Visual problems on the front page

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Visual problems on the front page

Alexander Rødseth-2
Hello,

All the rounded corners on the images on your front page are jagged. As
far as I know, this is a web-design no-no, looks butt ugly and is easy
to fix.
Do you need any help on this? Have you seen all the beautiful and free
web designs at http://www.oswd.org/ ? (*hint-hint*)

Happy to help, ;)
   Alexander Rødseth


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Jutta Wrage
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Am 29.03.2006 um 11:15 schrieb Alexander Rødseth:

> Happy to help, ;)

If you want to help get the cvs tree and make patches and examples.  
You can find more about helping at http://www.us.debian.org/devel/ 
website/. Feel free to make examples for adjusted css. You may also  
submit a working CSS stylesheet to this maling list, so that we could  
test it somewhere.

About the rounded corners: the are gecko-only and inserted to have  
the round corners from the old layout, which was using tables and  
images. Either they will be removed or replaced by CSS3-corners, when  
CSS3 is implemented in browsers. I am not sure, if people like me to  
remove them just now. ;-)



greetings

Jutta

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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Alexander Rødseth-2
Hello again,


Jutta Wrage wrote:
> If you want to help get the cvs tree and make patches and examples.
> You can find more about helping at
> http://www.us.debian.org/devel/website/. Feel free to make examples
> for adjusted css. You may also submit a working CSS stylesheet to this
> maling list, so that we could test it somewhere.
I felt the idea of making the rounded corners beautiful instead of ugly
was a contribution in itself. I understand the culture of the
meritocracy, where every suggestion are responded to with a "do it
yourself", but I reserve the right to come with suggestions without
being the one to implement them. However, I will not exclude the
possibility that I might send a patch in the future.


> About the rounded corners: the are gecko-only and inserted to have the
> round corners from the old layout, which was using tables and images.
> Either they will be removed or replaced by CSS3-corners, when CSS3 is
> implemented in browsers. I am not sure, if people like me to remove
> them just now. ;-)
If it was up to me, I would introduce CSS-corners right away, even if
the fallback was square corners. Everything is better than jagged edges. :-)
Doing it the same way as the majority of pages with rounded corners
(images in the corners, without jagged corners), is also a possibility.


Best regards,
   Alexander Rødseth


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Florian Ludwig
Alexander Rødseth wrote:

> Hello again,
>
>
> Jutta Wrage wrote:
>> If you want to help get the cvs tree and make patches and examples.
>> You can find more about helping at
>> http://www.us.debian.org/devel/website/. Feel free to make examples
>> for adjusted css. You may also submit a working CSS stylesheet to
>> this maling list, so that we could test it somewhere.
> I felt the idea of making the rounded corners beautiful instead of
> ugly was a contribution in itself. I understand the culture of the
> meritocracy, where every suggestion are responded to with a "do it
> yourself", but I reserve the right to come with suggestions without
> being the one to implement them. However, I will not exclude the
> possibility that I might send a patch in the future.
Perhaps i'll send some ideas (with html source) in the future :)

>
>
>> About the rounded corners: the are gecko-only and inserted to have
>> the round corners from the old layout, which was using tables and
>> images. Either they will be removed or replaced by CSS3-corners, when
>> CSS3 is implemented in browsers. I am not sure, if people like me to
>> remove them just now. ;-)
> If it was up to me, I would introduce CSS-corners right away, even if
> the fallback was square corners. Everything is better than jagged
> edges. :-)
> Doing it the same way as the majority of pages with rounded corners
> (images in the corners, without jagged corners), is also a possibility.
I just recognize that there are smooth round corners at
http://lists.debian.org/ already ...oO( or should i buy new glasses )

grez
Florian Ludwig


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Jutta Wrage
In reply to this post by Alexander Rødseth-2
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Am 30.03.2006 um 16:37 schrieb Alexander Rødseth:

> I felt the idea of making the rounded corners beautiful instead of  
> ugly was a contribution in itself.

At first the corners are already CSS. I can play a bit with the  
border-radius. But more it not possible in my point of view, if we do  
not want static box sizes. Posting the link to layouts was not really  
helpful for me at all. Maybe, a new layout will not have rounded  
corners at all. But until ha new layout can be applied to all pages,  
there is other work to be done first.

