dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

john doe-6
On 8/18/2019 3:19 PM, Brian wrote:

> On Sun 18 Aug 2019 at 12:17:59 +0200, john doe wrote:
>
>> On 8/17/2019 8:15 PM, Brian wrote:
>>> On Tue 13 Aug 2019 at 20:07:49 +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> While upgrading the dbus deamon, I get the following:
>>>>
>>>> "A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon.
>>>> Please reboot the system when convenient."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
>>>> doing that or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
>>>
>>> In the light of Curt's reference to #805449 and your reluctance to
>>> provide any extra information on the server setup you have in mind,
>>> your plan will have to accomodate reality. Reboot and be done with
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>> From reading this thread, here's what I understand:
>>
>> Despide the word desktop being thrown everyware (URL of the page given
>> in this thread, ...) it has now moved to be use or at the very least
>> installed, on non-desktop host.
>>
>> If the above is correct, is there a rule to determine if dbus is required?
>> Relying on apt/apt-get is something that I'm not comfortable with! :)
>
> The -s option to apt could make you feel more comfortable if you are
> concerned about damaging the system. Otherwise, 'aptitude why dbus'.
>

Thank you, Apt/apt-get will do what I tell it to do but what I don't
understand is on what bases should I remove dbus.

In other words, in what cases is dbus not redondent/when do I need dbus
on a non-desktop environment.

--
John Doe

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 04:56:34PM +0200, john doe wrote:

> On 8/18/2019 3:19 PM, Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 18 Aug 2019 at 12:17:59 +0200, john doe wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/17/2019 8:15 PM, Brian wrote:
> >>> On Tue 13 Aug 2019 at 20:07:49 +0200, john doe wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> While upgrading the dbus deamon, I get the following:
> >>>>
> >>>> "A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon.
> >>>> Please reboot the system when convenient."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
> >>>> doing that or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
> >>>
> >>> In the light of Curt's reference to #805449 and your reluctance to
> >>> provide any extra information on the server setup you have in mind,
> >>> your plan will have to accomodate reality. Reboot and be done with
> >>> it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> From reading this thread, here's what I understand:
> >>
> >> Despide the word desktop being thrown everyware (URL of the page given
> >> in this thread, ...) it has now moved to be use or at the very least
> >> installed, on non-desktop host.
> >>
> >> If the above is correct, is there a rule to determine if dbus is required?
> >> Relying on apt/apt-get is something that I'm not comfortable with! :)
> >
> > The -s option to apt could make you feel more comfortable if you are
> > concerned about damaging the system. Otherwise, 'aptitude why dbus'.
> >
>
> Thank you, Apt/apt-get will do what I tell it to do but what I don't
> understand is on what bases should I remove dbus.
>
> In other words, in what cases is dbus not redondent/when do I need dbus
> on a non-desktop environment.

Show us 'apt purge dbus -s' output please.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

john doe-6
On 8/18/2019 4:59 PM, Reco wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 04:56:34PM +0200, john doe wrote:
>> On 8/18/2019 3:19 PM, Brian wrote:
>>> On Sun 18 Aug 2019 at 12:17:59 +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/17/2019 8:15 PM, Brian wrote:
>>>>> On Tue 13 Aug 2019 at 20:07:49 +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While upgrading the dbus deamon, I get the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon.
>>>>>> Please reboot the system when convenient."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
>>>>>> doing that or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
>>>>>
>>>>> In the light of Curt's reference to #805449 and your reluctance to
>>>>> provide any extra information on the server setup you have in mind,
>>>>> your plan will have to accomodate reality. Reboot and be done with
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From reading this thread, here's what I understand:
>>>>
>>>> Despide the word desktop being thrown everyware (URL of the page given
>>>> in this thread, ...) it has now moved to be use or at the very least
>>>> installed, on non-desktop host.
>>>>
>>>> If the above is correct, is there a rule to determine if dbus is required?
>>>> Relying on apt/apt-get is something that I'm not comfortable with! :)
>>>
>>> The -s option to apt could make you feel more comfortable if you are
>>> concerned about damaging the system. Otherwise, 'aptitude why dbus'.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you, Apt/apt-get will do what I tell it to do but what I don't
>> understand is on what bases should I remove dbus.
>>
>> In other words, in what cases is dbus not redondent/when do I need dbus
>> on a non-desktop environment.
>
> Show us 'apt purge dbus -s' output please.
>

If things goes well on this server, which is a test server, I'll
consider purging dbus from my production server(s) on which a reboot is
to be avoided.

