Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

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Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Boyuan Yang-2
Dear -devel list,

(Please forward this email to proper mailing lists if there's other lists that
this email would suit in better.)

I noticed that for all bug reports that orphan a package in Debian, a semi-
standard paragraph of words will be provided like this:

========

...Maintaining a package requires time and skills. Please only adopt this
package if you will have enough time and attention to work on it.

If you want to be the new maintainer, please see
https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o for detailed
instructions how to adopt a package properly....

========

However, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o provides almost zero
information for an enthusiast that want to adopt the package, i.e. there's no
detailed instruction on how to actually upload a package for a person not
quite familiar with Debian's packaging workflow.

I'd suggest some kind of rewording on the website given that this link has
been posted everywhere in different BTS bug reports. Including a link to
https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers might be a good idea. Anyway any
kind of improvement would be appreciated.

--
Thanks,
Boyuan Yang

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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Michael Kesper-5
Hi Boyuan,

On 27.06.19 21:38, Boyuan Yang wrote:
[I'm also not sure what's the best mailing list for discussing this, devel, doc, mentors?]

> I noticed that for all bug reports that orphan a package in Debian, a semi-
> standard paragraph of words will be provided like this:
>
> ========
>
> ...Maintaining a package requires time and skills. Please only adopt this
> package if you will have enough time and attention to work on it.
>
> If you want to be the new maintainer, please see
> https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o for detailed
> instructions how to adopt a package properly....
>
> ========
>
> However, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o provides almost zero
> information for an enthusiast that want to adopt the package, i.e. there's no
> detailed instruction on how to actually upload a package for a person not
> quite familiar with Debian's packaging workflow.
>
> I'd suggest some kind of rewording on the website given that this link has
> been posted everywhere in different BTS bug reports. Including a link to
> https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers might be a good idea. Anyway any
> kind of improvement would be appreciated.
That's a very good point you spotted there.
This text actively discourage people from doing work and gives them no pointers
to information re the "requred time and skills" would be.

That clearly should be improved, maybe:

Maintaining a package requires time and skills.
Please have a look at https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers
for getting started.

[and intro-maintainers should at first feature some welcoming words and then
the right documentation for beginners (is that
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html or
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html ?)

Bye
Michael


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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Osamu Aoki
Hi,

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:37:58AM +0200, Michael Kesper wrote:

> Hi Boyuan,
>
> On 27.06.19 21:38, Boyuan Yang wrote:
> [I'm also not sure what's the best mailing list for discussing this, devel, doc, mentors?]
>
> > I noticed that for all bug reports that orphan a package in Debian, a semi-
> > standard paragraph of words will be provided like this:
> >
> > ========
> >
> > ...Maintaining a package requires time and skills. Please only adopt this
> > package if you will have enough time and attention to work on it.
> >
> > If you want to be the new maintainer, please see
> > https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o for detailed
> > instructions how to adopt a package properly....
> >
> > ========
> >
> > However, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o provides almost zero
> > information for an enthusiast that want to adopt the package, i.e. there's no
> > detailed instruction on how to actually upload a package for a person not
> > quite familiar with Debian's packaging workflow.
> >
> > I'd suggest some kind of rewording on the website given that this link has
> > been posted everywhere in different BTS bug reports. Including a link to
> > https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers might be a good idea. Anyway any
> > kind of improvement would be appreciated.
>
> That's a very good point you spotted there.
> This text actively discourage people from doing work and gives them no pointers
> to information re the "requred time and skills" would be.

I agree.

> That clearly should be improved, maybe:
>
> Maintaining a package requires time and skills.
> Please have a look at https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers
> for getting started.
>
> [and intro-maintainers should at first feature some welcoming words and then
> the right documentation for beginners (is that
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html or

Yes.

> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html ?)

No since I don't want to maintain 2 of them forever.

If you see some important tutorial contents are missing in debmake-doc
which you can find them in maint-guide, please file a bug on debmake-doc
with proposed text.   If it is something as guideline, you may propose
it to developers-reference.  (FYI: I am trying to convert
developers-reference to sphinx now and working on a branch.  Any
volunteer to help this is appreciated.)

