improving the UX with the default KDE installation

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improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
Hi everyone

The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in my
opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
applications installed by default.

While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
least for me, in different occasions I had to:

- manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
setup;
- or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
installation (and break meta-packages).

The main issue is that, in some cases, the applications required recursively
by the package task-kde-desktop are obsolete, bugged and/or are useless
redundancies. I'll make some examples at the end of this e-mail to better
explain my point of view.

I don't know if there are other users considering this as a usability issue
but, in case, and if it is still possible to do something given the freeze of
Stretch, it could be solved by changing the applications listed as
dependencies and recommended by the meta-packages used in the default KDE
installation in Stretch.

I'm working just for myself on a list of packages that can be omitted or
substituted and if someone is interested I can continue in this discussion.

Regards
Francesco


EXAMPLES
========

Let's start with Konqueror, installed by default in the case discussed above.
Despite its history and how interesting it is, we all know that Konqueror
nowadays lacks developer manpower. Its web engines are obsolete and probably
not suitable anymore for a safe web surfing. Surely many of us will not suggest
its usage, especially to newcomers. Firefox and Chromium are far superior web
browsers and, besides, Firefox is recommended by task-kde-desktop and it is
installed in the default KDE installation.

Konqueror can also be used as a file manager but we already have Dolphin, that
I'm sure is considered the de facto file manager in the Plasma desktop,
installed along with it. Konqueror therefore is pretty much useless and
redundant in a standard installation. If it so, why install it by default?

Same story with some of the KDEPIM applications installed by
task-kde-desktop/kde-standard. I'm a Kmail user but like many others I know
that Kmail can be a difficult beast to handle, it has its bugs, akonadi could be
a pain sometimes, and it lacks developer manpower too (and maybe it will be
replaced by Kube in the future).

Despite I'm using Kmail I will probably suggest to other users and newcomers
to try Icedove/Thunderbird instead, or simply use their e-mail accounts via
web browser if it is too much for them. In my opinion Kmail and friends should
not be installed by default.

There are other cases like that or minor redundancies, such as Kate and Kwrite
installed altogether. Why install them both?

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Shawn Sörbom
I agree with you about konqueror, but in the case of kwrite vs kate, I think
the reason is that kate depends on some kwrite components. Technically kate is
also targeted at programmers, whereas kwrite is similar to MS Notepad.
On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 7:01:16 PM PDT fradev wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in
> my opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
> applications installed by default.
>
> While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
> cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
> least for me, in different occasions I had to:
>
> - manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
> setup;
> - or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
> installation (and break meta-packages).
>
> The main issue is that, in some cases, the applications required recursively
> by the package task-kde-desktop are obsolete, bugged and/or are useless
> redundancies. I'll make some examples at the end of this e-mail to better
> explain my point of view.
>
> I don't know if there are other users considering this as a usability issue
> but, in case, and if it is still possible to do something given the freeze
> of Stretch, it could be solved by changing the applications listed as
> dependencies and recommended by the meta-packages used in the default KDE
> installation in Stretch.
>
> I'm working just for myself on a list of packages that can be omitted or
> substituted and if someone is interested I can continue in this discussion.
>
> Regards
> Francesco
>
>
> EXAMPLES
> ========
>
> Let's start with Konqueror, installed by default in the case discussed
> above. Despite its history and how interesting it is, we all know that
> Konqueror nowadays lacks developer manpower. Its web engines are obsolete
> and probably not suitable anymore for a safe web surfing. Surely many of us
> will not suggest its usage, especially to newcomers. Firefox and Chromium
> are far superior web browsers and, besides, Firefox is recommended by
> task-kde-desktop and it is installed in the default KDE installation.
>
> Konqueror can also be used as a file manager but we already have Dolphin,
> that I'm sure is considered the de facto file manager in the Plasma
> desktop, installed along with it. Konqueror therefore is pretty much
> useless and redundant in a standard installation. If it so, why install it
> by default?
>
> Same story with some of the KDEPIM applications installed by
> task-kde-desktop/kde-standard. I'm a Kmail user but like many others I know
> that Kmail can be a difficult beast to handle, it has its bugs, akonadi
> could be a pain sometimes, and it lacks developer manpower too (and maybe
> it will be replaced by Kube in the future).
>
> Despite I'm using Kmail I will probably suggest to other users and newcomers
> to try Icedove/Thunderbird instead, or simply use their e-mail accounts via
> web browser if it is too much for them. In my opinion Kmail and friends
> should not be installed by default.
>
> There are other cases like that or minor redundancies, such as Kate and
> Kwrite installed altogether. Why install them both?


