dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

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dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

john doe-6
Hi,

While upgrading the dbus deamon, I get the following:

"A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon.
Please reboot the system when convenient."


I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
doing that or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?

--
John Doe

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 08:07:49PM +0200, john doe wrote:
> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
> doing that

Pro: keeping uptime
Con: keeping previous, possibly buggy, version for dbus running.

> or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?

dbus is not mandatory and is redundant for typical server software.
If you don't need it - just uninstall it. Simple as that.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

john doe-6
Hi Rico, and thanks for your answer.

On 8/13/2019 9:25 PM, Reco wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 08:07:49PM +0200, john doe wrote:
>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
>> doing that
>
> Pro: keeping uptime
> Con: keeping previous, possibly buggy, version for dbus running.
>
>> or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
>
> dbus is not mandatory and is redundant for typical server software.
> If you don't need it - just uninstall it. Simple as that.
>

okay, dbus is only required when a DE (Gnome,Mate, ...) is present.
If I'm correct, and given the fact that I don't use a DE, I could look
at safely remove it?

In other words, why is dbus a dependency when no DE is installed or what
are the corner cases when dbus is needed without a DE.

--
John Doe

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
        Hi.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 07:36:21AM +0200, john doe wrote:
> > dbus is not mandatory and is redundant for typical server software.
> > If you don't need it - just uninstall it. Simple as that.
>
> okay, dbus is only required when a DE (Gnome,Mate, ...) is present.
> If I'm correct, and given the fact that I don't use a DE, I could look
> at safely remove it?

Yup.

> In other words, why is dbus a dependency when no DE is installed or what
> are the corner cases when dbus is needed without a DE.

dbus is an optional dependency to systemd.
The reasons of such dependency are:

1) libpam-systemd, loginctl and friends.
Useful for a workstation, useless for a server.

2) Privilege escalation of systemctl, which is hardwired to PolicyKit.
Same as above.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Sven Hartge-5
Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 1) libpam-systemd, loginctl and friends.
> Useful for a workstation, useless for a server.

I wouldn't go this far. libpam-systemd and loginctl can be useful on a
server, depening on its job and role.

Grüße,
Sven.

--
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
        Hi.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 08:58:56AM +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:
> Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 1) libpam-systemd, loginctl and friends.
> > Useful for a workstation, useless for a server.
>
> I wouldn't go this far. libpam-systemd and loginctl can be useful on a
> server, depening on its job and role.

Let me rephrase. On a typical database server, file server, DNS server
and/or web server - libpam-systemd is virtually useless.
The reason for this is - all interactive user logins are used for
management tasks, not running resource-consuming programs.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Curt
On 2019-08-14, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 08:58:56AM +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:
>> Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > 1) libpam-systemd, loginctl and friends.
>> > Useful for a workstation, useless for a server.
>>
>> I wouldn't go this far. libpam-systemd and loginctl can be useful on a
>> server, depening on its job and role.
>
> Let me rephrase. On a typical database server, file server, DNS server
> and/or web server - libpam-systemd is virtually useless.
> The reason for this is - all interactive user logins are used for
> management tasks, not running resource-consuming programs.

There's actually a bug report concerning this very issue (well, the OP
issue as it stood before the inevitable thread bifurcation), which
explains the why, if not the how.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=805449

> Reco
>
>


--
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
In reply to this post by john doe-6
On Wed 14 Aug 2019 at 07:36:21 +0200, john doe wrote:

> Hi Rico, and thanks for your answer.
>
> On 8/13/2019 9:25 PM, Reco wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 08:07:49PM +0200, john doe wrote:
> >> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
> >> doing that
> >
> > Pro: keeping uptime
> > Con: keeping previous, possibly buggy, version for dbus running.
> >
> >> or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
> >
> > dbus is not mandatory and is redundant for typical server software.
> > If you don't need it - just uninstall it. Simple as that.
> >
>
> okay, dbus is only required when a DE (Gnome,Mate, ...) is present.
> If I'm correct, and given the fact that I don't use a DE, I could look
> at safely remove it?

You are not correct. 'apt rdepends dbus' is worth looking at.
>
> In other words, why is dbus a dependency when no DE is installed or what
> are the corner cases when dbus is needed without a DE.

Those setting up a print server would likely not see a corner case here.

--
Brian.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 05:52:39PM +0100, Brian wrote:

[...]

> Those setting up a print server would likely not see a corner case here.

CUPS depends on avahi depends somehow on dbus. Try some day lprng,
works a charm :-)

Cheers
-- t

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 19:14:19 +0200, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 05:52:39PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Those setting up a print server would likely not see a corner case here.
>
> CUPS depends on avahi depends somehow on dbus. Try some day lprng,
> works a charm :-)

I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using last century's technology
if they have their heart set on it. At the same time, I would have a
hard time convincing an enterprise organisation (or someone with a small
home network) that lprng fits seamlessly into today's modern printer
market or the mobile world.