> I understand the culture of the meritocracy, where every suggestion  
> are responded to with a "do it yourself",

That is not my thing normally. But your message was not really  
helpful at all. Maybe, the corners look more ugly on your computer  
than on my. Then a screenshot might have been helpful. Many people  
did not notice the switch to css instead of using table and fixed  
size images for the navbar. So it cannot be that worse. ;-)

> If it was up to me, I would introduce CSS-corners right away, even  
> if the fallback was square corners. Everything is better than  
> jagged edges. :-)

I am really not sure, if gecko based browsers will display CSS3  
corners differnent from the current CSS corners with -moz-border-
radius in the CSS.

> Doing it the same way as the majority of pages with rounded corners  
> (images in the corners, without jagged corners), is also a  
> possibility.

Not an option, if you want to display the navbar well with font-sizes  
from very small up to extremely large.
For larger text boxes images are an option, for small ones like the  
blue ones in the navbar, not.

BTW: look at the page with the free layout, choose larger font  
setting in your browser and see how that  page breaks totally while  
the debian pages still are readable with large fonts. I invested  
several hours to find another solution for the navbar with the same  
look and feel as the old one with images. But everything did either  
not work at all or was totally broken with large fonts.

greetings

Jutta

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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Jutta Wrage
In reply to this post by Florian Ludwig
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Am 30.03.2006 um 21:39 schrieb Florian Ludwig:

> I just recognize that there are smooth round corners at http://
> lists.debian.org/ already ...oO( or should i buy new glasses )

If you are reading the list regularly, you may have noticed, that  
lists.debian.org still using images in the navbar was marked as bug  
already. The font is not resizable by the visitor.

greetings

Jutta

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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Alexander Rødseth-2
In reply to this post by Jutta Wrage
Hello again,


Jutta Wrage wrote:
> At first the corners are already CSS. I can play a bit with the
> border-radius. But more it not possible in my point of view, if we do
> not want static box sizes. Posting the link to layouts was not really
> helpful for me at all. Maybe, a new layout will not have rounded
> corners at all. But until ha new layout can be applied to all pages,
> there is other work to be done first.
If corners looks jagged with CSS that does not include images, I would
suggest using images for the corners. This is entirely possible without
using static box sizes.
It's a pity the link to the layouts wasn't helpful, as at contains a lot
of good examples of nice web design.

When it comes to doing other work first, I would strongly suggest to put
the look of the front page high on the list. Here's why:
- The front page is the face of the entire Debian project; it's crucial
to make a good first impression
- Jagged corners, horrible combinations of colors, fonts that doesn't
fit the logo's, <hr>-lines and a design that looks like it was pulled
out of a monkey's ass in the 80's does not give a good first impression

I'm not meaning to bash your or your website here - it is technically
brilliant! I have a lot of respect for all of you, and your work. I love
the Debian project. But, for heavens sake, do something about the
design! I'm telling you this very plain and straight-forward, with
constructive intentions. No, actually, I'm pleading you. :-)

Now, I'm no web-guru. I've made a few pages, read a few books about the
topic, had a subject about it at uni, been responsible for an intranet
with 1,4k users but I truly suck compared to the clever people out
there. If I felt I was the right guy to rescue the Debian front page, I
would take on the task right away, but I'm not. I can point the finger,
but not fix the problem.

Here's a page a just made about rounded corners, which includes a
screenshot of how jagged the corners look at my computer:
http://www.pvv.org/~alexanro/rounded.html


>> I understand the culture of the meritocracy, where every suggestion
>> are responded to with a "do it yourself",
> That is not my thing normally. But your message was not really helpful
> at all. Maybe, the corners look more ugly on your computer than on my.
> Then a screenshot might have been helpful. Many people did not notice
> the switch to css instead of using table and fixed size images for the
> navbar. So it cannot be that worse. ;-)
I'm sorry if you don't find "Wake up! The website is ugly and I think it
hurts the Debian project!" helpful. That's all I have to offer right now.


>> If it was up to me, I would introduce CSS-corners right away, even if
>> the fallback was square corners. Everything is better than jagged
>> edges. :-)
> I am really not sure, if gecko based browsers will display CSS3
> corners differnent from the current CSS corners with
> -moz-border-radius in the CSS.
I'm not sure either, but I believe they do.


>> Doing it the same way as the majority of pages with rounded corners
>> (images in the corners, without jagged corners), is also a possibility.
> Not an option, if you want to display the navbar well with font-sizes
> from very small up to extremely large.
> For larger text boxes images are an option, for small ones like the
> blue ones in the navbar, not.
Why isn't it an option?