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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Jimmy Johnson-8
In reply to this post by fradevpub
On 03/15/2017 11:20 AM, fradev wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in my
> opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
> applications installed by default.
>
> While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
> cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
> least for me, in different occasions I had to:
>
> - manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
> setup;
> - or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
> installation (and break meta-packages).
>
> The main issue is that, in some cases, the applications required recursively
> by the package task-kde-desktop are obsolete, bugged and/or are useless
> redundancies. I'll make some examples at the end of this e-mail to better
> explain my point of view.
>
> I don't know if there are other users considering this as a usability issue
> but, in case, and if it is still possible to do something given the freeze of
> Stretch, it could be solved by changing the applications listed as
> dependencies and recommended by the meta-packages used in the default KDE
> installation in Stretch.
>
> I'm working just for myself on a list of packages that can be omitted or
> substituted and if someone is interested I can continue in this discussion.
>
> Regards
> Francesco
>
>
> EXAMPLES
> ========
>
> Let's start with Konqueror, installed by default in the case discussed above.
> Despite its history and how interesting it is, we all know that Konqueror
> nowadays lacks developer manpower. Its web engines are obsolete and probably
> not suitable anymore for a safe web surfing. Surely many of us will not suggest
> its usage, especially to newcomers. Firefox and Chromium are far superior web
> browsers and, besides, Firefox is recommended by task-kde-desktop and it is
> installed in the default KDE installation.
>
> Konqueror can also be used as a file manager but we already have Dolphin, that
> I'm sure is considered the de facto file manager in the Plasma desktop,
> installed along with it. Konqueror therefore is pretty much useless and
> redundant in a standard installation. If it so, why install it by default?
>
> Same story with some of the KDEPIM applications installed by
> task-kde-desktop/kde-standard. I'm a Kmail user but like many others I know
> that Kmail can be a difficult beast to handle, it has its bugs, akonadi could be
> a pain sometimes, and it lacks developer manpower too (and maybe it will be
> replaced by Kube in the future).
>
> Despite I'm using Kmail I will probably suggest to other users and newcomers
> to try Icedove/Thunderbird instead, or simply use their e-mail accounts via
> web browser if it is too much for them. In my opinion Kmail and friends should
> not be installed by default.
>
> There are other cases like that or minor redundancies, such as Kate and Kwrite
> installed altogether. Why install them both?

I agree that konqueror is not needee as a web browser but it's great as
a file manager and I think that dolphin is trying to do to much and is
not neeed, konq was here first and is the KDE mascot on top of that.

As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
"debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
the way it should be.  Take a look at "neon-plasma-desktop meta package"
and you will see what I'm talking about.  And I was just thinking about
this yesterday.
--
Jimmy Johnson

KDE Neon - Plasma 5.9.3 - EXT4 at sda7
Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
> the way it should be.

That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a bug
report?

Francesco

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Martin Steigerwald
In reply to this post by fradevpub
Am Mittwoch, 15. März 2017, 19:01:16 CET schrieb fradev:

> The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in
> my opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
> applications installed by default.
>
> While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
> cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
> least for me, in different occasions I had to:
>
> - manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
> setup;
> - or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
> installation (and break meta-packages).

There are metapackages of finer granularity available like kde-standard,
kdegraphics, kdemultimedia.

> EXAMPLES
> ========
>
> Let's start with Konqueror, installed by default in the case discussed

Konqueror is still quite a central part in Plasma. It is used by default for
web shortcuts and for URLS like "man:/ls" oder "info:/".

Of course from a security point of view it would be better to not install it.

> Same story with some of the KDEPIM applications installed by
> task-kde-desktop/kde-standard. I'm a Kmail user but like many others I know
> that Kmail can be a difficult beast to handle, it has its bugs, akonadi
> could be a pain sometimes, and it lacks developer manpower too (and maybe
> it will be replaced by Kube in the future).

For me, and I am a heavy user of KDEPIM, it works reliably meanwhile. I didn´t
recreate Akonadi databases since quite a while. The last time I did, was
because for work IMAP account the MySQL grew beyond any sanity, but that was
an error in my settings as I activated offline storage for mails. Well I did
this due to the extreme unreliability of Exchange IMAP, but that is nothing
Akonadi can be made responsible for. There are some issues with reconnecting
with an unreliable IMAP server within Akonadi… and I would have liked to see a
newer version of Akonadi… but unfortunately it didn´t make it.

Of course one can argue whether to depend on a KDEPIM client with the standard
set of packages for a DE, but… for me at least I am not fond of living in all
those Web 2.0 applications. I want local clients. The Internet has more than
one protocol.

> Despite I'm using Kmail I will probably suggest to other users and newcomers
> to try Icedove/Thunderbird instead, or simply use their e-mail accounts via
> web browser if it is too much for them. In my opinion Kmail and friends
> should not be installed by default.

And Thunderbird has more development activity? *Not at all*.

Also it does not integrate very well with a Plasma desktop. Especially the file
dialog from GTK, which in my opinion provides the worst file dialog I have ever
seen regarding usability.

> There are other cases like that or minor redundancies, such as Kate and
> Kwrite installed altogether. Why install them both?

These are not redundancies. KWrite is a smaller editor for some quick work on
a file, Kate is the extended version of it. It is upstream decision to provide
both and I think it would be extra work for Debian Qt/KDE Team to split out
kwrite from the upstream packaging.

So, you see all of this is arguable. One size does not fit all. Of course there
are distros whose developers make other choices, but I personally like it that
in Debian Plasma is quite close to what upstream provides. I don´t want the
distro to mess around with it more than necessary.

It may be good from a security point of view not to install Konqueror by
default tough. But I am not sure what parts of Plasma desktop would break by
doing so. And it would need to be tested.

And for Jessie I think bigger changes to the default set of packages are not
suitable anymore. If you really see a single package here and there that
absolutely doesn´t make any sense anymore, one that still points at stuff that
was in older KDE SC 4 stuff for example, you are always invited to provide a
bug report for the team to consider.