Here is the requested output from a test server:

$ apt purge dbus -s
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  dbus* libpam-systemd*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Purg libpam-systemd [241-5]
Purg dbus [1.12.16-1]


Is apt the only way to know if dbus is redundant?


P.S.

Sorry for not providing the output earlier, but I was hoping for a more
general way to determine on which server dbus can be safely removed.

--
John Doe

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
        Hi.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 09:25:56AM +0200, john doe wrote:

> On 8/18/2019 4:59 PM, Reco wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 04:56:34PM +0200, john doe wrote:
> >> On 8/18/2019 3:19 PM, Brian wrote:
> >>> On Sun 18 Aug 2019 at 12:17:59 +0200, john doe wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 8/17/2019 8:15 PM, Brian wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue 13 Aug 2019 at 20:07:49 +0200, john doe wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> While upgrading the dbus deamon, I get the following:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon.
> >>>>>> Please reboot the system when convenient."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
> >>>>>> doing that or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the light of Curt's reference to #805449 and your reluctance to
> >>>>> provide any extra information on the server setup you have in mind,
> >>>>> your plan will have to accomodate reality. Reboot and be done with
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From reading this thread, here's what I understand:
> >>>>
> >>>> Despide the word desktop being thrown everyware (URL of the page given
> >>>> in this thread, ...) it has now moved to be use or at the very least
> >>>> installed, on non-desktop host.
> >>>>
> >>>> If the above is correct, is there a rule to determine if dbus is required?
> >>>> Relying on apt/apt-get is something that I'm not comfortable with! :)
> >>>
> >>> The -s option to apt could make you feel more comfortable if you are
> >>> concerned about damaging the system. Otherwise, 'aptitude why dbus'.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thank you, Apt/apt-get will do what I tell it to do but what I don't
> >> understand is on what bases should I remove dbus.
> >>
> >> In other words, in what cases is dbus not redondent/when do I need dbus
> >> on a non-desktop environment.
> >
> > Show us 'apt purge dbus -s' output please.
>
> If things goes well on this server, which is a test server, I'll
> consider purging dbus from my production server(s) on which a reboot is
> to be avoided.
>
> Here is the requested output from a test server:
>
> $ apt purge dbus -s
<...>
>   dbus* libpam-systemd*

So, dbus is not needed there.


> Is apt the only way to know if dbus is redundant?

No, but it's an easiest one.

Hard one would be to answer "what function this server serves",
following by "what software performs said function", following by "what
the software in question really needs to be operational". Requires
knowing your software and a good memory, as usual.


> Sorry for not providing the output earlier, but I was hoping for a more
> general way to determine on which server dbus can be safely removed.

Replace "dbus" with "some annoying dependency", and you'll see that some
questions are better left answered by machine, not a human.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

john doe-6
Hi Rico, thanks for your answer.

On 8/19/2019 9:37 AM, Reco wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 09:25:56AM +0200, john doe wrote:
>> On 8/18/2019 4:59 PM, Reco wrote:
>>> On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 04:56:34PM +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>> On 8/18/2019 3:19 PM, Brian wrote:
>>>>> On Sun 18 Aug 2019 at 12:17:59 +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/17/2019 8:15 PM, Brian wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue 13 Aug 2019 at 20:07:49 +0200, john doe wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While upgrading the dbus deamon, I get the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "A reboot is required to replace the running dbus-daemon.
>>>>>>>> Please reboot the system when convenient."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no plan to reboot that server, what are the pros and cons of not
>>>>>>>> doing that or how can I avoid rebooting altogether?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the light of Curt's reference to #805449 and your reluctance to
>>>>>>> provide any extra information on the server setup you have in mind,
>>>>>>> your plan will have to accomodate reality. Reboot and be done with
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From reading this thread, here's what I understand:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Despide the word desktop being thrown everyware (URL of the page given
>>>>>> in this thread, ...) it has now moved to be use or at the very least
>>>>>> installed, on non-desktop host.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the above is correct, is there a rule to determine if dbus is required?
>>>>>> Relying on apt/apt-get is something that I'm not comfortable with! :)
>>>>>
>>>>> The -s option to apt could make you feel more comfortable if you are
>>>>> concerned about damaging the system. Otherwise, 'aptitude why dbus'.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Apt/apt-get will do what I tell it to do but what I don't
>>>> understand is on what bases should I remove dbus.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, in what cases is dbus not redondent/when do I need dbus
>>>> on a non-desktop environment.
>>>
>>> Show us 'apt purge dbus -s' output please.
>>
>> If things goes well on this server, which is a test server, I'll
>> consider purging dbus from my production server(s) on which a reboot is
>> to be avoided.
>>
>> Here is the requested output from a test server:
>>
>> $ apt purge dbus -s
> <...>
>>   dbus* libpam-systemd*
>
> So, dbus is not needed there.
>

Okay, one more question, can you give me an example where dbus is
required on a non-desktop env or is cups requiring dbus?

>
>> Is apt the only way to know if dbus is redundant?
>
> No, but it's an easiest one.
>
> Hard one would be to answer "what function this server serves",
> following by "what software performs said function", following by "what
> the software in question really needs to be operational". Requires
> knowing your software and a good memory, as usual.
>
>
>> Sorry for not providing the output earlier, but I was hoping for a more
>> general way to determine on which server dbus can be safely removed.
>
> Replace "dbus" with "some annoying dependency", and you'll see that some
> questions are better left answered by machine, not a human.
>

Duly noted, thanks again.

--
John Doe

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Bastien Durel-4
In reply to this post by Reco
Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 10:37 +0300, Reco a écrit :
> > $ apt purge dbus -s
> <...>
> >    dbus* libpam-systemd*
>
> So, dbus is not needed there.

Hello. Same here, but with dbus removed, my jobs using systemd-nspawn
fails with:

Failed to open system bus: Connection refused

So testing your system after removal may be a good idea, apt insight is
not sufficient ;)

--
Bastien

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
In reply to this post by john doe-6
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 09:54:08AM +0200, john doe wrote:

> >> If things goes well on this server, which is a test server, I'll
> >> consider purging dbus from my production server(s) on which a reboot is
> >> to be avoided.
> >>
> >> Here is the requested output from a test server:
> >>
> >> $ apt purge dbus -s
> > <...>
> >>   dbus* libpam-systemd*
> >
> > So, dbus is not needed there.
> >
>
> Okay, one more question, can you give me an example where dbus is
> required on a non-desktop env or is cups requiring dbus?

Let's see.

firewalld. Yet another netfilter/nft frontend. One of favorite Red Hat
toys.

pacemaker. For those who think that cluster is "it's not down if it's
restarted on a neighbour host".

nfs-ganesha. Userspace NFS server, designed to be run in a container.
Slow as a snail, but is useful to somebody.

teamd. Linux bonding has a huge implementation deficiency - it does not
depend on dbus :) This one does.

avahi-daemon. Was mentioned in this very thread.


And last, but not least - any terminal server, like LTSP.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
In reply to this post by Bastien Durel-4
        Hi.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:23:54AM +0200, Bastien Durel wrote:

> Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 10:37 +0300, Reco a écrit :
> > > $ apt purge dbus -s
> > <...>
> > >    dbus* libpam-systemd*
> >
> > So, dbus is not needed there.
>
> Hello. Same here, but with dbus removed, my jobs using systemd-nspawn
> fails with:
>
> Failed to open system bus: Connection refused
>
> So testing your system after removal may be a good idea, apt insight is
> not sufficient ;)

$ apt show systemd-container | grep dbus
Depends: libacl1 (>= 2.2.23), ..., dbus

apt cannot help you if you're using it wrong.

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Bastien Durel-4
Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 11:54 +0300, Reco a écrit :

> Hi.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:23:54AM +0200, Bastien Durel wrote:
> > Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 10:37 +0300, Reco a écrit :
> > > > $ apt purge dbus -s
> > > <...>
> > > >    dbus* libpam-systemd*
> > >
> > > So, dbus is not needed there.
> >
> > Hello. Same here, but with dbus removed, my jobs using systemd-
> > nspawn
> > fails with:
> >
> > Failed to open system bus: Connection refused
> >
> > So testing your system after removal may be a good idea, apt
> > insight is
> > not sufficient ;)
>
> $ apt show systemd-container | grep dbus
> Depends: libacl1 (>= 2.2.23), ..., dbus
>
> apt cannot help you if you're using it wrong.
>
> Reco
>
Ok, there muste have been an error somewhere ...

root@corrin-2:~# apt-cache policy systemd-container
systemd-container:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 241-5
  Version table:
     241-5 500
        500 http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
PackagesPackages
root@corrin-2:~# dpkg -S /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn
dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn

:/

--
Bastien

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 11:41:33AM +0200, Bastien Durel wrote:

> Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 11:54 +0300, Reco a écrit :
> > Hi.
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:23:54AM +0200, Bastien Durel wrote:
> > > Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 10:37 +0300, Reco a écrit :
> > > > > $ apt purge dbus -s
> > > > <...>
> > > > >    dbus* libpam-systemd*
> > > >
> > > > So, dbus is not needed there.
> > >
> > > Hello. Same here, but with dbus removed, my jobs using systemd-
> > > nspawn
> > > fails with:
> > >
> > > Failed to open system bus: Connection refused
> > >
> > > So testing your system after removal may be a good idea, apt
> > > insight is
> > > not sufficient ;)
> >
> > $ apt show systemd-container | grep dbus
> > Depends: libacl1 (>= 2.2.23), ..., dbus
> >
> > apt cannot help you if you're using it wrong.
>
> Ok, there muste have been an error somewhere ...

And I'd solve it with "apt install systemd-container".

Reco

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Greg Wooledge
In reply to this post by Bastien Durel-4
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 11:41:33AM +0200, Bastien Durel wrote:

> Ok, there muste have been an error somewhere ...
>
> root@corrin-2:~# apt-cache policy systemd-container
> systemd-container:
>   Installed: (none)
>   Candidate: 241-5
>   Version table:
>      241-5 500
>         500 http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
> PackagesPackages
> root@corrin-2:~# dpkg -S /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn
> dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn

Are you saying that you installed systemd-nspawn from something other
than a Debian package, *and* you put it in the /usr/bin directory?
That's a really poor decision -- local add-ons should be in /usr/local
or in /opt.

Also, it appears you were relying on various dependenent packages, like
dbus, without knowing it, since the thing that was actually using them
wasn't installed via the packaging system.  That's something you will
have to track yourself.  There's no way apt can do it for you.

(It's also why I disable apt's autoremove features -- I don't ever want
apt to decide I'm *not* using something, because I do have a bunch of
local add-ons, and apt can't know what's actually safe to remove.)

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Bastien Durel-4
Le lundi 19 août 2019 à 10:15 -0400, Greg Wooledge a écrit :

> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 11:41:33AM +0200, Bastien Durel wrote:
> > Ok, there muste have been an error somewhere ...
> >
> > root@corrin-2:~# apt-cache policy systemd-container
> > systemd-container:
> >   Installed: (none)
> >   Candidate: 241-5
> >   Version table:
> >      241-5 500
> >         500 http://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64
> > PackagesPackages
> > root@corrin-2:~# dpkg -S /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn
> > dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /usr/bin/systemd-nspawn
>
> Are you saying that you installed systemd-nspawn from something other
> than a Debian package, *and* you put it in the /usr/bin directory?
> That's a really poor decision -- local add-ons should be in
> /usr/local
> or in /opt.
>
> Also, it appears you were relying on various dependenent packages,
> like
> dbus, without knowing it, since the thing that was actually using
> them
> wasn't installed via the packaging system.  That's something you will
> have to track yourself.  There's no way apt can do it for you.
>
No, I had a problem during the jessie > strech migration, which leds to
/var/lib/dpkg corruption.
I "recovered" via a manual re-installation of all jessie deb files
found in /var/cache/apt, but some packages seems to have been missing
from dpkg index, despite beeing installed.

I found a few other files related to non-recorded jessie packages in
/usr/bin, like /usr/bin/pydoc3.4 or /usr/bin/mutt-org [1]

I re-installed some of the packages, purged some others, and I won't do
a full reinstall because I'm too lazy ;)

[1] https://paste.debian.net/1096576/

--
Bastien

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

andreimpopescu
In reply to this post by john doe-6
On Lu, 19 aug 19, 09:54:08, john doe wrote:

> Hi Rico, thanks for your answer.
> On 8/19/2019 9:37 AM, Reco wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 09:25:56AM +0200, john doe wrote:
> >>
> >> Here is the requested output from a test server:
> >>
> >> $ apt purge dbus -s
> > <...>
> >>   dbus* libpam-systemd*
> >
> > So, dbus is not needed there.
> >
>
> Okay, one more question, can you give me an example where dbus is
> required on a non-desktop env or is cups requiring dbus?
I believe libpam-systemd (Depends: dbus) is necessary if you need
systemd user instances.

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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Re: dbus-deamon avoiding reboot after upgrade

Reco
        Hi.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:08:10PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Lu, 19 aug 19, 09:54:08, john doe wrote:
> > Hi Rico, thanks for your answer.
> > On 8/19/2019 9:37 AM, Reco wrote:
> > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 09:25:56AM +0200, john doe wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Here is the requested output from a test server:
> > >>
> > >> $ apt purge dbus -s
> > > <...>
> > >>   dbus* libpam-systemd*
> > >
> > > So, dbus is not needed there.
> > >
> >
> > Okay, one more question, can you give me an example where dbus is
> > required on a non-desktop env or is cups requiring dbus?
>
> I believe libpam-systemd (Depends: dbus) is necessary if you need
> systemd user instances.

I'm genuinely interested in a usecase of these on *a server*.

Reco

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