> BTW: look at the page with the free layout, choose larger font setting
> in your browser and see how that  page breaks totally while the debian
> pages still are readable with large fonts. I invested several hours to
> find another solution for the navbar with the same look and feel as
> the old one with images. But everything did either not work at all or
> was totally broken with large fonts.
Hey, at large font-sizes, the corners look a lot better. I must say I'm
really impressed with how well the page scales with the font-sizes,
browsers and screen sizes. That is incredibly well done and I'm totally
inferior when it comes to skills like that. See, I'm not all full of
critique. :-)


No matter what direction you may choose for your webpage, I wish you the
best of luck, and appreciate your work.


Best regards,
   Alexander Rødseth



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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Jutta Wrage
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Am 31.03.2006 um 10:59 schrieb Alexander Rødseth:

> Here's a page a just made about rounded corners, which includes a  
> screenshot of how jagged the corners look at my computer:
> http://www.pvv.org/~alexanro/rounded.html

1. Tables are for tabular data! Use semantic markup!
2. We have had such corners in a table layout, which took a lot of  
hours unpaid work to be removed.
3. your example goes totally jagged with large font setting.

You critizism is about a bit out of the way as nobody is payed her  
for several hundreds of hours a year.

I personally am convinced that having page working for _everyone_ is  
much more importand than image corners with invalid HTML. And no. if  
they would look that ugly you try to make us believe, someone would  
have noted out that a year ago already.

>> Not an option, if you want to display the navbar well with font-
>> sizes from very small up to extremely large.
>> For larger text boxes images are an option, for small ones like  
>> the blue ones in the navbar, not.
>>
> Why isn't it an option?

Because the pages are for _everyone_ and have not to be broken for  
people with bad eyes.
If you do not understand, why breaking accessibility is not an  
option, I cannot do anything by that.

We have to care that 22,000 page work with the layout. That needs  
several hundred vountary work a year. So it might be enough for you:  
we will have another solution for the corners, if ther is one, which  
is really an option without breaking accessibility.

greetings

Jutta


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Florian Ludwig
Jutta Wrage wrote:

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>
>
> Am 31.03.2006 um 10:59 schrieb Alexander Rødseth:
>
>> Here's a page a just made about rounded corners, which includes a
>> screenshot of how jagged the corners look at my computer:
>> http://www.pvv.org/~alexanro/rounded.html
>
> 1. Tables are for tabular data! Use semantic markup!
> 2. We have had such corners in a table layout, which took a lot of
> hours unpaid work to be removed.
> 3. your example goes totally jagged with large font setting.
https://ankaria.de/~dino/debian/www/rounded.html

rounded corners could work nice with font large font settings.

I really doesn't want to start a war about the table thing,...
Once i thought the same way
"tables shouldn't be in  designs!"
But with, there are several things that are much easier!
For example this rounded edges :p just try to do this without tables. I
know how painful
this will be.

> I personally am convinced that having page working for _everyone_ is
> much more importand than image corners with invalid HTML. And no. if
> they would look that ugly you try to make us believe, someone would
> have noted out that a year ago already.
>
>>> Not an option, if you want to display the navbar well with
>>> font-sizes from very small up to extremely large.
>>> For larger text boxes images are an option, for small ones like the
>>> blue ones in the navbar, not.
>>>
>> Why isn't it an option?
>
> Because the pages are for _everyone_ and have not to be broken for
> people with bad eyes.
> If you do not understand, why breaking accessibility is not an option,
> I cannot do anything by that.
>
> We have to care that 22,000 page work with the layout. That needs
> several hundred vountary work a year. So it might be enough for you:
> we will have another solution for the corners, if ther is one, which
> is really an option without breaking accessibility.
>
> greetings
>
> Jutta
>

I think its good idea to give the debian website a new look. (this edges
aren't relay important, aren't they?) Take a look at the "new" python
website [1] for example. The design just look... "modern" - and.. yes..
the debian page looks much better with large fonts :p

I'm not that familiar with this accessibility to estimate it right. All
I know are theories.

Perhaps it would be a good idea  to ask a bit around - for people for
who this is done and ask them, what they like about the page and what
they don't like at the page it is now. And what they use to browse the
page, some screenshots from it etc might help more than discuss what
some here think might be good for them.