Just given the freeze Debian is in now… it is most important to provide *very*
*specific* reports. Broader changes like the ones you suggest are, I think, out
of the scope what could still be sensibly done *and* tested in time for
Stretch. So it may be a good idea to bring this up again after the release of
Stretch where Debian Qt/KDE developers have more freedom to make bigger
changes.

All that said: I asked in upstream about Konqueror several times.
Unfortunately its still not very good maintained. Its a pity regarding
webbrowsers. Cause aside from the engines of Chromium and Firefox no one seems
to keep up with recent developments anymore. Unfortunately both engines are
difficult to separate from their browsers. Qt did it with Blink engine in
Chromium, packages in Qt as Qt WebEngine. So far I think they provide a new
version of it with every major release of Qt. How good their security support
for Qt Webengine in older Qt releases is I didn´t evaluate. At least KDEPIM –
not the version in Debian tough – migrated to using Qt WebEngine. But
Konqueror didn´t.

Also there are still some developments at least on KHTML.

Thanks,
--
Martin

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
To be clear, I'm talking about Stretch, Jessie is out of discussion of course.

On 17/03/17 10:48:41 CET, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Konqueror is still quite a central part in Plasma. It is used by default for
> web shortcuts and for URLS like "man:/ls" oder "info:/".

If I read correctly the dependencies tree, Konqueror is strictly required only
by the kde-baseapps metapackage. Meaning that *possibly* the entire Plasma DE
can work without it. But please correct me if I'm wrong. Also, web shortcuts
and URLs invoked with krunner work with Firefox (and I suppose with other
browsers) too.

> Of course from a security point of view it would be better to not install
> it. [...]
> All that said: I asked in upstream about Konqueror several times.
> Unfortunately its still not very good maintained. [...]

Another reason to not install it by default in the next Stable if it is
possible. Available in the repositories yes, but not pre-installed. What
message do we give to users? That we suggest an unmaintained and possibly
insecure application? If I can say, it doesn't suite well with the traits of a
stable release.

> For me, and I am a heavy user of KDEPIM, it works reliably meanwhile.
> [...]
> Of course one can argue whether to depend on a KDEPIM client with the
> standard set of packages for a DE, but… for me at least I am not fond of
> living in all those Web 2.0 applications. I want local clients. The
> Internet has more than one protocol.

I completely agree with you but, as I said, despite the Plasma desktop
provides a good user experience, I might say a good user experience for
everyone, applications such as the KDEPIM suite can be too much for a wider
audience.

And that brings us back on topic. Reformulating my thoughts, what I suggest is
that the default KDE installation in Stretch should provide the Plasma DE with
fewer KDE applications. Meaning that we should shift from installing by
default everything that upstream provides to installing just what is necessary
to have a good working system instead.

"Simple by default, powerful when needed" says the Plasma motto!

> So, you see all of this is arguable. One size does not fit all. Of course
> there are distros whose developers make other choices, but I personally
> like it that in Debian Plasma is quite close to what upstream provides. I
> don´t want the distro to mess around with it more than necessary.
>
> Just given the freeze Debian is in now… it is most important to provide
> *very* *specific* reports. Broader changes like the ones you suggest are, I
> think, out of the scope what could still be sensibly done *and* tested in
> time for Stretch. So it may be a good idea to bring this up again after the
> release of Stretch where Debian Qt/KDE developers have more freedom to make
> bigger changes.

Given that I'm talking about what it is installed by default and not about
what is available in the repositories, Debian would still provide everything
is possible from upstream but only on users request. Furthermore, I'm mainly
talking about removing dependencies and recommendations on *KDE applications*
without touching the Plasma DE itself.

In any case, I agree that tests are required and I'll try to make some and
share the results.

Thank you all for the useful comments.

Francesco

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

inkbottle
In reply to this post by Jimmy Johnson-8
I too vote it out of (almost) compulsory installation:

Konqueror "was" a really great idea, especially, to my mind, through the kpart
things: One could open several Okular document simultaneously, have efficient
tab organization, the possibility to bookmark them simultaneously...
Unfortunately it never worked, since one of the most praised functionality,
the annotation or review tools, never integrated with it -- by the way, this
annotation functionality of Okular still lack support for utf-8, years after
the bug have been reported,
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65956
(I know it's a poppler bug).

Also Konqueror doesn't integrate anymore with plasma, is redundant...

Konqueror depends on *Dolphin4*...

I like the "file size view" feature which I find far superior to "filelight".
This functionality "is" provided by "k4dirstat" (which is an outdated version
of qdirstat, http://kdirstat.sourceforge.net/)
The Konqueror version is faster and more convenient, to my mind.

*kde-plasma-desktop* (package), *depends* on kde-baseapps, which in turn
*depends* on konqueror (and kfind...), which again depend on "outdated
technologies", like *dolphin4*....

The only thing bad if Konqueror is not forced in anymore, is that one will
have to amend wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konqueror).

More and more Kde things are called Plasma nowadays... So suppressing it is
not as bad as if it was called "Pomperor" (sorry about that).






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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Luigi Toscano
On Friday, 17 March 2017 15:57:40 CET inkbottle wrote:

> I too vote it out of (almost) compulsory installation:
>
> Konqueror "was" a really great idea, especially, to my mind, through the
> kpart things: One could open several Okular document simultaneously, have
> efficient tab organization, the possibility to bookmark them
> simultaneously... Unfortunately it never worked, since one of the most
> praised functionality, the annotation or review tools, never integrated
> with it -- by the way, this annotation functionality of Okular still lack
> support for utf-8, years after the bug have been reported,
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65956
> (I know it's a poppler bug).
>
> Also Konqueror doesn't integrate anymore with plasma, is redundant...
>
> Konqueror depends on *Dolphin4*...

