The following packages have been kept back

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The following packages have been kept back

Dave Horsfall
Latest Debian 8 (will go to 9 soon) on Acer Aspire E15

     root@debbie:/home/dave# apt-get upgrade
     Reading package lists... Done
     Building dependency tree
     Reading state information... Done
     Calculating upgrade... Done
     The following packages have been kept back:
       firmware-linux-nonfree
     The following packages will be upgraded:
       firmware-atheros
     1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.

What on earth does that mean?  I have "non-free" listed in sources.list
(which this list told me to do).

-- Dave

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Re: The following packages have been kept back

bartender

open synaptic
left click all
F6
down arrow
firmware-linux-nonfree
right click        firmware-linux-nonfree
choose properties
let us know what it says
esc
firmware-atheros
right click  firmware-atheros
properties
report back to us


Ciao!
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////////          -   |  :   \\\\
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   ///


---- Dave Horsfall <[hidden email]> wrote:

=============
Latest Debian 8 (will go to 9 soon) on Acer Aspire E15

     root@debbie:/home/dave# apt-get upgrade
     Reading package lists... Done
     Building dependency tree
     Reading state information... Done
     Calculating upgrade... Done
     The following packages have been kept back:
       firmware-linux-nonfree
     The following packages will be upgraded:
       firmware-atheros
     1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.

What on earth does that mean?  I have "non-free" listed in sources.list
(which this list told me to do).

-- Dave


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Re: The following packages have been kept back

Dave Horsfall
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, bartender wrote:

[ Helpful list ]

> report back to us

OK...

firmware-linux-nonfree:
     Status: Installed (upgradeable)
     Installed Version: 0.43
     Latest: 20161130-4-deb8d

firmware-atheros:
     Status: Installed
     Version: 20161130-4-deb8d
     Latest: 20161130-4-deb8d

That firmware-linux-nonfree certainly looks odd.

Keep in mind that when it comes to Linux (esp. Debian), I'm still a newbie,
as I mostly use FreeBSD and Mac...

-- Dave

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Re: The following packages have been kept back

Dave Horsfall
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018, Dave Horsfall wrote:

[ ... ]

> That firmware-linux-nonfree certainly looks odd.

Well, I dunno if this post had anything to do with it (thanks if so!) but
the updater suddenly notified me...

-- Dave

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Re: The following packages have been kept back

Marvin Renich
In reply to this post by Dave Horsfall
* Dave Horsfall <[hidden email]> [181118 14:42]:

> Latest Debian 8 (will go to 9 soon) on Acer Aspire E15
>
>     root@debbie:/home/dave# apt-get upgrade
>     Reading package lists... Done
>     Building dependency tree
>     Reading state information... Done
>     Calculating upgrade... Done
>     The following packages have been kept back:
>       firmware-linux-nonfree
>     The following packages will be upgraded:
>       firmware-atheros
>     1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
>
> What on earth does that mean?  I have "non-free" listed in sources.list
> (which this list told me to do).

The apt-get upgrade command does a "safe" upgrade; it will not install
any new packages or delete obsolete packages, nor will it upgrade any
package whose new version would require such.

If you say «apt-get install firmware-linux-nonfree» it should tell you
what it is going to do and ask for confirmation if any other packages
will be installed or removed.

I believe, in this case, the new version of firmware-linux-nonfree
depends on firmware-amd-graphics and firmware-misc-nonfree, which the
old package does not require.  The upgrade command will refuse to do
this automatically, but the install command should work just fine.

It used to be that aptitude was the recommended tool for managing
packages within a terminal window; it can be used as a command line tool
the way apt-get can, but if you don't give it a command (i.e. just say
«aptitude») it uses a curses interface to allow you to manage the
packages (sort of like synaptic, but for a terminal window).

At some point, I think about 10-15 years ago (but don't quote me on
that), aptitude's resolver was changed, and it became less helpful.  The
resolver is the part of aptitude and apt-get which takes what you have
asked it to do and figures out what other actions need to be done to
achieve that.  The resolver in apt-get did a better job of choosing a
more useful solution.

Because of that, the next release of Debian started recommending apt-get
instead.  However, apt-get only has a command line interface, not a
curses-based interface, so it is harder to choose between multiple ways
to satisfy dependencies (e.g. when a package Recommends: package-a |
package-b, and package-a and package-b have different dependencies
themselves).

I still use aptitude in curses mode most of the time, using apt-get or
aptitude command line mode in only limited situations.  And I also
recommend aptitude for some users who have at least a basic
understanding of how package dependencies work.  I put the following
snippet in a file in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ to help the resolver make
better choices:

Aptitude::ProblemResolver {
    SolutionCost "priority, removals, canceled-actions";
}

Aptitude is no longer installed in a default installation, so you will
probably have to install it with «apt-get install aptitude» if you want
to try it out.

...Marvin

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Re: The following packages have been kept back

Matus UHLAR - fantomas
>* Dave Horsfall <[hidden email]> [181118 14:42]:
>> Latest Debian 8 (will go to 9 soon) on Acer Aspire E15
>>
>>     root@debbie:/home/dave# apt-get upgrade
>>     Reading package lists... Done
>>     Building dependency tree
>>     Reading state information... Done
>>     Calculating upgrade... Done
>>     The following packages have been kept back:
>>       firmware-linux-nonfree
>>     The following packages will be upgraded:
>>       firmware-atheros
>>     1 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
>>
>> What on earth does that mean?  I have "non-free" listed in sources.list
>> (which this list told me to do).

On 19.11.18 10:09, Marvin Renich wrote:
>The apt-get upgrade command does a "safe" upgrade; it will not install
>any new packages or delete obsolete packages, nor will it upgrade any
>package whose new version would require such.