Florian Ludwig

[1] www.python.org

ps. where can i find a up to date ToDo?


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Richard Atterer-3
On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 10:55:41PM +0200, Florian Ludwig wrote:
> For example this rounded edges :p just try to do this without tables. I
> know how painful this will be.

Luckily, other people have already done that work, they have managed to
come up with nice solutions which have good cross-browser compatibility. I
consider Mozilla-specific CSS a hack.

For example:
Rounded corners: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/customcorners/
Graphical navbars: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors/

> I think its good idea to give the debian website a new look.

Hm, yes - but IMHO the lack of a good navigation menu on the Debian website
is a much more severe problem than whether some rounded corners are jagged
or not, or whether the design looks "cool".

> Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask a bit around - for people for who
> this is done and ask them, [...]

Part of my academic research is about web usability. It /might/ be possible
for me to arrange a medium-scale usability evaluation (~60 student
participants) for the Debian website. This will result in a list of
problems which need to be fixed.

However, this kind of thing only makes sense once the obvious problems have
been fixed. Jutta is currently mostly alone with this immense task, so
progress is slow despite the large amount of time she invests in the
website.

Cheers,

  Richard

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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Jutta Wrage
In reply to this post by Florian Ludwig
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Am 31.03.2006 um 22:55 schrieb Florian Ludwig:

> rounded corners could work nice with font large font settings.

With css that works well only with larger boxes. I have spend several  
days on searching a solution for the navbar last year, before I  
decided to take the current one. But

> I think its good idea to give the debian website a new look. (this  
> edges aren't relay important, aren't they?) Take a look at the  
> "new" python website [1] for example. The design just look...  
> "modern" - and.. yes.. the debian page looks much better with large  
> fonts :p

Yes, python.org looks modern. But if I increase font size in my  
browser the content in the middle of the page goes behind the right  
box - hidden.

I have collected some ideas for Debian some time now. But nothing  
makes me believe "This is a Debian page". The major problem is the  
page head. On the other hand many people aske me: Why do you want to  
change that? It is nice now.

> Perhaps it would be a good idea  to ask a bit around - for people  
> for who this is done and ask them, what they like about the page  
> and what they don't like at the page it is now.

That is the problem: some want a new design, some want it like it is.  
Major problems are in the usability (links, page menus...) But that  
cannot be solved with a new design.

> ps. where can i find a up to date ToDo?

my personal next steps (in work):
- - http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2006/03/msg00122.html
Debian wiki
- - http://wiki.debian.org/WebDesignToDo with a link for the packages  
ToDo list
Debian Website
- - http://www.debian.org/devel/website/todo

BTW: here a new example of a changed navbar:
http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/dwww/index.de.html (navbar  
changed and Hx underlined)
compare with:
http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/dwww/index.en.html (removed  
round corners)

Any css file with suggestions is saved and I have had put some online  
already (now removed due to a total clean-up in www directory for the  
moment).

greetings

Jutta

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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Jutta Wrage
In reply to this post by Richard Atterer-3
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Am 01.04.2006 um 01:27 schrieb Richard Atterer:

> For example:
> Rounded corners: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/customcorners/

Works for boxes only, not usable for the buttons in the navbar

> Graphical navbars: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slidingdoors/

This are usable nice as tabs (round corners only top, not at bottom.  
Can be used with changed design.

> Hm, yes - but IMHO the lack of a good navigation menu on the Debian  
> website
> is a much more severe problem than whether some rounded corners are  
> jagged
> or not, or whether the design looks "cool".

That is the problem... And we still need an outline of the page  
structure (not that on the file system) to create a good navigation.  
Who volunteers to start with it?

> Part of my academic research is about web usability. It /might/ be  
> possible
> for me to arrange a medium-scale usability evaluation (~60 student
> participants) for the Debian website. This will result in a list of
> problems which need to be fixed.

60 are not really representative. But they may give us ideas, what is  
needed. - Where the typical Debian user/admin is not a student, I think.

> However, this kind of thing only makes sense once the obvious  
> problems have
> been fixed. Jutta is currently mostly alone with this immense task, so
> progress is slow despite the large amount of time she invests in the
> website.