Regardless of the general decision about this, just remember that Konqueror
from Applications 16.12 is based on Frameworks. (and dolphin4 is just a small
library anyway).


>
> I like the "file size view" feature which I find far superior to
> "filelight". This functionality "is" provided by "k4dirstat" (which is an
> outdated version of qdirstat, http://kdirstat.sourceforge.net/)
> The Konqueror version is faster and more convenient, to my mind.
>
> *kde-plasma-desktop* (package), *depends* on kde-baseapps, which in turn
> *depends* on konqueror (and kfind...), which again depend on "outdated
> technologies", like *dolphin4*....
This is probably an historical artifact before the split of kde-baseapps
(which happened over time, the last part of the split few months ago).

>
> The only thing bad if Konqueror is not forced in anymore, is that one will
> have to amend wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konqueror).
>
> More and more Kde things are called Plasma nowadays... So suppressing it is
> not as bad as if it was called "Pomperor" (sorry about that).

Another note on naming (which I know that you know, but the sentence above
could be a bit unclear). The number of components of the Plasma project did
not did not change significantly in its history (check the upstream tarballs).


Ciao
--
Luigi


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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Jimmy Johnson-8
In reply to this post by fradevpub
On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:

> On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
>> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
>> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
>> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
>> the way it should be.
>
> That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
> possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a bug
> report?
>
> Francesco

Hello, Francesco, I was thinking as Users we could discuss the options
here first and then make a proposal of the "debian-plasma-desktop" to
the KDE team.

Utilities= ark, kcalc, kwrite, spectacle.

System= bleachbit, kinfo, partition-manager or gparted, konsole,
kwalletmanager, synaptic, dolphin.  Personally I prefer konqueror and
kdf over dolphin, maybe just because I've been using konq and kdf, it
seems like forever.

Settings= systemsettings

Office= okular

Multimedia= vlc, k3b

Internet= firefox, kget

Graphics= gwenview

Things like sddm, plasma-networkmanager, kdeconnect, bluetooth and
wireless should just work.
--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Sid/Testing - Plasma 5.8.6 - EXT4 at sda15
Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Jimmy Johnson-8
In reply to this post by Martin Steigerwald
On 03/17/2017 02:48 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 15. März 2017, 19:01:16 CET schrieb fradev:
>> The default KDE/Plasma 5 installation in Stretch, via task-kde-desktop, in
>> my opinion doesn't provide the best user experience because of the many
>> applications installed by default.
>>
>> While the experience with the Plasma desktop is pretty good, the same
>> cannot be said for some KDE applications. To improve the situation, at
>> least for me, in different occasions I had to:
>>
>> - manually install only the required KDE applications in a minimal Debian
>> setup;
>> - or manually remove all the unwanted KDE applications in the default KDE
>> installation (and break meta-packages).
>
> There are metapackages of finer granularity available like kde-standard,
> kdegraphics, kdemultimedia.


I'm looking at it from the eyes of an average computer user, what they
expect and what to do if something is not there that they
expect(synaptic), fixing users problems. kde-plasma-desktop covers most,
no PIM, that is a personal choice, like you say,install kde-standard if
you want PIM, the average user don't even know how to use a keyboard
like we do, less a personal information manager.  They want to play
dvd's, cd's, watch youtube, play internet games and do Facebook, but
with a lot of them even Facebook is over their head. "Point-N-Click or
Tap" is all they want to do.  The average user is not being creative or
productive while using the computer nor on this list.

regards,
--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Sid/Testing - Plasma 5.8.6 - EXT4 at sda15
Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

rhkramer
In reply to this post by Jimmy Johnson-8
On Monday, March 20, 2017 01:26:28 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:
> > On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> >> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
> >> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
> >> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
> >> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
> >> the way it should be.
> >
> > That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
> > possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a
> > bug report?

> Office= okular

Hmm, somehow I don't think okular fulfills all the needs of office, in my mind
being at least: word processor, spreadsheet, (simple) database, slide maker
(ala powerpoint).  So, I suggest, if you're going to mention / include Firefox
(which you did) that you should also include Libre Office (or the other version
of Libre Office--don't remember the name--does that still exist?)

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Jimmy Johnson-8
On 03/20/2017 06:41 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Monday, March 20, 2017 01:26:28 AM Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> On 03/17/2017 02:44 AM, fradev wrote:
>>> On 15/03/17 13:34:38 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>>> As for the rest of your post I agree and what we need is a
>>>> "debian-plasma-desktop meta package" where it's tested and working
>>>> including kconnect, wireless, bluetooth, vlc, pulse, etc. and keep pim
>>>> to the minimal so the kitchen sink is not added but hardware is working
>>>> the way it should be.
>>>
>>> That's the idea, a functional setup without redundant software. But is it
>>> possible to discuss such a proposal with the KDE team? Should I submit a
>>> bug report?
>
>> Office= okular
>
> Hmm, somehow I don't think okular fulfills all the needs of office, in my mind
> being at least: word processor, spreadsheet, (simple) database, slide maker
> (ala powerpoint).  So, I suggest, if you're going to mention / include Firefox
> (which you did) that you should also include Libre Office (or the other version
> of Libre Office--don't remember the name--does that still exist?)