Osamu

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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Tobias Frost-4
In reply to this post by Boyuan Yang-2
On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 03:38:48PM -0400, Boyuan Yang wrote:

> Dear -devel list,
>
> (Please forward this email to proper mailing lists if there's other lists that
> this email would suit in better.)
>
> I noticed that for all bug reports that orphan a package in Debian, a semi-
> standard paragraph of words will be provided like this:
>
> ========
>
> ...Maintaining a package requires time and skills. Please only adopt this
> package if you will have enough time and attention to work on it.
>
> If you want to be the new maintainer, please see
> https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o for detailed
> instructions how to adopt a package properly....
>
> ========

This text comes from a template we use in the MIA-Team.
You can find it here:
https://salsa.debian.org/qa/qa/blob/master/mia/templates/wnpp-orphan.mia

> However, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o provides almost zero
> information for an enthusiast that want to adopt the package, i.e. there's no
> detailed instruction on how to actually upload a package for a person not
> quite familiar with Debian's packaging workflow.
>
> I'd suggest some kind of rewording on the website given that this link has
> been posted everywhere in different BTS bug reports. Including a link to
> https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers might be a good idea. Anyway any
> kind of improvement would be appreciated.

A MR would be indeed very welcome! ;-)

--
Cheers,
tobi

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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Osamu Aoki
On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:07:19AM +0200, Tobias Frost wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 03:38:48PM -0400, Boyuan Yang wrote:
> > Dear -devel list,
> >
> > (Please forward this email to proper mailing lists if there's other lists that
> > this email would suit in better.)
> >
> > I noticed that for all bug reports that orphan a package in Debian, a semi-
> > standard paragraph of words will be provided like this:
> >
> > ========
> >
> > ...Maintaining a package requires time and skills. Please only adopt this
> > package if you will have enough time and attention to work on it.
> >
> > If you want to be the new maintainer, please see
> > https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o for detailed
> > instructions how to adopt a package properly....
> >
> > ========
>
> This text comes from a template we use in the MIA-Team.
> You can find it here:
> https://salsa.debian.org/qa/qa/blob/master/mia/templates/wnpp-orphan.mia
>
> > However, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o provides almost zero
> > information for an enthusiast that want to adopt the package, i.e. there's no
> > detailed instruction on how to actually upload a package for a person not
> > quite familiar with Debian's packaging workflow.
> >
> > I'd suggest some kind of rewording on the website given that this link has
> > been posted everywhere in different BTS bug reports. Including a link to
> > https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers might be a good idea. Anyway any
> > kind of improvement would be appreciated.
>
> A MR would be indeed very welcome! ;-)

OK.  I will do so to request to add the following for 4 files:

If you are a prospective Debian maintainer, you are encouraged to take
this package.  We need a volunteer like you.  Please note that
maintaining a package requires time and skills.  Please look at
https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers to understand existing
practices first.  If you are new to Debian packaging, please read a
tutorial document such as
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html and also
study how other Debian maintainers package similar packages.

Osamu

> --
> Cheers,
> tobi
>

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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Michael Kesper-5
In reply to this post by Osamu Aoki
Hi Osamu, hi all,

On 29.06.19 03:05, Osamu Aoki wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:37:58AM +0200, Michael Kesper wrote:
>> Maintaining a package requires time and skills.
>> Please have a look at https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers
>> for getting started.
>>
>> [and intro-maintainers should at first feature some welcoming words and then
>> the right documentation for beginners (is that
>> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html or
>
> Yes.
>
>> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html ?)
>
> No since I don't want to maintain 2 of them forever.
I'd gladly change the mentors.debian.net site but you can only register
as a mentor. ;)

> If you see some important tutorial contents are missing in debmake-doc
> which you can find them in maint-guide, please file a bug on debmake-doc
> with proposed text.   If it is something as guideline, you may propose
> it to developers-reference.  (FYI: I am trying to convert
> developers-reference to sphinx now and working on a branch.  Any
> volunteer to help this is appreciated.)

Is that branch on salsa?

Bye
Michael


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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Michael Kesper-5
In reply to this post by Osamu Aoki
Hi all,

On 07.07.19 14:47, Osamu Aoki wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:07:19AM +0200, Tobias Frost wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 03:38:48PM -0400, Boyuan Yang wrote:[snip]
>> This text comes from a template we use in the MIA-Team.
>> You can find it here:
>> https://salsa.debian.org/qa/qa/blob/master/mia/templates/wnpp-orphan.mia
>>
>>> However, https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/#howto-o provides almost zero
>>> information for an enthusiast that want to adopt the package, i.e. there's no
>>> detailed instruction on how to actually upload a package for a person not
>>> quite familiar with Debian's packaging workflow.
>>>
>>> I'd suggest some kind of rewording on the website given that this link has
>>> been posted everywhere in different BTS bug reports. Including a link to
>>> https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers might be a good idea. Anyway any
>>> kind of improvement would be appreciated.
>>
>> A MR would be indeed very welcome! ;-)
>
> OK.  I will do so to request to add the following for 4 files:
>
> If you are a prospective Debian maintainer, you are encouraged to take
> this package.> We need a volunteer like you.  Please note that
> maintaining a package requires time and skills.  Please look at
> https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers to understand existing
> practices first.  If you are new to Debian packaging, please read a
> tutorial document such as
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html and also
> study how other Debian maintainers package similar packages.
I think this is still starting a little bit negative, maybe like this?