Every help is welcome, help can also be investigating some oft the  
open problems, testing pages with different browsers, finding people  
who test the accessibiliy (especially comparing how the content is  
presented)...

greetings

Jutta


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Alexander Rødseth-2
In reply to this post by Jutta Wrage
Hi again,


Jutta Wrage wrote:
>> Here's a page a just made about rounded corners, which includes a
>> screenshot of how jagged the corners look at my computer:
>> http://www.pvv.org/~alexanro/rounded.html
>
> 1. Tables are for tabular data! Use semantic markup!
Agreed. My point was never that my suggestion of how to do things was
correct, only that your way of doing things was ugly.

> 2. We have had such corners in a table layout, which took a lot of
> hours unpaid work to be removed.
I'm sure it did and I'm sure adding non-jagged corners would take a
similar amount of work.

> 3. your example goes totally jagged with large font setting.
The page I wrote, suck. That doesn't justify ignoring large parts of
what I actually wrote. Besides, if you take a look at the "pros" and
"cons" on the page, you'll see that I was aware of that from the start.

> You critizism is about a bit out of the way as nobody is payed her for
> several hundreds of hours a year.
I strongly disagree that critizism shouldn't be allowed if it's
voluntary work. There's a very thin line between "bugreport" and
"critizism that's a bit out of the way".


> I personally am convinced that having page working for _everyone_ is
> much more importand than image corners with invalid HTML.
So, you're saying it is impossible to combine good webdesign with a page
that works for everyone?


> And no. if they would look that ugly you try to make us believe,
> someone would have noted out that a year ago already.
I come here and critizise your hard work. Of course you become angry.
Who wouldn't? This is the reason someone haven't noted you a year ago
already.


>>> Not an option, if you want to display the navbar well with
>>> font-sizes from very small up to extremely large.
>>> For larger text boxes images are an option, for small ones like the
>>> blue ones in the navbar, not.
>>>
>> Why isn't it an option?
>
> Because the pages are for _everyone_ and have not to be broken for
> people with bad eyes.
> If you do not understand, why breaking accessibility is not an option,
> I cannot do anything by that.
>
> We have to care that 22,000 page work with the layout. That needs
> several hundred vountary work a year. So it might be enough for you:
> we will have another solution for the corners, if ther is one, which
> is really an option without breaking accessibility.
Very well. I give up on the rounded corners. You still have a long way
to go on those <hr>-lines, font and color-choices, though.


I wish you all continued luck with the web page, despite any hard
feelings you might have for my critizism.


Best regards,
   Alexander Rødseth


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Florian Ludwig
In reply to this post by Richard Atterer-3
Richard Atterer wrote:
>> I think its good idea to give the debian website a new look.
>>    
>
> Hm, yes - but IMHO the lack of a good navigation menu on the Debian website
> is a much more severe problem than whether some rounded corners are jagged
> or not, or whether the design looks "cool".
>  
I agree fully in this point with you!

>  
>> Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask a bit around - for people for who
>> this is done and ask them, [...]
>>    
>
> Part of my academic research is about web usability. It /might/ be possible
> for me to arrange a medium-scale usability evaluation (~60 student
> participants) for the Debian website. This will result in a list of
> problems which need to be fixed.
>  
Sounds good!
We could also ask at the debian-user maillinglists directly to get some
more results - from the people who the site is addressed to.
> However, this kind of thing only makes sense once the obvious problems have
> been fixed. Jutta is currently mostly alone with this immense task, so
> progress is slow despite the large amount of time she invests in the
> website.
>  
Again, i agree with you. She's is doing great work.

Florian Ludwig


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Re: Visual problems on the front page

Florian Ludwig
In reply to this post by Jutta Wrage

>> ps. where can i find a up to date ToDo?
>
> my personal next steps (in work):
> - - http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2006/03/msg00122.html
> Debian wiki
> - - http://wiki.debian.org/WebDesignToDo with a link for the packages
> ToDo list
> Debian Website
> - - http://www.debian.org/devel/website/todo
thx.
>
> BTW: here a new example of a changed navbar:
> http://www.witch.westfalen.de/debian/dwww/index.de.html (navbar
> changed and Hx underlined)
I like the top menu (its design). I played a bit around with html and
created something that looks very similar to this. Especially the red
lines under the headlines i like too :)


The menu ... in my opinion the color is just ugly.

The color i associate with debian is red, so imho its a good point to
show it a bit more ;) I'll post some ideas to the mailinglist in the
next days and also I'll look through the ToDo-lists. I hope a can help.

Florian Ludwig


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