Well for one thing, someone wanting *office will be able to click
install office, if you want it in you may as well put a typing tutor in
there too.  But kpat, frozen-bubble or texas-holdem would get more use
from the average user.  If we think positive some educational programs
could be added, maybe somethings from child's play or a beginners coding
app, it getting to some family member who has the yearn to be creative
and productive would be a blessing. Maybe you don't know it, but the
average user does not know how to use a keyboard, like putting your
index fingers on the f and j keys, basic typing.
--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.4 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Thom Castermans
2017-03-20 16:11 GMT+01:00 Jimmy Johnson <[hidden email]>:
Maybe you don't know it, but the average user does not know how to use a keyboard, like putting your index fingers on the f and j keys, basic typing.

I think that you are grossly underestimating the average computer user *who is installing KDE on Debian Linux on their computer*.
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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
On 20/03/17 17:02:55 CET, Thom Castermans wrote:
> 2017-03-20 16:11 GMT+01:00 Jimmy Johnson <[hidden email]>:
> > Maybe you don't know it, but the average user does not know how to use a
> > keyboard, like putting your index fingers on the f and j keys, basic
> > typing.
> I think that you are grossly underestimating the average computer user *who
> is installing KDE on Debian Linux on their computer*.

Regardless of users' expertise, the default KDE (and Gnome, XFCE, whatever)
installation should be targeted to the general public. Therefore, a setup not
for power users nor for completely inexperienced users (I don't think they are
the majority in the GNU/Linux realm), where basic components are provided by
default and more advanced features and applications are installable on
request.

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
In reply to this post by Jimmy Johnson-8
On 19/03/17 22:26:28 CET, Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> Hello, Francesco, I was thinking as Users we could discuss the options
> here first and then make a proposal of the "debian-plasma-desktop" to
> the KDE team.
>
> Utilities= ark, kcalc, kwrite, spectacle.
>
> System= bleachbit, kinfo, partition-manager or gparted, konsole,
> kwalletmanager, synaptic, dolphin.  Personally I prefer konqueror and
> kdf over dolphin, maybe just because I've been using konq and kdf, it
> seems like forever.
>
> Settings= systemsettings
>
> Office= okular
>
> Multimedia= vlc, k3b
>
> Internet= firefox, kget
>
> Graphics= gwenview
>
> Things like sddm, plasma-networkmanager, kdeconnect, bluetooth and
> wireless should just work.

Thanks for your suggestions Jimmy. However I'd like to start from the top by
discussing the dependencies required by the *task-kde-desktop* package and
then the other meta-packages.

Here are the dependencies of task-kde-desktop, on the right my suggestions.

task-kde-desktop
  Depends: tasksel
  Depends: task-desktop
  Depends: kde-standard
  Depends: sddm
  Recommends: kdeaccessibility        --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: gnome-orca              --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: k3b                     --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: k3b-i18n                --> change to: Suggests
  Recommends: plasma-nm
  Recommends: kdesudo
  Recommends: libreoffice-kde
  Recommends: apper                   --> substitute with: synaptic
  Recommends: gimp
  Recommends: firefox-esr
  Recommends: libreoffice
  Recommends: libreoffice-help-en-us
  Recommends: mythes-en-us
  Recommends: hunspell-en-us
  Recommends: hyphen-en-us
  Recommends: system-config-printer
  Recommends: dragonplayer            --> substitute with: vlc

# kdeaccessibility and gnome-orca
Accessibility tools not essential in a basic installation, they are needed
only in particular cases. These packages should be marked at most as
"suggested" or removed from the dependency list. IMHO the installation of
accessibility tools should be triggered differently and already via the
debian-installer and not listed here.

# k3b
CD and DVD are not completely abandoned but is a fact that by now they are
superseded by flash drives and other portable storage devices. This package
should be marked as suggested.

# apper
It should be dead upstream (it is written in the changelog!) and the
alternative is plasma-discover that is really bugged. The only sane
alternative is synaptic. IMHO package management should be entrusted to a
distro specific tool. However it remains the issue of updates notifications.
They didn't work, at least for me, nor with apper nor with discover. But with
synaptic only? Maybe we should try pk-update-icon (but it has Gnome
dependencies).

# dragonplayer
It is a really simple player but other applications provide a better user
experience. I prefer smplayer and mpv but I recognize that vlc is a better
choice for the general public and it integrates well with the Plasma Desktop.

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
If someone is still interested in the topic, here it is the list of
dependencies required by the meta-package *kde-standard* (a dependency of
*task-kde-desktop*) with my suggestions on the right.

kde-standard
  Depends: akregator                    --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: ark
  Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
  Depends: gwenview
  Depends: juk                          --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kaddressbook                 --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kate                         --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kcalc
  Depends: kde-plasma-desktop
  Depends: khelpcenter
  Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: knotes                       --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kopete                       --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: korganizer                   --> change to: Suggests
  Depends: kde-spectacle
  Depends: kwalletmanager
  Depends: okular
  Depends: plasma-dataengines-addons
  Depends: plasma-pa
  Depends: plasma-runners-addons
  Depends: plasma-wallpapers-addons
  Depends: plasma-widgets-addons
  Depends: polkit-kde-agent-1
  Depends: sweeper                      --> change to: Suggests
  Breaks: <kde-minimal>
  Recommends: konq-plugins              --> REMOVE
  Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
  Suggests: <kde-l10n>
  Suggests: skanlite


Comments and suggestions are welcome. I'm planning to submit a bug report (as
a wishlist item) in the next days to see if the issue can be discussed with
the maintainers and if something can be done in time for the release of
Stretch.