Mangles still squeeze water out of wet, washed linen. But spin dryers
reign supreme in many households. :)

The fact remains that dbus is not a DE only package. How did anyone get
the idea it was? connman on a server would not be out of place. It needs
dbus.

--
Brian.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 19:14:19 +0200, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 05:52:39PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Those setting up a print server would likely not see a corner case here.
>
> CUPS depends on avahi depends somehow on dbus. Try some day lprng,
> works a charm :-)

I forgot: the cups package does not depend on avahi-daemon; it is a
Recommends:. avahi-daemon does depend on dbus.

The OP is setting up a "server". Whatever he means by that is left
unsaid.

--
Brian.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Brian
On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:

> I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using last century's technology
> if they have their heart set on it [...]

C'mon. You /know/ you're talking nonsense. Old is old, and new is new.
Beyond that...

BTW I still use TeX, so... 1980s. Works a charm, too.

Use what works for you, whether old or new doesn't matter

"Enterprise". Something like "mauve" database servers [1]?

Cheers

[1] https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-11-17
    Also last-century. And yes, I've had my stints at enterprises.
    Dilbert is almost always spot-on.

-- t

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 21:05:10 +0200, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using last century's technology
> > if they have their heart set on it [...]
>
> C'mon. You /know/ you're talking nonsense. Old is old, and new is new.
> Beyond that...
>
> BTW I still use TeX, so... 1980s. Works a charm, too.

The technology I am referring to (as I think you very well know) is the
printing system. No more, no less. Nowadays that system often relies on
printer/print queue Bonjour broadcasts. Not only that, but printers have
changed considerable since lprng was conceived and it is completely
unable to handle them. Tex, on the other hand, is still able to handle
document processing.

dbus "...is redundant for typical server software" appears to deserve
some explanation.

> Use what works for you, whether old or new doesn't matter

"old" doesn't work for modern printing systems. Otherwise, I couldn't
care less what a user uses.

--
Brian.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Tixy-2
In reply to this post by Brian
On Thu, 2019-08-15 at 19:41 +0100, Brian wrote:
> The fact remains that dbus is not a DE only package. How did anyone
> get the idea it was?

Perhaps because D-Bus stands for Desktop Bus and according to Wikipedia
[1]

   D-Bus was developed as part of the freedesktop.org project [...] to
   standardize services provided by Linux desktop environments such as
   GNOME and KDE.

It's seems quite reasonable to me for people to jump to the conclusion
that it's not likely relevant for servers.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Bus

--
Tixy

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 22:15:59 +0100, Tixy wrote:

> On Thu, 2019-08-15 at 19:41 +0100, Brian wrote:
> > The fact remains that dbus is not a DE only package. How did anyone
> > get the idea it was?
>
> Perhaps because D-Bus stands for Desktop Bus and according to Wikipedia
> [1]
>
>    D-Bus was developed as part of the freedesktop.org project [...] to
>    standardize services provided by Linux desktop environments such as
>    GNOME and KDE.
>
> It's seems quite reasonable to me for people to jump to the conclusion
> that it's not likely relevant for servers.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Bus

Jumping to conclusions is the ideal way of neglecting facts and promoting
fallacious assertions. I have given two examples that challenge

  dbus "...is redundant for typical server software"

--
Brian.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
In reply to this post by Brian
On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 08:47:34PM +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 21:05:10 +0200, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> >
> > > I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using last century's
> > > technology
> > > if they have their heart set on it [...]
> >
> > C'mon. You /know/ you're talking nonsense. Old is old, and new is
> > new.
> > Beyond that...
> >
> > BTW I still use TeX, so... 1980s. Works a charm, too.
>
> The technology I am referring to (as I think you very well know) is
> the printing system. No more, no less.

Which is last century by itself.


> Nowadays that system often relies on printer/print queue Bonjour
> broadcasts.

And that is called "jumping to conclusions".
Printing itself haven't changed a bit for last 15 years - a print server
takes user's PS or PDF, mangles it to fit printer's representation (be
it PCL or something else), and feeds it to the printer. By utilizing
unicasts of course.
A user can discover a print server via mDNS multicasts (*not*
broadcasts). Or a user can be told a location of such print server.

avahi is useful for discovery of CUPS, and that's about it.


> dbus "...is redundant for typical server software" appears to deserve
> some explanation.
>
> > Use what works for you, whether old or new doesn't matter
>
> "old" doesn't work for modern printing systems.

Of course it does.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
In reply to this post by Brian
On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 10:36:57PM +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 22:15:59 +0100, Tixy wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2019-08-15 at 19:41 +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > The fact remains that dbus is not a DE only package. How did anyone
> > > get the idea it was?
> >
> > Perhaps because D-Bus stands for Desktop Bus and according to Wikipedia
> > [1]
> >
> >    D-Bus was developed as part of the freedesktop.org project [...] to
> >    standardize services provided by Linux desktop environments such as
> >    GNOME and KDE.
> >
> > It's seems quite reasonable to me for people to jump to the conclusion
> > that it's not likely relevant for servers.
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Bus
>
> Jumping to conclusions is the ideal way of neglecting facts and promoting
> fallacious assertions. I have given two examples that challenge
>
>   dbus "...is redundant for typical server software"

The first one being "apt cache rdepends"? You can do better than this.