I use unattended-upgrades for security upgrades and manual aptitude in these
cases.

>If you say «apt-get install firmware-linux-nonfree» it should tell you
>what it is going to do and ask for confirmation if any other packages
>will be installed or removed.

I would call this unfortunate, because security update should not bring new
packages unless really needed.

>I believe, in this case, the new version of firmware-linux-nonfree
>depends on firmware-amd-graphics and firmware-misc-nonfree, which the
>old package does not require.

I think so.

>  The upgrade command will refuse to do
>this automatically, but the install command should work just fine.

apt-get dist-upgrade would do that too, but I wouldn't recommend doing this
unless you are upgrading your debian version.

>It used to be that aptitude was the recommended tool for managing
>packages within a terminal window; it can be used as a command line tool
>the way apt-get can, but if you don't give it a command (i.e. just say
>«aptitude») it uses a curses interface to allow you to manage the
>packages (sort of like synaptic, but for a terminal window).

I still use it and I'm glad aptitude exists.
I use it when upgrading debian (takes more time but shortens outages) to
upgrade packages selectively.

>At some point, I think about 10-15 years ago (but don't quote me on
>that), aptitude's resolver was changed, and it became less helpful.  The
>resolver is the part of aptitude and apt-get which takes what you have
>asked it to do and figures out what other actions need to be done to
>achieve that.  The resolver in apt-get did a better job of choosing a
>more useful solution.

I disable aptitude to automatically resolve dependencies. Those manually
selected often suck. But, when you can select what you want (using . and ,)
we can select.

Worse is, that between jessie and stretch, something in aptitude has
changed, so when I select to upgrade package and don't like the result,
selecting "keep" by pressing ":" on a package doesn't revert to previous
state as did the jessie version.

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, [hidden email] ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
It's now safe to throw off your computer.

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Re: The following packages have been kept back

bartender
In reply to this post by Dave Horsfall

     Installed Version: 0.43
     Latest: 20161130-4-deb8d
"

This is the clue.  If I remember correctly, "20161130-4-deb8d" hit the press when folks were automatically upgraded to Debian 9.6.  When we accepted the new system we got this one.  Do this :

synaptic
at the top of page you will see
"
Mark all upgrades
"

choose/click that

apply should light up

if, double/click apply or cntrl-p then space  bar

give us a follow/up




Ciao, Ragazzo!
    ///
 //////// |(°)           .  \\\
////////          -   |  :   \\\\
////////          -   |  :   \\\\
 //////// |(°)           '  \\\
   ///


---- Dave Horsfall <[hidden email]> wrote:

=============
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018, bartender wrote:

[ Helpful list ]

> report back to us

OK...

firmware-linux-nonfree:
     Status: Installed (upgradeable)
     Installed Version: 0.43
     Latest: 20161130-4-deb8d

firmware-atheros:
     Status: Installed
     Version: 20161130-4-deb8d
     Latest: 20161130-4-deb8d

That firmware-linux-nonfree certainly looks odd.

Keep in mind that when it comes to Linux (esp. Debian), I'm still a newbie,
as I mostly use FreeBSD and Mac...

-- Dave


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Re: The following packages have been kept back

Marvin Renich
In reply to this post by Matus UHLAR - fantomas
* Matus UHLAR - fantomas <[hidden email]> [181119 11:13]:
> On 19.11.18 10:09, Marvin Renich wrote:
> > If you say «apt-get install firmware-linux-nonfree» it should tell you
> > what it is going to do and ask for confirmation if any other packages
> > will be installed or removed.
>
> I would call this unfortunate, because security update should not bring new
> packages unless really needed.

This does not appear to be a security update, but (looking at the
version numbers involved) a release upgrade from jessie to stretch,
though I could be wrong.  Security updates, in general, do not add or
remove dependencies without a real need.  The security team is very
sensitive to this.  Also, unattended-upgrades does not simply do apt-get
upgrade; I believe it does allow changing dependencies.

I'm not sure why you say «apt-get install ...» asking for confirmation
is unfortunate (or were you saying something else?).

...Marvin

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Re: The following packages have been kept back

Matus UHLAR - fantomas
>> On 19.11.18 10:09, Marvin Renich wrote:
>> > If you say «apt-get install firmware-linux-nonfree» it should tell you
>> > what it is going to do and ask for confirmation if any other packages
>> > will be installed or removed.

>* Matus UHLAR - fantomas <[hidden email]> [181119 11:13]:
>> I would call this unfortunate, because security update should not bring new
>> packages unless really needed.

On 20.11.18 13:39, Marvin Renich wrote:
>This does not appear to be a security update, but (looking at the
>version numbers involved) a release upgrade from jessie to stretch,
>though I could be wrong.  Security updates, in general, do not add or
>remove dependencies without a real need.  The security team is very
>sensitive to this.

It's an update due to a security bug, so I believe it's correct to call it a
security update.

However it happened in jessie that is in LTS state, so it's not the security
but the LTS team who took care of that.

> Also, unattended-upgrades does not simply do apt-get
>upgrade; I believe it does allow changing dependencies.

I didn't say that, I just noted that both unattended-upgrades and
"apt-get upgrade" seem to behave the same way here.

>I'm not sure why you say «apt-get install ...» asking for confirmation
>is unfortunate (or were you saying something else?).

unfortunate is that a security update bringsa in a new package when there
seems to be no reason for that.
I can understand that for wireshark or clamav if they bring new libraries
with new ABI, but firmware doesn't seem to be the case.

I may be wrong about the reasons of course.
--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, [hidden email] ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.