Francesco

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Jimmy Johnson-8
On 03/30/2017 08:37 AM, fradev wrote:

> If someone is still interested in the topic, here it is the list of
> dependencies required by the meta-package *kde-standard* (a dependency of
> *task-kde-desktop*) with my suggestions on the right.
>
> kde-standard
>   Depends: akregator                    --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: ark
>   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
>   Depends: gwenview
>   Depends: juk                          --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kaddressbook                 --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kate                         --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kcalc
>   Depends: kde-plasma-desktop
>   Depends: khelpcenter
>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: knotes                       --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kopete                       --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: korganizer                   --> change to: Suggests
>   Depends: kde-spectacle
>   Depends: kwalletmanager
>   Depends: okular
>   Depends: plasma-dataengines-addons
>   Depends: plasma-pa
>   Depends: plasma-runners-addons
>   Depends: plasma-wallpapers-addons
>   Depends: plasma-widgets-addons
>   Depends: polkit-kde-agent-1
>   Depends: sweeper                      --> change to: Suggests
>   Breaks: <kde-minimal>
>   Recommends: konq-plugins              --> REMOVE
>   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
>   Suggests: <kde-l10n>
>   Suggests: skanlite

> Comments and suggestions are welcome. I'm planning to submit a bug report (as
> a wishlist item) in the next days to see if the issue can be discussed with
> the maintainers and if something can be done in time for the release of
> Stretch.
>
> Francesco

Hi,

kde-standard installs more than 130 packages that I do not have on any
of my more than 30 installed kde-plasma-desktop's, it's something I will
not install for anybody, kmail along makes no sense, to me it should be
a stand-along application including it's wizards without pulling in
everything PIM.  So to me it's not a usable mail client unless someone
wants all of PIM.  Another thing, on installing kmail it will ask where
you want your folders. WHY?  Why don't it have defaults and then if the
user wants to move the stuff let them.  To me KDE PIM is a big mess and
always has been, but I never was an evolution user either.

I won't use dolphin unless I'm forced to use it and konq-plugins is a
needed package for konqueror.

No auto-updating for me and sweeper over bleachbit is a haha.

I'm no longer a business person, I just make text notes and copy to text
a new recipe once in a while. I haven't needed office in a longtime, but
when office is needed I think open software can't be beat, but is it
needed on every computer? It's fine for kde-standard.

When I started this, I wanted a small list of packages that will work
when installed, kde-connect, bluetooth, wireless.  I go to linux
conference and deb.org person after deb.org person can not configure
wireless and these things just need to work.

KDE does somethings I think are totally WTF, like making oxygen-cursor
mandatory, no matter how many different colors it has, it still has
balls. I guess every version has to have a WTF or it would not be KDE.

I hope you're having a great day!

regards,
--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - Plasma 5.8.6 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

inkbottle
In reply to this post by fradevpub
The bells, the whistles... but at the end of the maypole dance, everyone get
naked.
So let's start with (in) the most simple apparel and add (non mandatory) veils
on demand, instead of the contrary.
And try and help the user to fathom what's necessary from what is convenient
and what is fashionable but somehow superfluous however.

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:37:25 PM CEST fradev wrote:
> If someone is still interested in the topic, here it is the list of
> dependencies required by the meta-package *kde-standard* (a dependency of
> *task-kde-desktop*) with my suggestions on the right.
>
> kde-standard
>   Depends: akregator                    --> change to: Suggests
I never use it
>   Depends: ark
I never use it
>   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
I use mpv, my dragonplayer is set to dummy, actually it's phonon:
I use phonon-backend-null
Did you know that with plasma-pa you can even choose to have bluetooth audio
streaming with mpv?
[or so it would be if that weren't for this bug:
<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58746>]
Anyway, "depend" is too high a constraint for a video player.
>   Depends: gwenview
Never use it: I use "feh" (ok, it doesn't uses orientation indications, but
it's nice)
>   Depends: juk                          --> change to: Suggests
Never use it
>   Depends: kaddressbook                 --> change to: Suggests
Seems nice, never succeeded to make it work; why does it ask me where to
put the data, when I don't even know what it does
>   Depends: kate                         --> change to: Suggests
I use emacs and vim; (whenever they are not to busy making war)
>   Depends: kcalc
Come on! I've got fingers for that (and even a brain sometimes). And Google,
via Firefox can do it too.
>   Depends: kde-plasma-desktop
>   Depends: khelpcenter
There is no useful integrated help (to my mind ;-) ); When I want help about
something: the internet is my friend, and if it's not enough, I come here.
So "suggest" at most.
>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
It has its glitches... But I use it
Don't forget to "akonadictl restart" every now and then; And if you don't have
mail don't jump to conclusion in thinking nobody write to you anymore.
Plus plenty of other issues.
>   Depends: knotes                       --> change to: Suggests
Agree
>   Depends: kopete                       --> change to: Suggests
Agree
>   Depends: korganizer                   --> change to: Suggests
Agree
>   Depends: kde-spectacle
I use "scrot" + "xbindkeys" + "feh" which presents the result automatically;
very efficient
"Depend" is too high: it's not "necessary" in anyway.
>   Depends: kwalletmanager
To my mind it is the best way to loose your data:
it is the epitome of transparency.
I never voluntarily use it; disable it whenever I can.
I use: Keepassx => So I know *what* I've stored, and *where* it is.
Also I've noticed that my WPA password is stored in clear there:
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/
This happened automatically during unofficial (viz. with firmware) netinst.
I wouldn't recommend kwalletmanager to anybody.
Put: export CHROMIUM_FLAGS="$CHROMIUM_FLAGS --password-store=basic"
in your ~/.profile to prevent Chromium from nagging you with Kwallet every
minute.
>   Depends: okular
Even though I'm a fan, depend is a bit too much to my mind.
I would recommend "recommend" here
>   Depends: plasma-dataengines-addons
I'm agnostic about that
>   Depends: plasma-pa
That, I agree with
>   Depends: plasma-runners-addons
>   Depends: plasma-wallpapers-addons
>   Depends: plasma-widgets-addons
>   Depends: polkit-kde-agent-1
>   Depends: sweeper                      --> change to: Suggests
>   Breaks: <kde-minimal>
>   Recommends: konq-plugins              --> REMOVE
>   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
I don't use it + it must use kwallet; so recommend is enough to my mind
>   Suggests: <kde-l10n>
>   Suggests: skanlite