The second one being CUPS? dbus is not required for printing itself.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

john doe-6
In reply to this post by Brian
On 8/15/2019 6:52 PM, Brian wrote:

> On Wed 14 Aug 2019 at 07:36:21 +0200, john doe wrote:
>
>> Hi Rico, and thanks for your answer.
>>
>> On 8/13/2019 9:25 PM, Reco wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 08:07:49PM +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
>>>> doing that
>>>
>>> Pro: keeping uptime
>>> Con: keeping previous, possibly buggy, version for dbus running.
>>>
>>>> or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
>>>
>>> dbus is not mandatory and is redundant for typical server software.
>>> If you don't need it - just uninstall it. Simple as that.
>>>
>>
>> okay, dbus is only required when a DE (Gnome,Mate, ...) is present.
>> If I'm correct, and given the fact that I don't use a DE, I could look
>> at safely remove it?
>
> You are not correct. 'apt rdepends dbus' is worth looking at.
>>

Okay, as far as I understand it, depends means that it will be pulled as
an dependency but not that it is required for it to work properly.
What I'm starting to realise is that to much dependencies are pulled to
implement lots of feature that is not always necessery.


Before posting to the list, a google search let me think that dbus is
only required when DE is wanted.
Do you have online documentation that would explain why dbus is required
when no DE is used?


P.S.

The Debian bugreport provided in this thread seems to corroborate your
pointbut  I can't find something tangible to back that up.

--
John Doe

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
On Fri 16 Aug 2019 at 11:06:43 +0200, john doe wrote:

> On 8/15/2019 6:52 PM, Brian wrote:
> > On Wed 14 Aug 2019 at 07:36:21 +0200, john doe wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Rico, and thanks for your answer.
> >>
> >> On 8/13/2019 9:25 PM, Reco wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 08:07:49PM +0200, john doe wrote:
> >>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
> >>>> doing that
> >>>
> >>> Pro: keeping uptime
> >>> Con: keeping previous, possibly buggy, version for dbus running.
> >>>
> >>>> or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
> >>>
> >>> dbus is not mandatory and is redundant for typical server software.
> >>> If you don't need it - just uninstall it. Simple as that.
> >>>
> >>
> >> okay, dbus is only required when a DE (Gnome,Mate, ...) is present.
> >> If I'm correct, and given the fact that I don't use a DE, I could look
> >> at safely remove it?
> >
> > You are not correct. 'apt rdepends dbus' is worth looking at.
> >>
>
> Okay, as far as I understand it, depends means that it will be pulled as
> an dependency but not that it is required for it to work properly.
> What I'm starting to realise is that to much dependencies are pulled to
> implement lots of feature that is not always necessery.
>
>
> Before posting to the list, a google search let me think that dbus is
> only required when DE is wanted.
> Do you have online documentation that would explain why dbus is required
> when no DE is used?

As

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dbus/

says:

  > D-Bus is a message bus system, a simple way for applications to
  > talk to one another.

There is no mention of DEs on that page. dbus is for any application to
talk to any other application.
 
> P.S.
>
> The Debian bugreport provided in this thread seems to corroborate your
> pointbut  I can't find something tangible to back that up.

As Reco said:

  > If you don't need it - just uninstall it.

What do you get for 'apt purge dbus'?

--
Brian.

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Brian
In reply to this post by Reco
On Fri 16 Aug 2019 at 09:51:15 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 08:47:34PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 15 Aug 2019 at 21:05:10 +0200, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 07:41:06PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > >
> > > > I wouldn't try to dissuade anyone from using last century's
> > > > technology
> > > > if they have their heart set on it [...]
> > >
> > > C'mon. You /know/ you're talking nonsense. Old is old, and new is
> > > new.
> > > Beyond that...
> > >
> > > BTW I still use TeX, so... 1980s. Works a charm, too.
> >
> > The technology I am referring to (as I think you very well know) is
> > the printing system. No more, no less.
>
> Which is last century by itself.
>
>
> > Nowadays that system often relies on printer/print queue Bonjour
> > broadcasts.
>
> And that is called "jumping to conclusions".
> Printing itself haven't changed a bit for last 15 years - a print server
> takes user's PS or PDF, mangles it to fit printer's representation (be
> it PCL or something else), and feeds it to the printer. By utilizing
> unicasts of course.
> A user can discover a print server via mDNS multicasts (*not*
> broadcasts). Or a user can be told a location of such print server.
>
> avahi is useful for discovery of CUPS, and that's about it.

Printer discovery is an important aspect of a modern printing system.
If a user or institution can get by without it, fine. If not, dbus is
required.

--
Brian.

123