idea as it will scare potential
contributors away.

--
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

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