Then "kde-plasma-desktop"
Depends: kde-baseapps
Which in turn

dep: dolphin
Well integrated (to my mind)
dep: kde-baseapps-bin
??
dep: kdepasswd
Recommend or suggest
dep: kfind
?? (is it needed for Baloo?)
dep: konqueror
Recommend or suggest
Note: task-kde-desktop recommends Firefox
So we do already have a web browser.
Actually, it should recommend "www-browser" instead of Konqueror, firefox, or
Chromium...
dep: konsole
I use it, but one might like some other terminal emulator
dep: kwrite
Recommend or suggest
Not Depend, I never ever use it
rec: konqueror-nsplugins


Another thing:
When one does an install with "task-kde-desktop"
one should have a working UI, plus Internet (browser), so that one can fix
what is not already working...

Not every bells and whistles (+ kitchen sink)

Because as it is now, it takes 2 hours to make the install...
and 2 weeks to find out every unnecessary possible things and to put them
away.


All that is mostly a POV thing, so to be taken with the necessary grain of
salt.

Cheers,
Chris

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

fradevpub
On 30/03/17 10:22:20 CEST, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> I won't use dolphin unless I'm forced to use it and konq-plugins is a
> needed package for konqueror.

But if we focus on a setup suitable for the general public, I think dolphin is
good as file manager and well integrated. Instead konqueror (and therefore
konq-plugins), as stated in previous messages, is obsolete and not well
maintained upstream and thus it should at most be suggested but not
recommended.


On 31/03/17 01:41:41 CEST, inkbottle  wrote:
> So let's start with (in) the most simple apparel and add (non mandatory)
> veils on demand, instead of the contrary.
> And try and help the user to fathom what's necessary from what is convenient
> and what is fashionable but somehow superfluous however.

That's a perfect statement.

> >   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
>
> I use mpv, my dragonplayer is set to dummy [...]
> Anyway, "depend" is too high a constraint for a video player.

Mpv is really popular and I use it too but, still, VLC is possibly the
preferred choice by the general public, it provides a good user experience
also for non-techies and it integrates well in the Plasma desktop.
Furthermore, I would not change the type of dependency in order to assure that
in a basic setup users have a mean to play videos and music.

> >   Depends: kcalc
>
> Come on! I've got fingers for that (and even a brain sometimes). And Google,
> via Firefox can do it too.

Hum, however kcalc has advanced features that can be used by students and
technicians. And, of course, it can be used without an internet connection (:

> >   Depends: khelpcenter
>
> There is no useful integrated help (to my mind ;-) ); When I want help about
> something: the internet is my friend, and if it's not enough, I come here.
> So "suggest" at most.

Same here but still I think it can be useful somehow. IMHO documentation and
dedicated help applications must be included in a basic setup to cover any
possible use case.

> >   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
>
> It has its glitches... But I use it

I use it too and I propose to suggest it, and not recommend it, exactly
because it has it glitches and many people probably prefer other clients or
just e-mail web interfaces even when using the Plasma desktop.

> >   Depends: kde-spectacle
> "Depend" is too high: it's not "necessary" in anyway.

I agree, maybe "suggests"?

> >   Depends: kwalletmanager
>
> I never voluntarily use it; disable it whenever I can. [...]
> Also I've noticed that my WPA password is stored in clear there:
> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/
> This happened automatically during unofficial (viz. with firmware) netinst.
> I wouldn't recommend kwalletmanager to anybody.

I didn't know that, is there a bug report for it? I have to say that I use it
just for a couple of things and it proves to be useful some time. But for
serious things I always suggest pass or keepassx. Nevertheless I have no idea
if the Plasma desktop can work without it.

> >   Depends: okular
>
> Even though I'm a fan, depend is a bit too much to my mind.
> I would recommend "recommend" here

Like for the video player, I think users should have a mean to read their
documents in a basic setup.