If nobody adopts this package it will vanish from Debian.
Do you care for this package being part of Debian?
If so, have a look at https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers to
understand best practices of maintaining a package.
If you are new to Debian packaging, please read the tutorial
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html and also
study how other Debian maintainers package similar packages.

Bye
Michael


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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Michael Kesper-5
Hi again,

On 09.07.19 09:17, Michael Kesper wrote:
> I think this is still starting a little bit negative, maybe like this?
>
> If nobody adopts this package it will vanish from Debian.
> Do you care for this package being part of Debian?
                       ^^^^^^^
Maybe change this "package" to software, as I just realized that term
is used a little bit too often here and users don't care about
"packages" but about using software.

> If so, have a look at https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers to
> understand best practices of maintaining a package.
> If you are new to Debian packaging, please read the tutorial
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html and also
> study how other Debian maintainers package similar packages.
                                     ^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^
Don't know exactly how to phrase that better.

Bye
Michael


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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Nicholas D Steeves
To everyone who is working on this problem, thank you :-)

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 10:38:14AM +0200, Michael Kesper wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> On 09.07.19 09:17, Michael Kesper wrote:
> > I think this is still starting a little bit negative, maybe like this?
> >
> > If nobody adopts this package it will vanish from Debian.
> > Do you care for this package being part of Debian?
>                        ^^^^^^^
> Maybe change this "package" to software, as I just realized that term
> is used a little bit too often here and users don't care about
> "packages" but about using software.
>
The Case of the Disappearing Orphans: Motivations for maintaining to
open source software.

To be fair, doesn't the QA team (and random acts of kindness) often
keep these packages alive?  Maybe say something about that, and also
how placement into a team provides better support for both the
package/software and prospective contributor?

Also, in the interest of keeping things positive, is it worth noting
that Debian has "an almost magical ability to transform users into
developers" (I read that in an article somewhere, years ago)?  Thus,
maybe package orphaning bug reports can become a more smooth path for
situating new contributors into whatever context has the best chance
of maximising their long-term motivation and future contributions?

> > If so, have a look at https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers to
> > understand best practices of maintaining a package.
> > If you are new to Debian packaging, please read the tutorial
> > https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/index.en.html and also
> > study how other Debian maintainers package similar packages.
>                                      ^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^
> Don't know exactly how to phrase that better.

Hm, I'm not sure.  Ideally it seems like it would be nice if we could
provide a bit more streamlined procedure for "similar packages".  Eg:

  1. What language is the package implemented in?
  2. Is there a team for that?
  ...URL for intake page for new members to a team, with
  hello-world packaging example (technical reference) and a link to the
  git repo of a complex package that is a well-documented high quality
  model of the team standards.  The language-specific Hello-world
  example should use dh, unless the team generally doesn't (eg: IIRC the
  Haskell team, et al).  The complex package would be a learn-by-example
  for things like overrides.

Contributors will eventually learn how to search & find the resources
they need, but I've seen a number of emails expressing how new
contributors feel laughed at for not being able to find the relevant
information and solutions.


Thanks again to everyone who is working on this!
Regards,
Nicholas

P.S. has anyone yet volunteered to help out with that sphinx document
conversion project.

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dev-ref: migration to Sphinx (was Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports)

Holger Levsen-2
In reply to this post by Michael Kesper-5
On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:15:57AM +0200, Michael Kesper wrote:
> > it to developers-reference.  (FYI: I am trying to convert
> > developers-reference to sphinx now and working on a branch.  Any
> > volunteer to help this is appreciated.)
> Is that branch on salsa?

yes, see "#931548 Migration to Sphinx" & thanks, help certainly very welcome!


--
tschau,
        Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
               holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
       PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

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Re: Uninformative hyperlink in O: (package orphaning) bug reports

Paul Wise via nm
In reply to this post by Nicholas D Steeves
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 11:24 PM Nicholas D Steeves wrote:

> To be fair, doesn't the QA team (and random acts of kindness) often
> keep these packages alive?

There is no specific team maintaining orphaned packages, other than
the set of Debian contributors who are motivated to do that.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise