geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

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geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Anil F Duggirala
hello,
I am running Gnome 3 in Debian Buster. I am wondering why, even though
my Location Services are set to Off (and has always been set to Off),
when  I enter the Gnome Maps application, it determines and shows my
location on the map.
thank you,

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 07:49:46AM -0500, Anil F Duggirala wrote:
> hello,
> I am running Gnome 3 in Debian Buster. I am wondering why, even though
> my Location Services are set to Off (and has always been set to Off),
> when  I enter the Gnome Maps application, it determines and shows my
> location on the map.
> thank you,

I'd guess that it relies on your IP address (via some geo IP database).
But I could be wrong.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

David Wright-3
In reply to this post by Anil F Duggirala
On Thu 09 Apr 2020 at 07:49:46 (-0500), Anil F Duggirala wrote:
> I am running Gnome 3 in Debian Buster. I am wondering why, even though
> my Location Services are set to Off (and has always been set to Off),
> when  I enter the Gnome Maps application, it determines and shows my
> location on the map.

Perhaps it simply looks up your IP address. Would I be right in
thinking that you are located in your DC?
(I don't know anything about Gnome Maps or Gnome.)

Cheers,
David.

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

John Hasler-3
In reply to this post by Anil F Duggirala
It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolocation_software
--
John Hasler
[hidden email]
Elmwood, WI USA

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Anil F Duggirala
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, at 11:16 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
> puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
> not.
>
I don't believe this is the case. It's putting me right on the spot where I am. I live in Colombia, I don't know if somehow ISPs here have a more detailed (precise location) database based on IP, or if that is possible at all.
Is there any way I could check to see exactly where Gnome Maps is getting the location from? What is the default geolocation service installed by Gnome or Debian?
thank you,

 

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 08:24:41AM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, at 11:16 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> > It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
> > puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
> > not.
> >
> I don't believe this is the case.

You are, of course, entitled to your beliefs. The source is
over there:

  https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/

I might have had a look, but browsing the repo requires a
javascript-enabled browser, which I refuse to do unless I'm
forced to. And at the moment I can't be bothered cloning the
whole repo to convince you :-)

At this point, your beliefs and those of two-three other
people just differ ;-D

Cheers
-- t

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

John Hasler-3
In reply to this post by Anil F Duggirala
 I wrote:
> It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
> puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
> not.

Anil Felipe Duggirala writes:
> I don't believe this is the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolocation_software
--
John Hasler
[hidden email]
Elmwood, WI USA

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Curt
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
On 2020-04-10, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 08:24:41AM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, at 11:16 AM, John Hasler wrote:
>> > It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
>> > puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
>> > not.
>> >=20
>> I don't believe this is the case.
>
> You are, of course, entitled to your beliefs. The source is
> over there:
>
>   https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/
>

The paradox or enigma here might be the fact that the OP complained in
this forum that his Night Light feature had gotten his location rather
wrong by what we can only assume was the same, IP-based method (before he
presumably manually fed the app his exact longitudinal and latitudinal
coordinates). Which leads you to wonder whether Night Light might
be sharing that user-provided data with Maps.

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Reco
In reply to this post by Anil F Duggirala
        Hi.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 08:24:41AM -0500, Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, at 11:16 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> > It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
> > puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
> > not.
>
> I don't believe this is the case.

The software behaviour does not depend on one's beliefs.

$ apt show gnome-maps | grep Dep
Depends: ... libgeocode-glib0 (>= 3.16.2) ...

$ apt-show libgeocode-glib0 | grep ^Desc
Description: geocoding and reverse geocoding GLib library using Nominatim

And the source of geocode-glib shows the actual server they're using:

GeocodeNominatim *
geocode_nominatim_get_gnome (void)
{
    GeocodeNominatim *backend;

    G_LOCK (backend_nominatim_gnome_lock);
    backend = g_weak_ref_get (&backend_nominatim_gnome);
    if (backend == NULL) {
        backend = geocode_nominatim_new ("https://nominatim.gnome.org",
                                         "[hidden email]");
        g_weak_ref_set (&backend_nominatim_gnome, backend);
    }
    G_UNLOCK (backend_nominatim_gnome_lock);

    return backend;
}


> Is there any way I could check to see exactly where Gnome Maps is getting the location from?

Being the GNOME software? The source is the only way to get sure.
I'd check tcp:443 connections to 8.43.85.23.


> What is the default geolocation service installed by Gnome or Debian?

That depends on your definition of "default Debian install". For
instance, last time I've used netboot I got no such service.

Reco

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

David Wright-3
In reply to this post by Anil F Duggirala
On Fri 10 Apr 2020 at 08:24:41 (-0500), Anil Felipe Duggirala wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, at 11:16 AM, John Hasler wrote:
> > It's just looking up your IP.  The method isn't reliable (it usually
> > puts me on the other side of the state) but it works more often than
> > not.
> >
> I don't believe this is the case. It's putting me right on the spot where I am.

It might be helpful if you would define 'spot'; not that I'm asking
you to give away your precise location, but does Gnome Maps know which
street you are in, or housing estate (your terminology may differ),
or region of the city.

> I live in Colombia,

Yes, I posted that, and with a precision of "district": DC.
Is that district correct, and do you see even more precision?

> I don't know if somehow ISPs here have a more detailed (precise location) database based on IP, or if that is possible at all.

There appear to be several IP→location websites, some free, some subscription.

> Is there any way I could check to see exactly where Gnome Maps is getting the location from? What is the default geolocation service installed by Gnome or Debian?

(Others responded.)

Cheers,
David.

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Curt
In reply to this post by Reco
On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The software behaviour does not depend on one's beliefs.

It does and can quite often depend on *user configuration*, though, and the OP I
believe has informed us he has *turned off* geolocation services.

https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/privacy-location.html.en


--


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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Reco
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:14:33PM -0000, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > The software behaviour does not depend on one's beliefs.
>
> It does and can quite often depend on *user configuration*, though, and the OP I
> believe has informed us he has *turned off* geolocation services.

And GNOME Maps has this neat library as a dependency that can use
geolocation regardless of the said setting.

Reco

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Curt
On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:14:33PM -0000, Curt wrote:
>> On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > The software behaviour does not depend on one's beliefs.
>>
>> It does and can quite often depend on *user configuration*, though, and the OP I
>> believe has informed us he has *turned off* geolocation services.
>
> And GNOME Maps has this neat library as a dependency that can use
> geolocation regardless of the said setting.

So you're saying that Gnome Maps *uses* the geolocation library even in
the case of a user who has explicitly turned that "feature" off in his
privacy settings, in blatant disregard of those settings?

That is really an egregious bug, then, and should be reported.

> Reco
>
>


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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Reco
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:35:01PM -0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:14:33PM -0000, Curt wrote:
> >> On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The software behaviour does not depend on one's beliefs.
> >>
> >> It does and can quite often depend on *user configuration*, though, and the OP I
> >> believe has informed us he has *turned off* geolocation services.
> >
> > And GNOME Maps has this neat library as a dependency that can use
> > geolocation regardless of the said setting.
>
> So you're saying that Gnome Maps *uses* the geolocation library even in
> the case of a user who has explicitly turned that "feature" off in his
> privacy settings, in blatant disregard of those settings?
>
> That is really an egregious bug, then, and should be reported.

I'm saying that it can. Too lazy to dig into the Javascript that GNOME
Maps is written. Explains the behaviour OP's seeing IMO.

Reco

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Curt
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:35:01PM -0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:14:33PM -0000, Curt wrote:
> >> On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The software behaviour does not depend on one's beliefs.
> >>
> >> It does and can quite often depend on *user configuration*, though, and the OP I
> >> believe has informed us he has *turned off* geolocation services.
> >
> > And GNOME Maps has this neat library as a dependency that can use
> > geolocation regardless of the said setting.
>
> So you're saying that Gnome Maps *uses* the geolocation library even in
> the case of a user who has explicitly turned that "feature" off in his
> privacy settings, in blatant disregard of those settings?
>
> That is really an egregious bug, then, and should be reported.
Perhaps just a misunderstanding, and Gnome simply calls
"geolocation" to call into whatever API thingmajig your
smartphone offers to query the GPS+plus+cell-tower position
determination Rube Goldbergism? Falling back to Ip based
guessing when that fails (or is disallowed)?

I just don't know.

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Curt
In reply to this post by Reco
On 2020-04-10, Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> >
>> > And GNOME Maps has this neat library as a dependency that can use
>> > geolocation regardless of the said setting.
>>
>> So you're saying that Gnome Maps *uses* the geolocation library even in
>> the case of a user who has explicitly turned that "feature" off in his
>> privacy settings, in blatant disregard of those settings?
>>
>> That is really an egregious bug, then, and should be reported.
>
> I'm saying that it can. Too lazy to dig into the Javascript that GNOME

We were already aware that Gnome Maps was capable of geolocation (that
it uses X library to do so is orthogonal). The mystery to unravel (or
egregious bug to report) here is that the OP is being geolocated when he
has explicitly turned off that feature in his privacy settings.

> Maps is written. Explains the behaviour OP's seeing IMO.

> Reco
>
>


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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

Curt
In reply to this post by tomas@tuxteam.de
On 2020-04-10, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So you're saying that Gnome Maps *uses* the geolocation library even in
>> the case of a user who has explicitly turned that "feature" off in his
>> privacy settings, in blatant disregard of those settings?
>> That is really an egregious bug, then, and should be reported.

> Perhaps just a misunderstanding, and Gnome simply calls
> "geolocation" to call into whatever API thingmajig your
> smartphone offers to query the GPS+plus+cell-tower position
> determination Rube Goldbergism? Falling back to Ip based
> guessing when that fails (or is disallowed)?
>
> I just don't know.

https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/privacy-location.html.en

 Geolocation, or location services, uses cell tower positioning, GPS, and
 nearby Wi-Fi access points to determine your current location for use in
 setting your timezone and by applications such as Maps. When enabled, it
 is possible for your location to be shared over the network with a great
 deal of precision.

 Turn off the geolocation features of your desktop
 Open the Activities overview and start typing Privacy.

 Click on Privacy to open the panel.

 Switch the Location Services switch to off.

 To re-enable this feature, set the Location Services switch to on.

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

tomas@tuxteam.de
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 04:11:16PM -0000, Curt wrote:
> On 2020-04-10, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

[...]

> > Perhaps just a misunderstanding [...]
> > I just don't know.
>
> https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/privacy-location.html.en
>
>  Geolocation, or location services, uses cell tower positioning, GPS, and
>  nearby Wi-Fi access points to determine your current location for use in
>  setting your timezone and by applications such as Maps. When enabled, it
>  is possible for your location to be shared over the network with a great
>  deal of precision.
>
>  Turn off the geolocation features of your desktop
>  Open the Activities overview and start typing Privacy.
>
>  Click on Privacy to open the panel.
>
>  Switch the Location Services switch to off.
>
>  To re-enable this feature, set the Location Services switch to on.
Ah, thanks for the enlightenment: so it seems, in Gnome terms,
"geolocation" is GPS+cell-tower+WiFi (from Google's database?).

GeoIP is the fallback and not called "geolocation", it seems.

Cheers
-- t

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

David Wright-3
In reply to this post by Curt
On Fri 10 Apr 2020 at 16:11:16 (-0000), Curt wrote:

> On 2020-04-10, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> So you're saying that Gnome Maps *uses* the geolocation library even in
> >> the case of a user who has explicitly turned that "feature" off in his
> >> privacy settings, in blatant disregard of those settings?
> >> That is really an egregious bug, then, and should be reported.
>
> > Perhaps just a misunderstanding, and Gnome simply calls
> > "geolocation" to call into whatever API thingmajig your
> > smartphone offers to query the GPS+plus+cell-tower position
> > determination Rube Goldbergism? Falling back to Ip based
> > guessing when that fails (or is disallowed)?
> >
> > I just don't know.
>
> https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/privacy-location.html.en
>
>  Geolocation, or location services, uses cell tower positioning, GPS, and
>  nearby Wi-Fi access points to determine your current location for use in
>  setting your timezone and by applications such as Maps. When enabled, it
>  is possible for your location to be shared over the network with a great
>  deal of precision.
>
>  Turn off the geolocation features of your desktop
>  Open the Activities overview and start typing Privacy.
>
>  Click on Privacy to open the panel.
>
>  Switch the Location Services switch to off.
>
>  To re-enable this feature, set the Location Services switch to on.

Having all those other methods (cells/GPS/wifi) available is why I'm
asking for information, rather than beliefs, from the OP. Whether they
have a privacy leak would be revealed. There's nothing to prevent
anybody from "determining" a machine's location from its IP address
when it's used to post to a public forum. Even "Columbia" seemed to
surprise the OP, yet their timezone is enough to suggest western
South America if not central North America (currently DST).

Cheers,
David.

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Re: geolocation services disabled and Gnome maps

mick crane
In reply to this post by Anil F Duggirala
On 2020-04-09 13:49, Anil F Duggirala wrote:
> hello,
> I am running Gnome 3 in Debian Buster. I am wondering why, even though
> my Location Services are set to Off (and has always been set to Off),
> when  I enter the Gnome Maps application, it determines and shows my
> location on the map.
> thank you,

What I'm not understanding is why there are these complex window manager
things.
Presumably people want an easy way to click on a picture and make use
some software ?


mick
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