> >   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
>
> I don't use it + it must use kwallet; so recommend is enough to my mind

I'm reconsidering this and I agree that "recommends" maybe is enough.

 
> Then "kde-plasma-desktop"
> Depends: kde-baseapps
> Which in turn [...]

I'll reply in a next mail. Meanwhile I would like to gather the comments and
firstly draft a bug report for the packages task-kde-desktop and kde-standard
and then proceed in order.

Thank you!

Francesco

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Re: improving the UX with the default KDE installation

Maximiliano Curia-5
¡Hola fradev!

El 2017-03-31 a las 12:19 +0200, fradev escribió:
> On 30/03/17 10:22:20 CEST, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> I won't use dolphin unless I'm forced to use it and konq-plugins is a
>> needed package for konqueror.

> But if we focus on a setup suitable for the general public, I think dolphin is
> good as file manager and well integrated. Instead konqueror (and therefore
> konq-plugins), as stated in previous messages, is obsolete and not well
> maintained upstream and thus it should at most be suggested but not
> recommended.

>>>   Depends: dragonplayer                 --> substitute with: vlc
>> I use mpv, my dragonplayer is set to dummy [...]
>> Anyway, "depend" is too high a constraint for a video player.
> Mpv is really popular and I use it too but, still, VLC is possibly the
> preferred choice by the general public, it provides a good user experience
> also for non-techies and it integrates well in the Plasma desktop.
> Furthermore, I would not change the type of dependency in order to assure that
> in a basic setup users have a mean to play videos and music.

Mmh, I'm not sure about this. Surely dragonplayer is underused, and vlc and/or
mplayer/mpv are way more popular, but dradonplayer is well integrated with the
desktop.

>>>   Depends: kcalc
>> Come on! I've got fingers for that (and even a brain sometimes). And Google,
>> via Firefox can do it too.
> Hum, however kcalc has advanced features that can be used by students and
> technicians. And, of course, it can be used without an internet connection (:

Please, avoid the bikesheding, kcalc is a rather small app, and an useful tool
to have.

>>>   Depends: khelpcenter
>> There is no useful integrated help (to my mind ;-) ); When I want help about
>> something: the internet is my friend, and if it's not enough, I come here.
>> So "suggest" at most.
> Same here but still I think it can be useful somehow. IMHO documentation and
> dedicated help applications must be included in a basic setup to cover any
> possible use case.

The basic documentation of the applications needs to be installed in the the
standard installation. khelpcenter needs to be present after installing the
kde tasksel option.

>>>   Depends: kmail                        --> change to: Suggests
>> It has its glitches... But I use it
> I use it too and I propose to suggest it, and not recommend it, exactly
> because it has it glitches and many people probably prefer other clients or
> just e-mail web interfaces even when using the Plasma desktop.

I think that kde-standard needs to provide kmail, even if kmail is
"glitchy", btw, it works way better than the one in jessie. The same goes for
korganizer. kaddressbook and knotes are required for a sane kmail and
korganizer installation respectively.

I have no opinion on akregator.

>>>   Depends: kde-spectacle
>> "Depend" is too high: it's not "necessary" in anyway.
> I agree, maybe "suggests"?

kde-spectacle is the default snapshot tool, and small enough to even consider
a change. Please, avoid this kind of suggestions, they invalidate the rest of
the proposal.

>>>   Depends: kwalletmanager
>> I never voluntarily use it; disable it whenever I can. [...]
>> Also I've noticed that my WPA password is stored in clear there:
>> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/
>> This happened automatically during unofficial (viz. with firmware) netinst.
>> I wouldn't recommend kwalletmanager to anybody.
> I didn't know that, is there a bug report for it? I have to say that I use it
> just for a couple of things and it proves to be useful some time. But for
> serious things I always suggest pass or keepassx. Nevertheless I have no idea
> if the Plasma desktop can work without it.
kwalletmanager is the configuration tool, libkf5wallet-bin is the package that
provides the kwallet, and half the desktop depends on it, so it can't be
easily removed. By removing kwalletmanager you end up with no way to "manage"
your running kwallet.

>>>   Depends: okular
>> Even though I'm a fan, depend is a bit too much to my mind.
>> I would recommend "recommend" here
> Like for the video player, I think users should have a mean to read their
> documents in a basic setup.

Currently I'm recommending qpdfview, but this might change once okular is
migrated to kf5.

>>>   Recommends: plasma-nm                 --> change to: Depends
>> I don't use it + it must use kwallet; so recommend is enough to my mind
> I'm reconsidering this and I agree that "recommends" maybe is enough.

This is a recommends so the ones that prefer a different network management
tool, like wicd, can use it without removing kde-standard.

>> Then "kde-plasma-desktop"
>> Depends: kde-baseapps
>> Which in turn [...]
>
> I'll reply in a next mail. Meanwhile I would like to gather the comments and
> firstly draft a bug report for the packages task-kde-desktop and kde-standard
> and then proceed in order.

Many of the maintainers, including myself, also read this list, so if you
prepare a diff of the changes with a rationale for each change we'll consider
them. But please take into account that statements like "I don't use it" are no
reason enough to drop a dependency as the specific tool surely provides a
functionality to the desktop user.

Happy hacking,
--
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."
-- Alan Kay
 Saludos /\/\ /\ >< `/

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